Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

So here's a bizarre, possbily embarrassing topic. :]

What's the highest-seeded team NOT chosen to be on one of the eight final alliances in your tournament? We finished seeded 17th of 37 in our regional (we should have finished around 10th, but we made some mistakes in team operation that will NEVER happen again), and were not chosen. The embarrassing part is that three robots that WERE chosen didn't score a single point in the finals. One of them was a "brave little toaster" that didn't have an arm. Or the ability to turn. (To make it a little more poignant, we gave them materials and fixed their software for them.)

So, how many 17th seeds don't get picked? We were the highest non-chosen team in our regional. Another embarrassing fact, now that I think of it.

Some facts: Three times (don't laugh) we went onto the field without testing our arm only to find out that someone had failed to seat a cable in a Victor correctly. We lost all three of those. In the rounds where we didn't do something stupid, we went 5-1, scoring an average of four tetras per round. Our only other loss was when an alliance partner racked up 40 points in penalties in a match where we would have won by 16 (and they got chosen for the finals after finishing seeded about 30th).

Hey, I'm not complaining. It was our fault. We could have picked up two more wins if we hadn't shot ourselves in the arm. Or hand. Whatever.

Still, at least eight robots seeded lower than us were chosen. Is this unusual, or Just the Way Things Are? Thanks.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Team 73 the Visioneers were seeded 13th and not chosen at FLR.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Over time, you personally will see more and more of this. Teams will get "overlooked" because they don't have a noticeable name, they are a rookie team (although now it is not so true as rookies are not "true rookies" anymore), and teams will pick teams just because they are "friends". The lowest I know that has been overlooked was 13th/14th and that was in 2003 at the Championship.

It would be interesting to have the data to know if a team lower has been overlooked, as usually at least 9 & 10 get bumped into Alliance Positioning.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

14th/47 at the Orlando Regional. If two more teams had merged that were choosing alliance partners, they would have been picking teams themselves.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

2003 Championships my team was ranked 16th out of about 70, and we were not chosen for alliances. That was the year we had won Great Lakes too.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

I think that was Children of the Swamp.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

What really must be embarrasing, or at least would make you feel "ungracious", is sitting there wishing someone would break.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Would any team in that position not feel that way?
It may not be graciously professional but everybody wants to play.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

What was?

Anyway. I went and checked the details. We were 15th out of 73 in the Archimedes Division, and weren't picked, but I can imagine with 73 teams to scout it wouldn't be difficult too miss something. Especially because that our the first year in blue (as opposed to yellow in previous years) and first year as the hammerheads.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

oh... I know who you're talking about..

alliance 8 REALLY slipped up there. also, and this is hearsay... I heard 955 was just about to get picked by alliance 1 as pick two, but then 8 chose them. :(

i remember your guys' wooden bot (who doesn't), and it really was very impressive. i am feeling your pain.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

This has happened to many teams out there...I can recall in 2002 my team was around 11th and didn't get picked. I was mad and so was my team but hey we learned our lesson and since then we have been as outgoing and noticeable as possible with flyers brochures and things like that. Not getting chosen is just a part of the FIRST experience sometimes...and most fairly new teams come out better for it.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Back in 2002 at nationals we were seeded 11th in Einstein and didn't get picked.

The last picking team was seed #10.

We lost our last match like 52-50 to 16... we would have been the #1 or #2 seed had we won :rolleyes:

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

2002 Nationals 10th Seed, we were 4th the entire competiiton until our last match we lost and that dropped us to 10th, and only one alliance from the top 8 was made.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Alot of times what happens when you're a high seed for a long time teams forget that you're not in the top 8 and for that reason are not on their lists of teams to pick. (happened to us in 2002).

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Yeah, we were in the top 7 all weekend until our last match. That can be a part of it. Another part is not selling yourself to other teams. It's especially critical to do so when you're in a division with 70 something other teams, where any one team can be easily overlooked.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

We were 11th in our division at Epcot in 2001 but were overlooked. Turns out a few of the teams who failed to pick us could have used a reliable big ball scorer, something we had proven to be throughout the competition. 'Tis a pity. But yes, it happens, and ya just have to deal with it. There'll be other days when you seed low, you do get picked, and you help your alliance achieve success in the elims.

Based mainly upon what happened during the 2001 season, 48 started to reach out and try to be a more helpful and well known team in 2002. We're still working on that....

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

I was with a team in 2002,that was on a winning regional alliance, that was 12th seed at Epcot with an almost flawless performance and didn't get picked. That was a huge learning experience year. We watched in amazement as robots were picked that were really low in the seedings (high numbers). It was like a bolt of lightening hitting that year.

There is so much more to this than how good your robot is. It's about people knowing how good your robot is. Who actually saw your robot performing? It's about whether your team is easy to work with. It's about how you are perceived. It's not always fair. It is like life.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

just my opinion, but i personally do not put any faith in seeded position.

seeding relies almost exclusively on your partners, especially with so many penalty possibilities. if you have less than perfect partners for many matches than you may seed low, even though you are exceptional. on the opposite side many teams who seed high often get there on the backs of other good robots.

we rely solely on our scouting and knowledge of robots to choose complimentary partners, whether they are seeded first or last. if you are a good bot and end up seeded in the middle, but don't get picked, its most likely that people don't know you, didn't see you perform at your best regularly, or don't need your particular skill set.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Well here are a few things I think are common in Alliance Picking:

Lower numbered teams usually pick lower numbered teams.
Rookies usually pick rookies.
Teams that know local teams or have "family" teams usually pick their local friends or local "family".
When I say family; I mean teams that have branched off of one certain team.
For example my team branched off of one team that had several high schools involved way back in the years of FIRST and now most of these high schools have their own team.
Family teams can also mean teams that have mentored a certain team for some time.

Remember that just because your team could have placed 8th does not mean that a team ranked lower than you could have placed 1st.

Our team has also been subject to not getting picked even though we thought we did well, however, this is not really the case for us anymore.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

I was in the stands hoping that someone would have the good sense to replace an alliance partner with your robot. A handful of alliances at the event would've been well served to replace the weakest robot of the three after embarrassing, devastating losses.

My team was also exceptionally disappointed to have been overlooked, particularly since the robot was running very well and had been continually improving throughout the end of Friday and all through Saturday. In the end, however, it really is just the way these things go. It's not a reflection of the ability of our robots to compete as much as it is a reflection of how poorly teams can be in evaluating a team's performance -- if that's where their priorities lie.

I've noticed in the last two years of competing here in the Pacific Northwest that FIRST is still relatively unsophisticated here. Everything about the teams, robots, and competition is of lower caliber than what I was used to seeing at home. Teams don't scout as vigorously, don't design as elaborately, and don't interact nearly as much. It's disappointing, honestly.

All of that said, it was nice to meet you, Rick. Hopefully, we can do something to change the bad and improve upon the good and next year, we'll both be doing the choosing rather than waiting to be chosen.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

the alliance picking proceedure is very fast and its hard for the team captains to keep track of whats going on

also, some teams dont expect to make it to the top 8, and do very little scouting.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

I think many of the reasons listed here are good, but our selection process is based on our scouting, not ranking. There are so many variables in the ranking that are totally outside of a teams control.

We look at indivudual robot performance and how it would fit with our robot as a team. What is a good fit for us might be a terrible fit for another robot.

I also think as you get to the tougher regionals and to the Championships, the selection is also influenced on having a solid reputation to perform, and on how well you have performed what you say you can do.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

We were seeded 22 at the Hartford UTC Regional, and a Rookie to boot. We WERE chosen as an alliance partner in the quarter finals. It was a thrill and an honor!

Our machine was very dependable, it worked 14 out of 14 times. As rookies, we just had to improve our driving and strategy, which we did by taking cues from our alliance partners.

We scored an average of 22 pts per round, only 3 points from the #1 robot.

For a veteran team to choose us, a rookie team, was an honor.

Kirk Stankiewicz
Mentor
Team 1524

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Ranking is not a good science to tell of ones ability. At the end of day 1 in Pittsburgh team 63 was ranked 16/30. The fact was that they had a lot of problems and really only moved once. They came to every match and tried all competition to get going. They knew that they were broken and even removed themselves from the pool for elims. I am not sure of the final ranking but it shows that ranking cannot be the prime way to chose.

Promotion of your team is also VERY important. Make others know that you are there and how good your robot is. Show off all of your strengths and how you could help the alliance. To do this you have to have had good scouting yourself

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

In our very first competition we made a concentrated effort in the last rounds to move up to 16th so we'd get picked into an alliance. We weren't. :(

Having watched a number of alliance selections, it's pretty obvious that most teams don't do much of a job of scouting or even have a plan. The alliance captain is up there stumbling around listening to numbers shouted from the crowd to make a choice instead of having a ranked list of teams to chose from.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

We were ranked 16th at BAE after winning our last five straight and weren't picked. Some people have theories that it was because we were never in the pits to talk with potential pickers because we never had to fix anything. :) I think a lot of alliances were looking for defensive bots from lower in the list. We have no reason to complain, though, because Team 562 was ranked 12th and wasn't picked. They did get in as a hot swap, though, which is good because they definitely deserved it.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

With a good scouting team, final position after top 8 is meaningless. I've often seen bots at 10 or 11 that cant do anything but just had good pairings all weekend. And if your real good at scouting you might even pick a bottom 10 robot if you know they had fixed a problem or had good reason to be there. Team 66 picked us last year when we were in the 40's I believe and we went on to win the GLR. They knew we had poor alliance partners and some mechanical problems that we had fixed. GOOD scouting is the key. ;)

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Steve, your post brings up something I hadn't given any thought before.

Team 63 knew they were broken and couldnt compete. When you say the eliminated themselves from the finals, do you mean that they told everyone not to pick them?

Say they stay in 16th place on Saturday, and become the highest seeded unpicked team. Say alliance x wants to replace one of their robots, can a team tell FIRST they're broken, not to replace the other robot with them, and move on to the next highest ranked team after them? Or would the alliance receive team 63 no matter what?

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

At the 2002 nationals, Team 11 finished 9th in galileo and wasn't picked

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

In 2001 at EPCOT, we were 10th in a Division of ~80.

We also had the highest match score of the day. We were in 4th-6th place most of the 2 days.
No one picked us. :ahh: (We had no noticeable image or Rep.)

From that day forward I pledged to make our team more noticeable.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

We were ranked 28th out of 31 team in Pittsburgh and were picked first by the 8th place alliance. The teams realized that we had had some problems earlier on with our pneumatics that were worked out.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Seeding while it is one factor to look at when considering the quality of a team and their robot it defenitly isn't the most important. My team relies on our extensive team of scouts to choose the best and most capable robot.

In my opinion one of the most fun aspects of FIRST is diplomacy and getting your team recognized even though you may not have that great a ranking. While it defenitly isn't as important at some of the smaller regionals, at the larger regionals and the nations where often 80+ teams are present it is very important to publicize your team. No matter how many scouts a team has its hard to really keep every robot in your mind.

I remember back in 2003 my team was probably too good at publicizing itself. Our robot while capable, barely ran. After every match we had to rebuild the drivetrain, its autonomous was shaky, it only worked half the time(although it was effective when it did work). Despite all these problems we managed to get chosen first round by the seventh seed. We defenitly didn't deserve that position and probably hurt our alliance because they weren't allowed to choose another team that was more capable than us. That was ages ago, things havent' always gone that well. ;)

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Here's a "sob story" for you all. My freshman year (2001) the competition with the balancing ramp. We were ranked 6th in our division at nationals going into our last match. Once the match started another team and ourselves piggybacked over the bridge and as a result the bridge popped off its fulcrum. We stopped the clock and got as many points. We checked the final standings and we were in 9th place by .5 points! We didn't get picked. Needless to say I was crushed. To see us going from the allaince with the 2nd seed, to being knocked out of competition was more than I could take. Oh well, I used that as a sringboard to launch the rest of my FIRST high school experience.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

I can't agree more. So often do you see teams that really can't contribute to their teams much get picked by a team due to poor scouting. I know for a fact that most of the good teams have extensive scout teams that rigorously pick apart the little nuiances of a team as to why they are seeded where they are. If they are an amazing team that just got unlucky as to get paired with broken partners several times, that's noted. More often that not a scouting team will do it's job. But it's when they don't do their jobs that the real diamonds in the rough get unnoticed.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

this has happened to us numerous times at nats and regional events. we don't really have much of a PR team. Usually every year we are passed over even though we consistently place in the top 10 at every regional year after year. the same holds true for nats.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

2002 We we were ranked 11th out of aprox 40 after being 2-4 all competition until our last 2 matches where teams Expressidly calluded against us and descored to lose a match, because it would knock their friends above us who would pick them.

They throw a match, so someone else would be ranked above us, because they knew that they would be pick by the other team. Thats just about as backwards as it gets. Atleast the way I understood it to happen from the drivers who were clearly upset.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Many posts in this thread point out how alot of teams who have seeded do a poor job of scouting and are unprepared when they go up to choose a team. At Finger Lakes we had done scouting before the regional, on practice day and during the day and it still wasn't satisactory. For one thing alot of team lie about their abilities and this year in particular it takes more people to watch robots during a match. Alot of teams don't have the personel to do this. This is why it's important to have a unoversal database so people know who is there and who is not.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

At New Haven 3 years ago we were the number 1 seed for a while then lost two matches and droped down to 10th we were not picked. We were very peeved considering some teams that were picked were from the bottom 40.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

562 was seeded 12th in Manchester and not picked. We were shocked, since we were very productive throughout the competition, never tipped over, never broke down, and had some good matches with some of the higher seeded teams. Our record was 6-2-1 (that tie really hurt our rank), with the 2 losses coming in matches where one of our alliance members was broken.

At least we got into the very last match as a substitute for 175 (their robot took a beating and it's a testament to their design that it lasted as long as it did), which we unfortunately weren't able to win -- another robot in our alliance couldn't move, and our other partner accidentally committed a 30 point penalty.

We've decided that we need to be more visible next year -- our performance on the field obviously isn't enough! Keep an eye out next year for the team with blue hair. ;)

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

There are a few reasons why the 9th, 10th, 11th, etc seed don't get picked...

-The robot doesn't match the alliance strategy
-The team might have had a few lucky breaks being paired with great teams to push them higher.
-Not enough PR/visual appeal power (small teams suffer from this)
-Didn't play the game the right way (i.e. smaller pusher bots vs. cappers)

Remember, it's not a game until luck is added. :)

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

1640 was 23/55 and we were not picked...

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Great point. Alot of the people in the thread are hurt and feel like a jilted prom date and fail to see that maybe they weren't the right choice for such and such an alliance and just because you are seeded high does not mean you will be picked.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

We placed 15th in the chesapeake this year, and when the top seeded teams started picking the teams right below them I was so scared that it was going to keep happening and I was going to end up an alliance captain. We had done no scouting, and pretty much all the teams I knew were already in the top 8. I was frantic until someone finally picked someone other than the people in the top 8.

Definitely throw together a scouting team for the philly regional, don't want to risk looking like idiots...

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

We were ranked 1-3 at UTC last year until our last qualification match, which was gave teams right below us a huge amount of qualification points, and dropped us down to 11th.

We werent picked.. :rolleyes:

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

kind of off topic but kind of not...

93 was last at BMR and picked for finals.

game recognized game

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

at sacramento we were either 13th or 14th i forget but people picked a lot under us. Didnt turn out so badly though because were then went to be the 2nd pick of the #3 alliance.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Yar, we were ranked 14th/40 at the end of qualifications at buckeye, and we were totally overlooked, but oh, well what can you do?

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

First, teams usually (but not always) have a reason to pick from below the top ranked teams. For example, in 2003 at Nationals along with team 27 (who picked us) we picked team 192 for our alliance even though they were close to last place because we knew they had fixed their robot.

We have an extensive scouting team. On Friday night, we create a preliminary list of teams from 1-24ish. We recognize that seed has little to do with actual robot ability. On Saturday morning we change our list based on performance that day. If we notice that a team that was capping one per match on friday suddenly is capping 3 per match, they will move up on our list. We try hard to find that team that is overlooked. In 2003 and 2004 at SVR we were really fortunate that 852, an awesome team, was not picked in the first round. In 2004, if we had not been picked by another seeded team, we would have picked 852 as our first pick. This year, we picked 22 as the overlooked team since they had not driven well during the qualifying matches, but trusting that they could cap at least 2 per match. During the playoffs, their driving skill increased exponentially.

We completely ignore the list of seeds when we create our list. This year, we created our list based on complementability with our robot, average points scored by that robot only in each of its matches, reliability, strength of drivetrain, and avoidance of penalties. Creating our 24 team ranking of teams is more an art than a science, but it helps us know who to pick next. Whatever team we pick (or are picked by), we celebrate because they are on our list and play our best to win.

Good luck to everybody!

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

haha that happened to us =P

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

The highest we seeded without getting drafted was 22nd in Annapolis. This was mostly due to the fact that our a gear in our gear boxes broke during our final match. We weren't sure that we would fix it in time and we let other teams know this fact.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

As Matt D stated, when looking for alliance partners, we use scouting, and don't look at the seedings. We look for partners that compliment our abilities.

One interesting fact is that at Nationals last year (I don't recall the division), the number one seed sat out and let the "lower" seeds play most of the matches.

Highest seeds are not always the most competitve bots, and higher seeds do not always "fit" best in a team.

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

It's called marketing. A company can make the best product in the would but, if they can't market it they'll go bankrupt. First is no different. In fact First is a microcosm of the business world. I know how it feels. We were 13th at Drexel in 2004 and didn't get selected. This year we were 13th again at Chesapeake and got in at 8th seed. We were lucky because our marketing effort was lacking again this year. I believe we picked the teams that had come to us with a plan. We were persuaded by their efforts.

Marketing Marketing Marketing Marketing Marketing

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Marketing Marketing Marketing is right. Our team was picked 2nd by the 8th alliance at NJ and then 2nd by the 1st alliance at Buckeye. That may not seem like a big difference but at NJ we were lucky to be picked at all. We had barely talked to any of the teams in the top 8 and we were a low key team so we went mostly unnoticed. At Buckeye we made ourselves be known right from the start because we actually had fans cheering in the stands (An unfortunate rarity for us). Also, we started talking to the teams that we thought we would make a good alliance with. Thus the teams we wanted to be picked by knew who we were while the other teams had to base their knowledge on their own scouting. We wound up slipping through the first round of selection because of this and our alliance went to the finals.

A mistake made is a lesson learned ;)

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

at waterloo, our fans were from team 188. members from our actual team didn't attend, but we've got quite a few joining us at our next regional.

p.s. gotta love our team name

Re: Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals
 

Hey it didn't matter.
It didn't matter because no one was going to beat the 111, 469, 65 alliance. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I'm just playing. That really blows though that you didn't get picked. I liked your guys robot. :cool: