What is missing from this years game?
 

OK...I'm SURE there's a thread somewhere about this already, but I searched and couldn't find it.

So, I attended the Great Lakes Regional this past weekend and had many family members there along with a lot of co-workers.

And while those of us who are deeply involved with FIRST might have a totally different opinion due to the fact that we all have our favorite teams to root for or against, here is their common opinion of the game.

It's boring.

And most everyone left after an hour or two.

And, from the people who have seen the game the last two years I have been involved, it's missing the big, exciting ending the king of the hill or the 10 ft bar or the double ball provided the last two years. It was easy for them to figure out what needed to happen for each side to win the match. It was something to cheer for.

This year the big ending is the adding up the penalties. And several time watching the matches, the group of us each added up the points and we all had different answers.

I guess the point of this thread is for whoever is reading this and might have some input for the future games, if you want to keep the interest of the people off the street who might get excited about FIRST and want to get involved in the future, please think about this.

And, please, I know some people are going to post about how they are wrong and how exciting this game really is. I think it's exciting. But, I am just relaying what I was told by at least 20 people this weekend...

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

For anybody in FIRST this game is going to be exciting, cmon it has robots in it....but like you said for the off the street comer, it does look kinda boring.

True, the past 2 years there has been a "big finish" type of thing for the last couple of seconds. That "big finish" still exists, its just that it looks like the rest of the game...for example:

Red has there home row all capped, and the side 2 of the middle row......Blue also has there home row all capped, but the center goal......Blue makes a move down to the red home zone with a 10 seconds left and caps their middle goal, giving a 23 point swing to the blue alliance....a VERY big difference, but it still just looks like they capped a regular goal

I think this game is great, but I can see how some people may think that its not.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

yeah, definitely a big ending would help. I cant really speak from first hand experience yet because my Regional hasn't happened yet, but from watching the videos teams put up i think that passing the line at the end of the match isn't big enough and it might be more interesting if there was more human player involvement(not just having people load tetras).

The Game still kicks $@#$@#$@# though

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

You must have had a really boring regional. The Orlando Regional at the UCF Arena was incredible to watch. I was exhausted watching the final matches (warning: NEVER PLAY HALO2 UNTIL 2:00am BEFORE THE FINAL DAY), but I still was finding it to be so fun to watch. Even though my team placed 24th(/47), it was great to just watch the matches and see all of the incredible scoring that some teams like 233 (The Pink Team) or 1402 (Freedom Force) were pulling off.

I also noticed that our regional had less penalties than VCU had. While VCU refs were dishing out penalties, the only ones that we saw were for the occasional bumping while in the loading zone or the accidental tap of a tetra while not in the loading zone.

If you have another regional/nats, just ignore what happened at your last regional, and hope it turns out to be a better competition.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

What is missing from this years game?
Updated information from the regionals.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I finally got a chance to watch some of the regional footage this weekend - a friend gave me a tape of the peachtree regional. I have to agree. I started out loving the game, and all of the last minute tetra placements, and collisions, and capping, and blocking, and re-capping. But after it was all over, none of the great on-field action seemed to matter much. Perhaps it'd be easier to watch if the penalties were kept up real time on the scoreboard with the rest of the points, instead of being a nasty surprise at the end. That would have a great effect on the game's watchability.

All that said, I do like the game - it is neat to watch, and I'm sure that teams will get better at avoiding penalites as the competitions go on.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I agree that this game is exciting. I think it's cool and a great challenge to score, and to see teams do it effortlessly, really impresses me. And, there was excitement at our regional...

But, I still think it has a lot to do with the fact that we (as FIRSTers) know the game well. And we know how amazingly hard it is to build and program a robot to find a vision tetra, let alone cap one in autonomous.

But, to the casual observer off the street and to younger kids we want to inspire, it seems repetitive and lacking of an exciting ending. One person even mentioned, "They just kept doing the same thing over and over again...just putting the triangle things on top".

Again, I am just relaying the comments I got.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

Robot diversification.
Last year... ball gatherers ball catchers, hanger, cappers, bar defenders, goal grabbers...
This year... goal capper, tetra gatherer (for alliance to cap or to place under goal), or defender...

There are 4 ways to gain points this year... and I think about 30 ways to lose points, it is a different game, relying almost solely upon strategy.

I am pretty sure I will like it...but I won't know until thursday ;) .
See ya' at Chessy!!

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

compared to previous years games... this game doesnt have the big finish. i'm sure you find this game interesting, and i'm sure that all of us involved in FIRST feel the same way. but i see the point that is being brought up here... for the average person knowing nothing about FIRST, this is as boring as playing tic tac toe. the previous games had the "big finish" in fighting for the bar and king of the hill, which made it fun for the average non-firster to watch.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

IMHO (I was at GLR too), I understand what you're saying about it being boring after awhile and everything, but I think it's the game itself that you are talking about. For our parents, friends, and sponsors, it was the atmosphere that interested them (loud music, funny mascots, the pits, the cheers...) because a lot of them don't picture robotics to be like a sports event. That's my take. :o

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I agree. Although I haven't seen a whole regional yet, I have seen a few matches. My initial opinion from kickoff still stands....there's really only one thing to do. In previous years, even 2002, there were a few things for the robots to be good at. I liked last year the best, where there could be the best capper, hanger, and ball gatherer, and each one would have the chance to win. What is it this year? The best capper, the best capper, and the best capper. There isn't really any varioaton.

My brother is a Freshman on the killer bees now, and he saw last year's game from a general public standpoint and this year's game from the standpoint of a team member, and he said that it's too hard to keep score this year. He noted that last year you could look at the field and pretty much know who won, whereas this year it's harder than that. I also heard that he heard from a bunch of people that the game is just boring to watch.

With that said, I'm hoping that as teams get more used to the game, I think it will get more interesting to watch and we should see some interesting battles for rows.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I think this year you have a big start, not a finish. (Although I might be biased because i'm a programmer) I think the best part of the match is seeing what robots will do in autonomous.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

At the PNW regional, this didn't seem to be the case. I had heard that the game was going to be boring, but it seemed to remain fairly exciting, with lots of back-and forth action throughout the day, even during the elimination matches.

Well, it seems that its clear enough that with 10 seconds left and a tetra being raised to cap the center goal that will decide the outcomeof the match... that's something to cheer for. Maybe what you really mean is that the dynamic of the game didn't suddenly change with about 30 seconds to go, because the end zone bonus was so small?

Once again, not so much the case at the PNW regional. We had our share of penalties, but in general, they didn't decide the matches like I have heard they did in so many other regionals. Almost all of the games that I saw were very clean. Many had no penalties at all. The winning alliance, for example, went penalty free throughout finals.

I don't think you're wrong, per se. Lots of other people have been saying the same thing - and there's no denying that people actually told you that it was boring. I am just under the impression taht the PNW regional actaully was exciting. I would like to hear otherwise from a spectator if that was not the case, however. But I think the lower incidence of penalties, and the vast swings in points for caping a single goal, and the back-and-forth nature of many of the elimination matches (several ties, several comeback wins) made the PNW more exciting. Of course, I am one of the invovled people, so maybe this isn't the ase, and as I said, I would like to know what spectators thought.

Well, I think everyone and their dog will have input on how to make the games better, but here are the ones I can think of (my head still hurtsfrom yesterday, so maybe I won't remember everything):

The biggest thing is, STOP the glitches! At the PNW regional, the first thing all our schoolmates saw when arriving Saturday morning on the TRC Booster Bus was - an hour of dancing. The field equipment was malfunctioning, so alternate forms of entertainment had to be employed. The equipment malfunctioned AGAIN at the startof finals, this time for an hour and a half. Thats a lot of wasted time for the spectators.

But onto the real list: games should borrow more heavily from popular sports:

• In the three big ones in this country (Football, Baseball, Basketball), play stops on a regular basis, which allows spectators to catch up on what just happened.
• Games are longer. This allows more strategic play and more comeback opportunities. Also endurance becomes an issue.
• Fouls are called immediately (so the result of a particular play is never in question for long)
• The scoring system is simple enough that it is never unclear who is winning, and what the opposing alliance needs to do to come back

These are the things that make sports so compelling to watch. These are why when your favorite football team is down by 21 points in the fourth quarter, you don't give up all hope. This is why these sports have attracted millions of fans. I believe that if FIRST were to borrow more heavily from what makes popular sports compelling, the FIRST games would become more compelling.

I know it must be an extremely difficult task to create a unique game each year that is exciting for the teams and spectators alike, but here are some ideas that perhaps the game design committe could take into consideration:

• More visually interesting, achieveable autonomous modes (TRC-492 mentor Larry Barello has some good ideas that I don't entirely recall - I'll try to have him follow up on this thread)
• Longer matches - say, five minutes. Maybe bigger batteries if thats what it takes. This is to let the games develop more.
• Stop play for penalties. This will scoring easier to follow.
• Implement an on-the-field timeout. Say, one one-minute timeout per alliance per game to allow alliances to reconstruct their strategies if they are falling behind. I don't know if this is a good idea, actually. Let me know.
• Automatic scoring system. It's very hard for a human to keep track of the scoring of these games real-time, so let a computer do it! This is once again to keep the audience informed of the score accurately at all times.
• Consider games where the score only goes up, not back down again, just like all the major sports. Sure, in this game you could not "descore" a tetra, but you could drop an opposing alliance's score by 40 points in one move. I personally liked that, but I'm not ure how intuitive it would be to follow.

Well, I've gone on long enough I think... I'd like to hear other people's ideas.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

How about accurate information for the regionals?

According to the PNW regional results, TRC-492 lost two games (nope), was seeded third (nope), played itself twice in the finals (nope), and there was only one qualification match (nope), which occured after the playoffs (nope)...

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

Agreed, variation in robots has always been FIRST's trademark. But somehow, that variation in robot construction turned into variation in strategy. With all the robots able to do the same thing, strategy becomes essential. During build season, when teams were showcasing their robots on CD, I saw that each robot looked just like the one before it, with the only variation being the lift mechanism, be it an arm or forklift.

I highly doubt that FIRST overlooked this aspect of the game, and the more likely scenario is that FIRST wants us to focus more on strategy, rather than design. In past years, pre-match alliance meetings were over in minutes, but now, each of our meetings were up to 5 minutes, even 10 sometimes. And our pre-elimination meeting took from the end of alliance pairings to the beginning of elims.

I'm not so sure how I feel about this shift in tactics by FIRST. I would have prefered variations robot design AND emphasis on strategy.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I'll agree that the game is probably uninteresting for your average joe spectator. Two robots might be fighting over capping the center goal at the end of the match, but chances are someone in the stands doesn't know what's so important about putting it there until after the match is over. Last year, hang from the bar, get 50 points, big finish. This year, cap the center goal, get 3 points, or 13 points, or 23, 33, or 43.

Also, I'll agree with the lack of variety this year. The one real thing you can do is pick up a tetra to score points. Either you stack it, or you didn't manage to make a good enough arm and you toss it underneath. So there's only so much variety to be seen in designs when everyone has to concentrate on doing the exact same thing. I saw two crazy screw contraptions for picking up tetras at GLR. You'd think that'd be unique enough to only find one at a regional, but everyone has to do the exact same thing, so no.

Aside: From what I've seen of all the scoring displays, etc., it looks like FIRST has gone with a completely new scoring system this year and they're still working all the bugs out. Last year's system was mostly brand new as well. (I think the software was based on some team's prior efforts) Last year there were lots of glitches and oddness in the first couple of weeks, and even all the way till Lone Star when I was running it. By Atlanta, last year's scoring system was working very well, so one can hope that they'll get all the bugs out of this year's new system by then as well.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

wow, no one has said water/some sort of liquid yet

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I hope they give up thoughts of having water in the game for good.
It's really a crazy idea.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

Just remember in life, it is not the game but how you play it. Personally I see this year's game or any year very exciting considering all the way different robots are built and all have to accomplish the same task. Chess to me is not an exciting game but those who play do their best to win. If you decided before you started to build a robot this year and then you did not like the game then maybe should have dropped off the team.

Life's challenges is what makes life interesting.

Watching TV is boring. :rolleyes:

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I think the most exciting part is watching the robots get past the end zone line within the last few seconds of the match for the extra points.

At Rochester (Finger Lakes Regional), there were many matches that had 5-10 minutes in between. Referees were busy determining the score, and the field people were always busy trying to fix the computer that ran the field. This may have been boring for an Average Joe audience.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

We were involved in one of my personal favorite moments. We were in the endzone, but one corner of our bot was still sticking out just a little. We have 2-wheel drive with casters in all four corners. It's designed to have the casters at one end a little off the ground for easier turning and traction on slightly uneven circumstances. We are also a ground-hugger with only a 1/2-inch ground clearance. Since the refs couldn't see under our robot even by laying on the ground, they eventually had to slide a piece of notebook paper under that corner caster to see if it was touching. It wasn't -- we got the 10 points and won. :]

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I would have to agree that the game wasn't as exciting because there wasn't a huge finish, but I also think that this game was a step in the right direction. The past two years there was one thing that a team could do to get big points (hang from a bar, get on a platform). The large point value at the end made most of the points scored in the rest of the game pretty much pointless.

This year there was no huge point scoring object that made the rest of the game pointless. Inherently, this made the game less exciting at the end.

Another problem with this years game was (as stated before) the lack of different strategy - you either scored tetras, or blocked. This also led to a
bit less exciting game.

I think FIRST made a good step by eliminating a huge scoring object, but fell flat in multiple, smaller ways to score. FIRST needs to find a game where there is opportunity for different strategy, but no one strategy overrides the others

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I just got back from the Florida regional, and I think that the big finish this year is sufficiently big.

As for the what-just-happened and is-that-illegal thing, I'll throw a concept out here. Suppose that instead of throwing cloth flags during a match (which most of the time the audience can't see), the refs punched them into handhelds (a la real-time scouting)? With a bit of Wi-Fi tinkering, it could then tie in with real-time scoring, and if it were done well enough could be displayed on the screen (instead of that ginormous field drawing).

This year's game would be easy enough to throw flags on handhelds. Imagine the following screen shot (in pure ASCII art), if you will...

Or even simplify it further to a red square and a blue square--tap to throw a flag. If anyone can actually do such a thing, go right ahead.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

this is my first year with high school first robotics, but i agree that allowing robots to diversify in structure, and not just strategy, would make the game more exciting.

pnw was very exciting during the elimination rounds, though. esp. in the semifinals, and that first match vs. alliance one, tying 40-40. blocking in mid-air, consistent capping on both alliances, and just barely making it home made my heart skip a beat. and i do think the joe shmoe audience found it interesting too..

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

"Re: What is missing from this years game?"

In a single acronym - KISS.

What ever happened to that "You design next year's game" post from last fall? Didn't it say to design a game that could be described in 30 seconds or less, and should be easy for the crowd to score?"

OK - time me!
The game begins with a 15 second autonomous period where the robot's software pilots them to find the green thingy tetrahedron (look it up in Websters) and place it on one of the goals across the center of the field, which are also tetrahedrons (well, eight of them are, and the other one is too, but only the top) but are not the same size as the other tetrahedrons. Or, the robot can knock down a tetrahedron (like the others, but not the same as a goal) that's hanging inside another tetrahedron, which is a goal. But the goal is to dislodge the non-goal so that it's not touching the carpet outside the goal. Or, the robot, but just one on each side, can start with a tetrahedron and put it someplace - preferably inside or on top of a goal; but they don't get the bonus they would have had they picked up and scored the green thingy tetrahedron, which they only get if they do it in the first fifteen seconds. The goals are easy to find because they have a yellow triangle under them. Of course, if a player touches a tetrahedron during this fifteen second period - actually 18 or 20 seconds because the crew has to have time to un-hang the tetrahedrons that hadn't been un-hung and to place the bonus tetrahedrons that nobody seems to get - they get a 10 point penalty, which is equal to either 4, or 6, or 8, or 10 scored tetrahedrons, depending on how and where they were scored, unless they were de-scored, when they'd be worth either 3 points and ownership, or nothing at all, depending on how they were de-scored.

The next two minutes really gets complicated, because the auto loader isn't human and the human loader has to stay on his pad until the robot enters the zone (a red or blue triangle, which is like a tetrahedron in two-space). But the robot doesn't enter the zone by entering the zone space, it enters the zone by touching in two-space. Then the human can place a tetrahedron on the robot. If she touches the robot, it gets disabled, which it already was because she left her pad, but now it stays disabled even if she returns to her pad, which she can't because the referee won't let her. If she doesn't touch the ground in the box with both feet, or the robot isn't touching the triangle the team gets a 10 point penalty. She should also get a penalty if she leaves the rectangle, which is not the box because the box is inside the rectangle, but nobody seems to know what the penalty is because the referees don't call it because there's not enough room to stay inside the rectangle and still avoid the ref, cameraman, loose tetrahedrons, and other human players who are also trying to stay inside the rectangle in order to reach the box and place a tetrahedron without touching the robot, which has to be touching the triangle. The same is true for the auto loader except that it doesn't have a pad, it's OK if it touches the robot, and it doesn't have a box nor a rectangle.

The goal is to score more goals than the other team, and/or to make more tic-tac-toes, and/or to get back home. Of course, the real goal is to get fewer penalties than the other guys because some of them count more than, three, or ten, or thirty of the scoring possibilities - depending on where and who it was, and/or how the infraction and/or the goal was either committed, and/or occurred, and/or was scored, or de-scored.

And that's all there is to it!

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I think I post from a unique point of view in this case. My team is competing this coming weekend at BMR and then the weekend after at MWR, but I had friends to see and really needed some of that competition soul, so off I went to GLR...totally teamless.

My first impressions of this game slide between "random person" and "cheer on teams you know of or random other teams". I really enjoyed the game at the level that I knew the teams on the field and enjoyed watching the intesnity and focus of the event. I think the game was planned well to incorporate strategy. Sure, this isn't going to be a quick fix to the inspiration of random people issue, but is any game? Last year I heard people discussing the pros and cons too, but come Atlanta, attitudes change, and priorities change. So find yourself a pet Average Joe, and get them hyped: introduce them to a friend, to your team, and most importantly into your community, because that sense of team ethics is where the true inspiration lies.

My Dad, who has never been to a FIRST comp, stated blatantly in my presence how exciting it was in comparison to my school's "silly sporting stuff." In essence, you will have a difficult time getting the average average joe. However, though it may sound like some whacky theory to some of you, I feel as though this game was a lesson to every individual in inspiration, whether or not it was intended. Once myself and Pat McCarthy (67) explained the game to my dad, he loved it. It's important to communicate the priorities of the program in your behavior and your explanation, not just in what your robots do.

Good luck to everyone :)
- Genia

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I noticed this also early on...Friday morning/afternoon at BAE was for the most part kind of boring, unless you really had an idea of what was actually going on. I don't think it really got interesting until the final matches.

Whats missing would be an immidiate understanding of whats going on. Last year you could get an idea because it was fairly simple...with so many things to do/ so many penalties this year it's hard for someone thats never even seen the game to really get an idea of whats going on.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I agree... It was reeeeaaalllly monotonous (<- spelling?) until the final matches because it was basically the same thing over and over again, but the atmosphere was really exciting.. Plus most of the people there (with the exception of 99% of the FIRSTers) had absolutely NO clue what was happening most of the time...

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

i havent been to a regional yet this year so my mind may change by the end of this week. but right from kickoff i wasnt very fond of this game. 2003 was my favorite year. this game does lack that big finish. i also thought last years lacked one too but what made up for it was all the different ways to score. the finishes werent asbig but they were there. 2003 there was king of the hill. it was exciting everytime. last year there were many was of finishing. hanging, capping, or the human players shooting. this year doesnt seem exciting to me. there is only one major way to score. everyone has the same goals. but i think the playoffs would be exciting where there is crazy stacking going on and its close but my mind could change by the end of this week.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

[quote=MORT~11]Red has there home row all capped, and the side 2 of the middle row......Blue also has there home row all capped, but the center goal......Blue makes a move down to the red home zone with a 10 seconds left and caps their middle goal, giving a 23 point swing to the blue alliance....a VERY big difference, but it still just looks like they capped a regular goal[quote]

we did that at GLR and it helped us win the first round and eventually make it to the finals

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

In a word. Nothing.

This is a great game. If we want to knit-pnick, we could use an additional task to provide scoring... like creating a stack of tetras on the ground or something like that, but all in all, Triple Play stands very well on its own.

One thing that is missing from last year is the 10, 20, 30 (or even greater) seconds at the end of the match with robots hanging around and time simply ticking away. What is also missing from previous year's games is the element that scores so high (or multiplies the score) that once it is accomplished, the opposing alliance might as well shut down.

As far as "audience off the street" goes, we all know that FIRST must do a much better job at getting people to go to the event at all... Having said that, Triple Play is really easy to follow. Tell people to look for the rows. Rows win the game. At the end of the round, count the tetras & count the rows - you'll have a good idea who wins. Once you realize that high scores are in the rows, the game is very exciting.

BTW, none of the "popular sports" games (football, etc.) have a "big finish". They are all "everyone doing the same thing over and over".

To the Game Design Team: Thank you for Triple Play!

-Mr. Van
Coach, 599
(Game Announcer at PNWR)

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

ok, so two years ago, it was easy you push crates into the carpet thats your robots color, one point per box and 25 points for being on top of a platform at the end. (stacks didn't come into play much at my regionals)

last year, you put balls (which were labelled with point values, very average Joe friendly) into your goals and then hang from a bar, and you can tell very easily if a team hangs (they are swinging around)

this year put put stuff wherever, and its worth random (and small) point values. then you dont go behoind the line because its not strategic and dont get a bonus at the end.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

interesting way of putting it, but a good point nonetheless.

I would have liked it much better if they explained the score somehow after every match. It becomes VERY confusing when trying to figure out what's capped and whats not and goal is owned by whom. So by the end of the first day I just didn't bother and just trusted the score, but I hear that in Arizona Regional, they messed up the scoring/ranking; that's no good.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

My mom (59 years young) loved the game - she thought it was exciting. Came from Cleveland to watch us at GLR. She liked watching the different arms lifting the things into the air. And she liked it when some of them fell over.

But she also said she had no idea how to win, how to score, and she also thought the refs didn't know how to score it either. (Due to the long break after the game ended and the score was announced.)

So, she was utterly confused, but thought it was interesting to watch anyways. Visually a very cool game, but hard to understand.

Kinda like watching underwater shark tag on ESPN 2 at 3:00am. Wild to watch, but I don't get it.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

The announcer at GLR did a good job explaining penalties. I hear that there were many fewer than the first week regionals. I liked the game. It gave our team (a 2nd year team) a fighting chance.

Also, given that Team 66 was the only team I saw or have heard of to score a vision tetra, I would not say that the game was too easy. Otherwise, I think we all would be able to do it. It is as hard as the autonomous was last year. Last year we accomplished it once in a practice round. This year we pushed a vision tetra but could never lift it.

I thought it was exciting this year.

It may be that FIRST was looking for a way for teams to not drop out. It seemed that lots of teams did not come back this year. I am not sure if it was funding or what. Some Regionals did not fill up this year. If they make it too challenging they run the risk of teams dropping out. This year they said their goal was to allow all teams to build a robot that could compete and yet challenge the long term teams to dig deeper and do more with the code and strategy. It was fun to see that each team had a chance.

I can hardly wait to see what next year brings.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

When the game was revealed this year I felt that the excitement of going to the bar (last year) was absent. I realized, however, that there is a need to make significant changes from year to year.

Last year, I watched my son's Rookie team in Manchester, and luckily, in Atlanta. There was plenty of excitement - a robot lifting itself off the ground - wow!

This year I was a spectator at Manchester, and I mentored a Rookie team at UTC. There is excitement this year also, but it is much more dependent on the quality of the match-ups and the skill of the drive teams.

I feel the ease with which penalties are called in this year's game is a real problem. The field is so small that it makes it difficult for the referees to judge whether contact in the loading zone is incidental or intentional. The penalties are so severe, (since point totals tend to be low) that there is no way to know for sure who's winning until the final score is put up on the board.

I'm sure that some penalties occur because of the difficulty of the drivers to have a clear line of sight over the field. I thought that there was an inconsistency in the way penalties were called at the two competitions that I saw. I know that this is subject to rules interpretation by the judges, and they have a difficult job. Basically, I don't think that this year's game is an easy one to judge, and minor differences in interpretation seem to cause a big swing in match play results.

Having 6 'bots in play at once gives everybody more playing time, but the resulting chaos makes it more difficult to follow and therefore to enjoy.

I was also disappointed in how few teams were able to do significant damage in autonomous mode. I suppose that task difficulty can only really be assessed when the matches are played.

Can it be that the game is really secondary? It remains a vehicle for testing the abilities of the team. Our rookie group feels pretty good about the challenges that they met and what they learned along the way. Judging from the smiles, the levels of concentration, and the attitudes that they exhibited throughout the tournament, I think that the prime objective was achieved.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

First off, the exciting part is supposed to be over. The six weeks from kick-off to ship is the real challenge, and thus, the real game is over.
However, if the excitement, diversity and ease of understanding from the previous two years is missing, it could have an impact on the future if this years game doesn't have the same effect. While it's great for all the "FIRSTer's" who understand the rules and complexity of the game, the FIRST timers are going to have a tough time getting excited about something they don't understand and can't follow. Our team wound up with a lot more adult mentors and volunteers this year because they got swept up with the intensity and excitement of last years regional events. Some even endured an 18 hour bus ride so they could attend the nationals. From an adult mentor's standpoint, it's hard to see all the parents just drop off their kids day after day, night after night and not bother to get involved and find out what a great program their kids are involved in. It was great to see the reaction of parents who attended their first "robotics competition" and have a look on their face like a five year old at Disneyland. The more people who can be introduced to FIRST in a way they could never expect (a fun and exciting way), the more mentors and volunteers we could draw who would be willing to make the sacrifice of time, money, sleep, nutrition and home repair/remodeling to help nurture and mold the minds that will shape our future. So if you see someone new this year watching with a puzzled look, or about to nod off, do you're best to help them understand the game/rules and get them excited about them competition.
Good luck to all!

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I can understand your concern about parents, but all of the parents that came with us to the St. Louis regional picked up the game very quickly. They also got very enthused and excited, which was awesome. I can't even begin to explain how good it made me feel to see that "Disneyland" look on thier faces.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

Yes, 2003 was the best at being a great spectator game. But we just got to remember that the best way to enjoy the game is to get involved with a team as Nickens said. For the parents and visitors that came to watch us at our regional, those that really dug it, we're the same ones who came to the kickoff and on weekends to help. My brother-in-law came by to check things out and he didn't seem that thrilled - but that was his first experience to FIRST.

I don't think FIRST needs to be a great spectator sport, if that were the goal, the game would never change, most teams would be "losers" and they'd charge admission (sometimes I think that might be good).

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

My concern was with the students, but the the parents can help the program grow by also getting involved.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

i think the onlything missing from this game is a multiplier...i think it would be cool to have a differnt color tetra (maybe the vision tetras) act as multipliers for the tetras of that color on a goal. it definatly would add an extra kick to the game

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

well 2000vfr800 has a good point about ppl off the street being interested about FIRST (which is the point of FIRST, make ppl -- outside tech -- get inspired and excited about technology and its fun), but since I have not been to the regional yet and have not heard off 'off-street' ppl, I will make my comments on the game later on. :)

interesting thread tho

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I really want to thank everyone here for posting their thoughts on this subject. I really had no idea it would draw so much interest. And thanks for keeping it very civil. I appreciate it.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

This game is…

Awesome!

1. It’s up to us to help Grandma understand and score. Maybe someone with skills can draw up this idea as a one page hand-out for upcoming regionals.
After about three matches at GLR I realized counting tetras was difficult. Instead, I would cancel tetras. First, count rows scored, one team will usually end up plus 1, plus two etc. Then start with tetra’s, one red cancels one blue so you only have to count plus one, minus one etc. Often the home rows would cancel each other entirely. After lunch on Friday I was able to know who won 90% of the time in about 5 seconds.
2. The refs and the teams improved hugely between week 1 and 2. Many teams were able to go through an entire comp with no penalties. The refs got a lot more comfortable with interpreting the rules. In one match a GLR a team got clobbered in the Auto load zone. The ref asked if their intent was to load and they graciously said no. There was no penalty. (They lost the match). I don’t think that happened in week one.
3. I’m really looking forward to week 3 and beyond, Good Luck to all teams.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

Well this year game is not as good as some of the others but its OK
i like last year game a lot more.

This years game it missing the SAFETY. Some of the judges and field reseter at the Peachtree regional nearly hit in head with tetras.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/at...achmentid=2765 What a Great Program that is. Very Impressive

Thats whats missing right there. Real time scoring. I dont understand for the life of me why there wasnt some sort of live scoring program. Perhaps it was just the Finger Lakes Regional but i havnt heard of any other regionals having live scoring. I think that If FIRST had incorperated this program or something VERY similar then the fans could not only watch the game but watch the screen for LIVE scoring. At any other sporting event you know the score the whole time. i dont think that this should be any different.It would solve the spectator confusion problems. So thats what i think is missing the most.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

When I first saw the game, and from what I saw and heard from Dean, Woodie, and Dave, they wanted the idea of making rows, columns, and diagnonals as the big finish, but that didn't pan out.

Now, I know FIRST won't change the game now, but here is my idea. It's simple, easy to implement, and very cheap. It involves only a little bit of rules change and a small modification to the center goal.

My idea is to have a hanging, yellow tetra in the middle goal. This would hang like the ones on the side of the field. The yellow tetra underneight the goal would be 3 points, ontop of the goal it would double the points in the goal. BUT, there is one downside, when stacked it turns the ownership the goal to both teams, so if placed on your endzone it would possible hurt you. The yellow tetra would only multiply the capped tetras underneight the yellow one, and the yellow tetra can be removed and placed on other goals.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

this game was amazing... i loved it

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

Hmm I can name one this about what is missing. The ability to throw the tetra. Have you noticed in the past couple years Human Players have been able to toss a ball or some sort of round object. I guess you could throw a tetra but that would probably be kind of dangerous.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

I think FIRST just took more time on creating the gearbox, chaise, and the camera than the game. But it did help out the new teams. Having a new shape to try to pick up was nice, and made you think, but it was almost like the game wasn't complicated enough. Don't get me wrong, it was a complicated game, but the things that you could do with the tetras was limited. I agree that there should be a big finish, something that could make the alliances win or loose the game. I do have to hand it to FIRST, though, for thinking all this up, and it was a really fun game. It just wasn't made for audiences to like, it was made for teams to like.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

Well, after a second tournament, My opinions might be swayed a little. But, not totally in the opposite direction.

Again, I can't speak for the casual observer since I'm not one, but as the season has progressed and people have figured out the game, the game has gotten more exciting. I still think it's missing the big "you know if they get something, they will win" ending, but it's still exciting.

But, I also think this game is much more complex that previous games. The practice field at West Michigan ALWAYS had people and robots on it...and not just rookie teams. Well established teams were there practicing, working on autonomous, etc... I don't remember that last year at all.

So, this should lead to a very exciting Championship event. I can't wait.

Re: What is missing from this years game?
 

the following is quite long, but I think very true,

I love this year’s game, I think they did an excellent job of simplifying the game, while still keeping it challenging. (Something Dean tried to convey at the kick off.) In the past years, the challenge has kept getting more and more complex, up to the point where last year you had to: hang from a pole, corral balls, move goals, cap goals, and try to climb stairs in one robot! (or blindly hope that you alliance partners would complement your abilities.) It was nearly impossible to try and focus on trying to do everything last year, and I'm sure it was a nightmare for the rookie teams. In the end all the robots could do was try and push each other around. Last years competition turned into some idiotic battle-bots game with the only reward having to watch other robots push yours around.

This year’s game is completely different. Autonomous mode is more of what it should be, something complex and challenging that wields a strong reward for completing. I think it's sad that at the sight of an actually challenging autonomous challenge, most teams cowered and didn’t even try. While the vision thing is new and some things need to be ironed out, autonomous isn’t supposed to be some easy thing on the side. And as with the game, this year robot is actually scoring the points, a much more invigorating notion, and the robot only has to have one ability, but can try to do multiple and increasingly complex things with it. This allows rookies and veterans to complement and help each other, and to compete on the same level, just in different ways. I actually think this year’s game is more exciting. The only people that find it boring are those that are sitting there dumbly not thinking. Since the points are scored with large, visible objects instead of stupid little balls (a nightmare to manipulate), you can psychologically participate and actually think, “Ok, they have 18 and we have 9, we can form one row and still win,” leading to some very tense and exciting matches. I also think that the matches do have exciting endings, in the last 10 seconds when you’re screaming and praying that your robot can cap that goal and win the game, or miss and lose, it can be very nerve racking. Unlike last year, idiotic ramming and pushing doesn’t do any good, while strategic positioning and blockading can greatly benefit your strategy and game play. The game also moves from one match to the next faster because the robots are encouraged to get back to starting positions instead of being left in a tangle dangling from a pole.

I think this year FIRST really stepped back and looked at was wrong with the game, and truly endeavored to fix it. While the general populous may not find it as exciting or climactic, it is much more inspiring and invigorating on an innovative, technological, and fair level, which is what FIRST is truly about.




P.S. To answer what is missing, I would say a better set of rules more designed to this game, its strategy, and to the sensitivity of color recognition (i.e.: forbidding substantial yellow and green objects like caution tape on the field.) This lack of adequate rules has led to so many strange penalties.