Goals, balls.. Can't we all just get along?
 

This Ball handler, goal grabber topic seems to be a bit testy.

What I hear is,

'we're a ball handler, we know how to play the seeding matches'

and then

'we have the most power, pick us for your alliance and we will push everyone around, just stay out of the way'.

I am starting to think that this game is ingenious.

If you want to talk about alliance and the cooperation between teams, this game takes the cake.

My observations to this point.

Ball machines seed higher than goal machines.
Goal machines are KEY in the elims.

The problem is, I am starting to see a dividing line between the two. One can't survive without the other. Goal bots will not get to the elims without the ball bots, and ball bots can't win the elims without the goal bots.

hand in hand and a true alliance!

I agree
 

Well Said!!

It's gonna take the effort from both types of machines to pull off a national championship (in my opinion)

team arrangements
 

I agree that ball bots are key in qualifying and goal bots are necessary in elims. understanding the fact that boal bots can't get to elims without ball bots, I don't think that balls matter that much in elims. if one alliance gets all the goals (or at least two of them) and scatters all the balls (therefore making it hard to collect them), then that alliance has won their match. however, having seen these matches, I understand that the "ideal" alliances don't always win. we (team 365, MOE) designed our robot this year for elimination rounds. we designed it to win every time. our capabilities of three goals freeze scoring (I'm done talking about our capabilities now). we've seen some pretty high torque and high traction robots there that could torque us around (but we changed things to fix that problem). basically what I'm trying to say is that in elims, you need a goal bot and a HIGH TRACTION/TORQUE goal bot. a lot of these teams that scurry around and gather all the balls and dump them into one goal only use wheel chair wheels. they do nothing for teams like us. just chiming in my two cents

Simon

p.s. stupid washers

one goal is enough
 

two "balls-only" bots together would pick every ball around the world but wouldn't have a place to put them in.
and two goal bots have to fight all the match for the goals, if not they loose.
The perfect alliance has one ball bot and one goal bot.
against two goal bots:
you let your opponent with two goals. they will be very satisfied and will be concerned only about protecting them, so you can freely score A LOT of balls in the goal your partner is holding and win.

hey guys...what what you say...double goal grabbers can score 90-100 points easily every match....and as far as i can see, in most regionals that would be in the top 8. So...that being said, there is no real basis to say who will score higher...lets live in harmony and rack up the scores!!!!

Tell me ONE goal bot that averaged 90 points in the seeding matches....

Why 90 points? There were many regionals where NO robots had an avg. qualifying score of 90 points, despite having good ball robots present. For example, the Lone Star Regional, where Baxter (Team 16) was #1 seed and had an avg. QP of 80.38... In fact, after the first week (I'm not sure about the avg. QPs there), there were only 6 robots that managed to sustain an average QP of 90 points or above. I'd say a better "high" average score to suggest people find a goal robot for (a challenge which I don't have the time to research =P) would be somewhere around the order of 80 QPs... just my 2 cents

--Pete

Just to let you know, 90 qualification points is probably not enough. We seeded first in St. Louis with 105.43 qualification points, which a goal bot can never do, therefore, you better hope ya get picked by a ball bot :)

Oh... I just wanted to inform goal bots that not all ball bots have wheel chair wheels and run around on drill motors. You are forgetting the hybrids. Us hybrids can usually hold our own goal to score our own balls in. (ours has never been taken from us in 30 regional matches) So... just don't forget stuff like that. I imagine our low drive system is up there with the top goal bots, in fact, we've pushed goal bots out of the way, and i'm sure i'm speaking for other ball bots too. I imagine 111 can do the same thing with their tank drive. Ball bots will definately be a force to be reckoned with. Not only will many of them be the pickers after qualification rounds, but they will also run the scores up in the elims. Yes, and that is against goal bots in the elims. I'm sure nationals will be very interesting to watch anyhow. I can't wait to see how it all turns out!

Good luck to all robots going to nationals!

:)
 

yeah what lance said
go team 16, and all other teams for that matter!

Goal Control isnt necessarily needed
 

our team went against the odds at the midwest regional by winning a match against two goal grabbers while paired with a goal grabber only ( we are a goal grabber also ). By preparing a very well thought out strategy we, team 930, and team 857 we able to push a goal around and protect, trading this duty as the other collected, and dumping sufficient balls in, to beat the other alliance. we maintained control of one goal without a goal function on either bot and placed 34 balls in it to win. This goes to show that the unexpected can happen and that strategy makes the difference of who wins or loses, and 2 ball bots can beat 2 goal manipulators!

I'll give credit that ball bots are capable of putting up high scores, and that in Baxtors case, and wildstang, and the aztechs, they were able to achieve top spots with a strong proven strategy. Going after that however, the top scores drop significantly. We as a double goal bot were definately in the top three until we suffered some mechanical issues that had gone unresolved throughout construction. They have been fixed, and we are ready to roll.....goal bots versus ball bots....lets just do it together.

My team was a ball/goal robot for the first 6 matches at NYC, and averaged 57.5 QPs on 3 wins and 3 losses. After that we igonored the balls on the field and became a strict goal robot. After that, we didn't lose a match in the quals (4 - 0) and averaged 95.25 QPs, and moved up to the 2nd seed. So we didn't do it for the whole competition, but look out at nationals ;-)

I used 90 points because Deej's posting eluded to goal bot that can easily average 90 points. I just don't know of any.

What I think this is going to come down to is strategy.


A team like 16 (and 157 if we were going), would be wise to work on their strategy PRIOR to the end of the seeding matches. Their track record indicates they will be a high seed, and can look ahead. Remember Proper Planning Prevents Poor Performance!

I do feel bad for the goal bots though. Without them, a team will not win in the elims. The problem is, they are at the mercy of the teams selecting. If you decline an invitation because you don't think you match well with the team picking you, your done! You can't be chosen by anyone else.

I don't get it
 

Mark,

How come you post what I though I was saying and you actually get people agreeing with you! I don't get it. You must be more diplomatic than I am.


James
Team 180

In one of our elimination matches at MMR we controlled 1 goal with at least 25 balls in it....

Like Andy Baker said, a team that controls 1 goal and can fill it with a lot of balls will easily win a match......

Im just saying...its been done

double goal bots willl achieve 90 point rounds at the nationals....my prediction, and they will be picking!

To continue on with this:

The doube goal bots will be picking the ball bots....

When you have 2 goals in your control, and you have a ball bot to fill it up even more...the match is pretty much won

I agree that double goal bots can score 90 points on occasion. It is done and can be done. But the seeding matches are a cumulation of points over a period of matches. It needs to be done consistantly.

Atleast we agree James!

MMR #1 Seed: Wildstang (111)

What can they do?

1 goal + balls........

Once we got the glitches out of our Ball Collecting Mechanism we went from 25th Seed to 8th Seed over a few matches...

ive been hearing a few arguments against ball bots that are not true in all cases. Someone mentioned that the ball bots all had 2 wheel drive and wheel chair wheels. No offense, but you are mistaken..... do a little research if you dont believe me.
and someone else mentioned that ball bots are nothing if they dont have a goal to dump it in.......... theres many ball bots out there who dont have the capability to hold the goal, but there are also many who do, and many of those can hold thier goal with no problem.
While i do agree that a ball bot goal bot alliance is the best... that is if your definition of a goal bot is one that only hold goals, and a ball bot can only pick up balls..... but having two ball bots that can hold one goal each would probably be an even better arrangement... i am also a fan of very powerful drive trains, i dont think speed it as important of a factor (i know there are situations where speed means everything, and if you dont get to the goal first theres no way to get it back.... im just saying in general torque is more useful)

i guess what im saying is that im seeing a lot of labeling.... everyone is forgetting that there is something in between a ball bot and a goal bot, some robots out there that can do both...... and if you took off the ball mechanisms you would still have a decent goal bot

in the end it all comes down to strategy anyway

I hope that is a joke....

im not going to pick on anyone, if you read up you will see it

2 ball bots CAN beat 2 goal grabbers, no doubt about it. STRATEGY IS EVERYTHING. In fact 2 ball bots have the advantage of the other robots believing they have an easy victory. Any non-believers can watch the Midwest Regional and watch 930 and 857 beat 2 goal grabbers.

By the way, nice performance at MMR to the Technokats, Team 45.

I agree. All you need is good strategy and a goal . . but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

goal grabbers can score 90 points, easily(even for a bot like ours). If you can control two goals, you can let the other team get that last goal. Then, your partner can spend the time blocking, pushing, basically hindering the other alliance with the other goal. It is safe to say that the opposing alliance is going to go for the two goals you have, so if you hold your own, you can get 90 points (1 goal + 2 robots(30 pts) vs. 2 goals + 2 robots(40 pts)). the score can be higher depending on human player accuracy(you can even shoot for the opposing teams goal for an easier shot and 3 points per ball.)

Caveat:in this strategy, do not put more than 9 balls in opposing team's scored goal for obvious reasons

In this case, chances are the two goal bot won't make it back to the endzone (unless they have a tether), allowing the opposing alliance to simply put one ball in the goal for the win.

all i have to say is this....we are a two goal bot, we grab on the fly, when we are anchored WE AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE, and we have tethers for both ends....we are able to go from 1.5 ft/s to 14 ft/s using CVT's, and those same CVTs power our winching system capable of pulling 400 pounds.....90 points is very achievable...stop by 190's pits and see the CVT's, we will have a prototyped model on display for interaction, as well as a powerpoint presentation to show the bots attributes

Wildstang could grab 2 goals... and do balls..

Anyways, we managed to seed 5th at MMR and we are a 2 goal bot... but there seemed to be a lack of good ball getters and the average QP's were quite low compared to other regionals...

whoever said that two goal bots scoring 40 points will always win hasn't faced a decent ball bot. The opposing team having one good ball bot can have his/her alliance get one goal, they can fill it with 20-25 balls, and one robot can get back and the goal robots are beat! Goal bots, on the other hand, are limited to their human player balls and two goals, plus their robots. This means 2 goal bots can never get more than 50 points on their own as an alliance :)

Just putting something up there to think about.

I noticed this a mistake while after posting it... yeah i checked the scouting sheets from MMR and I noticed that wildstang only went after 1 goal at a time in all but 1 quallifying match. So i basically left that detail out

That is true, but most bots that were designed for two goals also have a tether. You all have to remember that there are balls behind the alliance station.

And so it goes....

The point of this thread was for the ball bots and the goal bots to start realizing the need to co-exist!

This is a great game this year, and there are advantages to having both a goal bot and a ball bot (or a combination of the two), however, the team(s), that get the point will have the advantage in the long run!

All I can say is, the final match at the championship event will be awesome! Just remember, you heard it here..

The winning alliance will have a combination of the two!

i dont know if i agree with that........ the winning alliance will have the capabitily to both grab goals and collect balls...... but i dont think its going to be a black and white ball bot and goal bot

or it might just be a simple robot that gets a goal and a few balls while thier excessively powerful alliance harasses the opponent

maybe two really powerful goal bots... if the opponent cant get the goals away theyve got nothing right?

i think theres too many combinations for anything to be predicted at this point

Neither Goals nor Balls!
 

By the time we get to championship finals, all the bots will be awesome regardless of whether they're ball or goal bots, and either will be capable of winning.

In my opinion, it will be up to the teams that can pull off some fancy driving and good strategies. Robot function will almost be secondary.

I'm really looking forwards to the Championships.


-Jeremy

Aragon Robotics - Team #840
SV Regional - Semi-Finalists, Highest Rookie Seed

you are absolutely right...... driving is a lot more important than i think most people realize.... and where would anyone be without strategy?

Yeah, they also controlled 2 goals in one of your finals matches against the alliance with Team 135 in it. You guys were frolicking around in the ball patch while they were dominating the other two robots in the scoring zone...

In my opinion, ball manipulators are sort of the underdogs for the elimination rounds. They have to develop a more creative strategy to win against big, torqueing, goal manipulators. I believe that effective multiple goal handler bots will have an advantage in elimination matches, but will not necessarily dominate. The whole match will all ride upon the fate of the third goal. If the ball handlers stuff it full with enough balls, then they'll win. However, if the other alliance snags it for themselves, then its an automatic win. The moral of the story is that Finals can go either way. The same is true with qualification matches. Ball manipulators do have an advantage in scoring high QPs, but goal bots aren't necessarily crippled. Goal bots can consistantly earn 90 QPs with a 2-1 goal setup. Also, a ball manipulator's goal can possibly be taken away to reverse the score. It will all depend on the alliance that utilizes their robot resources the best.
That's just my opinion though...
~Hubicki~

Fear the ballers
 

They may seem weak and not as effective in elims, but........
47 and 33's alliance beat us out in the finals of western michigan winning on balls.

Baller's pushing power is frequently laughable (not always), but they have the some of the fastest and most innovative drive trains out there. Pulling um may not be hard, but gettin the goal away will be an issue.


On a personal issue, many teams are bragging about new "home and away devices" and trying to be mysterious... If u buy a tape measure and can tape it to your bot, then just say it... cuz its nothing special.

Re: one goal is enough
 

This could be kind of true!
If you have a really strong goal handler that can hold this one goal in place the opponent will be happy with two goals, but once one of their bots secured them the second opponent bot can scatter balls, block your ballhandler etc...
IT's to complex to think even about all the possibilities and variations! I believe goal bots will MAINLYbe dominating the eliminatin rounds, there won't be too many ball-handler, ALTHOUGH I'd really like to see many ballhandlers, alliances with a ball-andler are just more fun to watch and you see more diversity in the games...
Well, see you guys all at the nats (I'll only be there to watch, but anyways), so long, Philip