Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I'll agree that the game is probably uninteresting for your average joe spectator. Two robots might be fighting over capping the center goal at the end of the match, but chances are someone in the stands doesn't know what's so important about putting it there until after the match is over. Last year, hang from the bar, get 50 points, big finish. This year, cap the center goal, get 3 points, or 13 points, or 23, 33, or 43.

Also, I'll agree with the lack of variety this year. The one real thing you can do is pick up a tetra to score points. Either you stack it, or you didn't manage to make a good enough arm and you toss it underneath. So there's only so much variety to be seen in designs when everyone has to concentrate on doing the exact same thing. I saw two crazy screw contraptions for picking up tetras at GLR. You'd think that'd be unique enough to only find one at a regional, but everyone has to do the exact same thing, so no.

Aside: From what I've seen of all the scoring displays, etc., it looks like FIRST has gone with a completely new scoring system this year and they're still working all the bugs out. Last year's system was mostly brand new as well. (I think the software was based on some team's prior efforts) Last year there were lots of glitches and oddness in the first couple of weeks, and even all the way till Lone Star when I was running it. By Atlanta, last year's scoring system was working very well, so one can hope that they'll get all the bugs out of this year's new system by then as well.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

wow, no one has said water/some sort of liquid yet

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I hope they give up thoughts of having water in the game for good.
It's really a crazy idea.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

Just remember in life, it is not the game but how you play it. Personally I see this year's game or any year very exciting considering all the way different robots are built and all have to accomplish the same task. Chess to me is not an exciting game but those who play do their best to win. If you decided before you started to build a robot this year and then you did not like the game then maybe should have dropped off the team.

Life's challenges is what makes life interesting.

Watching TV is boring. :rolleyes:

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I think the most exciting part is watching the robots get past the end zone line within the last few seconds of the match for the extra points.

At Rochester (Finger Lakes Regional), there were many matches that had 5-10 minutes in between. Referees were busy determining the score, and the field people were always busy trying to fix the computer that ran the field. This may have been boring for an Average Joe audience.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

We were involved in one of my personal favorite moments. We were in the endzone, but one corner of our bot was still sticking out just a little. We have 2-wheel drive with casters in all four corners. It's designed to have the casters at one end a little off the ground for easier turning and traction on slightly uneven circumstances. We are also a ground-hugger with only a 1/2-inch ground clearance. Since the refs couldn't see under our robot even by laying on the ground, they eventually had to slide a piece of notebook paper under that corner caster to see if it was touching. It wasn't -- we got the 10 points and won. :]

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I would have to agree that the game wasn't as exciting because there wasn't a huge finish, but I also think that this game was a step in the right direction. The past two years there was one thing that a team could do to get big points (hang from a bar, get on a platform). The large point value at the end made most of the points scored in the rest of the game pretty much pointless.

This year there was no huge point scoring object that made the rest of the game pointless. Inherently, this made the game less exciting at the end.

Another problem with this years game was (as stated before) the lack of different strategy - you either scored tetras, or blocked. This also led to a
bit less exciting game.

I think FIRST made a good step by eliminating a huge scoring object, but fell flat in multiple, smaller ways to score. FIRST needs to find a game where there is opportunity for different strategy, but no one strategy overrides the others

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I just got back from the Florida regional, and I think that the big finish this year is sufficiently big.

As for the what-just-happened and is-that-illegal thing, I'll throw a concept out here. Suppose that instead of throwing cloth flags during a match (which most of the time the audience can't see), the refs punched them into handhelds (a la real-time scouting)? With a bit of Wi-Fi tinkering, it could then tie in with real-time scoring, and if it were done well enough could be displayed on the screen (instead of that ginormous field drawing).

This year's game would be easy enough to throw flags on handhelds. Imagine the following screen shot (in pure ASCII art), if you will...

Or even simplify it further to a red square and a blue square--tap to throw a flag. If anyone can actually do such a thing, go right ahead.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

this is my first year with high school first robotics, but i agree that allowing robots to diversify in structure, and not just strategy, would make the game more exciting.

pnw was very exciting during the elimination rounds, though. esp. in the semifinals, and that first match vs. alliance one, tying 40-40. blocking in mid-air, consistent capping on both alliances, and just barely making it home made my heart skip a beat. and i do think the joe shmoe audience found it interesting too..

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

"Re: What is missing from this years game?"

In a single acronym - KISS.

What ever happened to that "You design next year's game" post from last fall? Didn't it say to design a game that could be described in 30 seconds or less, and should be easy for the crowd to score?"

OK - time me!
The game begins with a 15 second autonomous period where the robot's software pilots them to find the green thingy tetrahedron (look it up in Websters) and place it on one of the goals across the center of the field, which are also tetrahedrons (well, eight of them are, and the other one is too, but only the top) but are not the same size as the other tetrahedrons. Or, the robot can knock down a tetrahedron (like the others, but not the same as a goal) that's hanging inside another tetrahedron, which is a goal. But the goal is to dislodge the non-goal so that it's not touching the carpet outside the goal. Or, the robot, but just one on each side, can start with a tetrahedron and put it someplace - preferably inside or on top of a goal; but they don't get the bonus they would have had they picked up and scored the green thingy tetrahedron, which they only get if they do it in the first fifteen seconds. The goals are easy to find because they have a yellow triangle under them. Of course, if a player touches a tetrahedron during this fifteen second period - actually 18 or 20 seconds because the crew has to have time to un-hang the tetrahedrons that hadn't been un-hung and to place the bonus tetrahedrons that nobody seems to get - they get a 10 point penalty, which is equal to either 4, or 6, or 8, or 10 scored tetrahedrons, depending on how and where they were scored, unless they were de-scored, when they'd be worth either 3 points and ownership, or nothing at all, depending on how they were de-scored.

The next two minutes really gets complicated, because the auto loader isn't human and the human loader has to stay on his pad until the robot enters the zone (a red or blue triangle, which is like a tetrahedron in two-space). But the robot doesn't enter the zone by entering the zone space, it enters the zone by touching in two-space. Then the human can place a tetrahedron on the robot. If she touches the robot, it gets disabled, which it already was because she left her pad, but now it stays disabled even if she returns to her pad, which she can't because the referee won't let her. If she doesn't touch the ground in the box with both feet, or the robot isn't touching the triangle the team gets a 10 point penalty. She should also get a penalty if she leaves the rectangle, which is not the box because the box is inside the rectangle, but nobody seems to know what the penalty is because the referees don't call it because there's not enough room to stay inside the rectangle and still avoid the ref, cameraman, loose tetrahedrons, and other human players who are also trying to stay inside the rectangle in order to reach the box and place a tetrahedron without touching the robot, which has to be touching the triangle. The same is true for the auto loader except that it doesn't have a pad, it's OK if it touches the robot, and it doesn't have a box nor a rectangle.

The goal is to score more goals than the other team, and/or to make more tic-tac-toes, and/or to get back home. Of course, the real goal is to get fewer penalties than the other guys because some of them count more than, three, or ten, or thirty of the scoring possibilities - depending on where and who it was, and/or how the infraction and/or the goal was either committed, and/or occurred, and/or was scored, or de-scored.

And that's all there is to it!

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I think I post from a unique point of view in this case. My team is competing this coming weekend at BMR and then the weekend after at MWR, but I had friends to see and really needed some of that competition soul, so off I went to GLR...totally teamless.

My first impressions of this game slide between "random person" and "cheer on teams you know of or random other teams". I really enjoyed the game at the level that I knew the teams on the field and enjoyed watching the intesnity and focus of the event. I think the game was planned well to incorporate strategy. Sure, this isn't going to be a quick fix to the inspiration of random people issue, but is any game? Last year I heard people discussing the pros and cons too, but come Atlanta, attitudes change, and priorities change. So find yourself a pet Average Joe, and get them hyped: introduce them to a friend, to your team, and most importantly into your community, because that sense of team ethics is where the true inspiration lies.

My Dad, who has never been to a FIRST comp, stated blatantly in my presence how exciting it was in comparison to my school's "silly sporting stuff." In essence, you will have a difficult time getting the average average joe. However, though it may sound like some whacky theory to some of you, I feel as though this game was a lesson to every individual in inspiration, whether or not it was intended. Once myself and Pat McCarthy (67) explained the game to my dad, he loved it. It's important to communicate the priorities of the program in your behavior and your explanation, not just in what your robots do.

Good luck to everyone :)
- Genia

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I noticed this also early on...Friday morning/afternoon at BAE was for the most part kind of boring, unless you really had an idea of what was actually going on. I don't think it really got interesting until the final matches.

Whats missing would be an immidiate understanding of whats going on. Last year you could get an idea because it was fairly simple...with so many things to do/ so many penalties this year it's hard for someone thats never even seen the game to really get an idea of whats going on.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I agree... It was reeeeaaalllly monotonous (<- spelling?) until the final matches because it was basically the same thing over and over again, but the atmosphere was really exciting.. Plus most of the people there (with the exception of 99% of the FIRSTers) had absolutely NO clue what was happening most of the time...

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

i havent been to a regional yet this year so my mind may change by the end of this week. but right from kickoff i wasnt very fond of this game. 2003 was my favorite year. this game does lack that big finish. i also thought last years lacked one too but what made up for it was all the different ways to score. the finishes werent asbig but they were there. 2003 there was king of the hill. it was exciting everytime. last year there were many was of finishing. hanging, capping, or the human players shooting. this year doesnt seem exciting to me. there is only one major way to score. everyone has the same goals. but i think the playoffs would be exciting where there is crazy stacking going on and its close but my mind could change by the end of this week.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

[quote=MORT~11]Red has there home row all capped, and the side 2 of the middle row......Blue also has there home row all capped, but the center goal......Blue makes a move down to the red home zone with a 10 seconds left and caps their middle goal, giving a 23 point swing to the blue alliance....a VERY big difference, but it still just looks like they capped a regular goal[quote]

we did that at GLR and it helped us win the first round and eventually make it to the finals