Why this game is better then last year's
 

I personally like this game better then last year's because this year teams actually play the game. Last year, from wat I saw, it really looked more like a bunch of robots smashin the crap out of each other

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

This game has no real edge of your seat excitement, other than the adding of the penalties. I liked last years game better, but I didnt like the basketball aspect of it.
FIRST games are always great, but I personally liked last years game better.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I agree, they made this game much much better than last years. They designed it to completely remove defense from the strategy. We used to think having 2 scoreres and a defensive bot was the way to win, but 3 scorers is way better.

Playing defense just wastes time and takes away from the number of people your alliance has scoring, while not necessarily taking away from their scoring abilities.

Some of our better strategies in the elims at Detroit were to force the other teams to score so they would not try and defend us. Since we could outscore them, there was no stopping us in any way. (We didn't lose a single elim match because of this... only tied once :D :D )

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

All it really takes is somebody who can play defense well.

My only gripe is that there is really no difference in what robots look like. Of course there are the few that are just awesome, but most do the exact same thing as any others. No really neat ideas on how to play the game a la 93 last year.

It seems like for a few years you could do a lot of things:

2002: Pick up balls, grab goals, both, tether :-)
2003: Push things around, stack (though it wasn't used a lot), KOTH
2004: Hang, just get balls, cap, any combination
2005: Cap and ... cap?

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

the game seems better to play however watching it is a different story. Someone told me during the regional that even reading the rules and gameplay 2 times they still didnt know completly what was going on with penalties and the like. The game to play is extremly fun though. Having to keep your eyes moving around your bot and the like of where to put the tetra, quite fun. Hopefully next year will have the constant strategy and choosing of where to score and up the excitement of watching the game. All in all, this years game was pretty good, cant wait till next years.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I personally like last year's game better. It was much more exciting. Such as hanging at the very last second for the win. Also there was just much more you could do in a match. But this year's game is still fun. IMO.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

This game is not just better than last year's, its just unusually fun to watch. No need to cheer, or scream, or do anything else. You can just sit there, and watch, and enjoy. Grab the popcorn, Dew, and go to upper bowl seating for an impressive view.

Why? OK. It's the playoffs, and you have the best robots out there. Your eye watches one robot as it picks up and stacks a tetra. Meanwhile, a whole bunch more stuff goes on. A tetra could have been stacked at like 3 other goals, a huge tower of them could've been toppled, or something else. Sensory Overload.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

this game is good for an offensive stragdey point..you don't have to really worry about your bot too much being pushed around and being smashed

a lot of teams always are really great at the offensive part..and this year it seems to work really well

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

Lets keep this thread focused on what is better. So, I think having 6 robots is better because it adds more challenge, more action, and more scouting and strategy. I think the "one manipulative option" was a good change for this year beacause it forces everyone to do that one thing well. This year everyonne does everything, because there is only one thing to do. And everyone does it pretty well. When teams had 130 lbs to herd balls, cap doubler balls, and hang, we were often left with a bunch of flimsy little poorly thought out mechanisms that didn't work too well. This year, all there is to do is stack tetras (besides contain, any boxbot can do that and most don't bother). So, you still get roughly the same 130lbs but you have less you have to do with it, so you can be better at what you do.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

i guess the reason people didnt like this year too well was that since the one task was picking up tetras could be done and most of the robots have the same looking gripper. I think what they really tried to do to get people really into it was in that first 15 seconds of autonomous. Seeing 237 cap that goal using vision was a thing of beauty. People over look the vision aspect because not many teams used it. I hope some sort of vision device is used next year.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

heh...my brother's first thread! I guess I should respond to it...

This year's game is obviously much more offense oriented. Sending one team on defense usually doesn't make sense because there are so many goals that it's pretty easy to go around to another goal if there's something between them and a goal.

I liked last year because there was SO MUCH to do! There was some defense played, but for the most part, it wasn't bad. I think the offense still outweighed the defense bu far.

Then there's the 2003 game...there really was no offense. If you want to talk about robots smashing the crap out of each other robots, look back to that game.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

The one aspect this game misses compared to the last few years is sieging a scoring zone. It is not worth it to go home at the end of a match, and that is where all of high tension battles occured in the games, either getting onto the bar or playing king of the hill. Even watching toungs go accross was quite entertaining. Not to say everything else is exciting, it is just missing the race to the finish.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

This games lacks one thing: a final ending. Other games have had a climactic ending, while this one is only penalties.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I liked last year's game better. I think that this year, you can only work with tetra's and arms and all that. But last year, you had a choice, you could go for the bar, you could push the balls in the holes and fill up the little things that caught them, and you could play defense. I know that some teams this year did not have their arms to be fully functional, therefore, they didn't have a chance. Last year, if one of your arms to do something wasn't fully functional, you still had the option to work with the balls, I mean come on, if the robot moves, it can push the balls and play defense and you could still have a chance at winning the match. But this year, if you didn't have something to pick up/drop tetra's you're screwed. This year, all the robots basically look the same. You see some that have the elevator thing, the arms, the flippers, and last but CERTAINLY not least...the scissors lift! Last year, there were so many different robots in all shapes, forms, and sizes. This year, it looks like they're all the same. :(

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I like this years game more but I wholeheartedly disagree on the defensive strategies. In the quarterfinals a robot from the opposing alliance was assigned to keep us from scoring. They avoided penalties by just sitting there when we where loading but once we moved from our spot on the human loading zone the just kept on us. It kept us from scoring and it worked once and failed once. In the finals we went on an all out defense. We assigned one robot to cap the home row and the other two robots just took off. The only tetras they got where the two they knocked down in autonomous mode. The final score was 2-0 (we got a 30 point penalty.) However if you play defense like the other alliance did (just stop moving when someone loads a tetra) defense is unstoppable. Just my 2 cents. Defense also makes the matches much more exciting to watch.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

After watching every match at the UCF regional...I have some thoughts

This game does have a "final finish", but only when there are 6 decently good bots on the field. In elim matches it was so awesome seeing a bot cross the field in the last 15 seconds and try to get a 23 point swing. With the average scores being in the 20-35 pt range this is huge. Is the game as exciting as last year. I don't think this can really be answered till nationals, but my first assesment is that it is just as good.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I personaly like this game more then last year's game because it requires a bit more finess in stacking then in last years 'shove everything that moves' gameplan. Although stacking tetras is the only physical thing you can do it takes tick-tac-toe skillz to truely master this game.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

No offense(no pun intended), but are you serious?

There are two other robots and 9 goals on the field! If one robot from a team defends another robot and keeps them from scoring, both teams now have 1 useless robot. Unless your alliance can outscore theirs, its more useful to have that 3rd robot helping you score rather then keeping them from scoring (QPs baby!)

That time spent waiting for them to load a tetra could be used to get a tetra of your own, so as soon as they cap a goal you can cap right over it.

Not to mention, unless the defending team is spectacular, some robots can outmanuever or score right through them.

Sure a defensive strategy might work in qualifying matches, when the other team might have 1 good scorer and 2 mellow ones. However, in eliminations, defense is useless (from what I've seen at FLR and DTR).

Case-in-point: We lost FLR by deciding on a 2 cap 1 defend strategy. We decided to change our strategy for Detroit and won with 3 fast cappers.

I do agree that defense is a bit more entertaining to watch. Its kinda boring when everyone is just staying on their sides capping their home row and maybe fighting for the center. When someone comes rushing over and slams another robot, however, the sympathetic "oooooh!" from the crowd never gets old!

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

Another thing that makes this game a lot better is rookie teams can make a simple robot and still do well yet there is still a place for veteran teams to be "enriched" (autonomous). Rookies can do something with dead reckoning where as veterans can be challenged with the camera. Even though there isn's a "nail biting finish" it can still be exciting to watch. There are a lot of times when teams have to book it back to the starting area and just make it back. Also there is a lot going on during the matches so you can take it all in. It's a game that you really don't know who will win until they announce it (due to penalties). But all in all, I prefer this years game. It's easier to understand (giant game of tic-tac-toe) where as FIRST Frenzy was a little confusing.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

The two things I like about this year's are: point swing and autonomous options

The point swing with the rows is great. One cap on the center goal could mean a 43 point swing. This makes huge last second comebacks possible and that is the most exciting thing in any game.

This year there are an incredible number of things to do in autonomous mode. With starting tetras, hanging tetras and vision tetras, the possibilities are numerous. Unfortunately, the low percentage of bots with good autonomous routines disappoints me. Pretty much everyone with a programmer should able to knock down a hanging tetra, right?

Overall, I like last year's game better because it had more robot diversity, as I explain in this post.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

Of the four years I have been in FIRST last years was definately the best one. It was so multi-faceted. So many ways to play, so many ways to win, so many ways to lose and the incradible variety of robots last year!
This year's game is very very good but I place it below Stack Attack but (well) above Zone Zeal.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

one thing that is neat about everyone trying to accomplish the same tasks is that everyone comes up with a different way to do it! At the pittsburgh regional, everyone had a different gripper to pick up the tetras. I never thought there would be so many ways to pick up a tetra. It was also neat to see which ones were effective and which ones were too complex. It seemed that simple was good, but complexity wasn't necessarily a bad thing. 188's gripper was awesome, and more complex than most.

It seems strategy must vary from regional to regional. We saw a lot of defense at pittsburgh, and it resulted in lower scores than some other regionals. But it seems there are many regionals where there is almost no defense. I don't think one strategy is better than another, as long as they are excecuted well. From a strategy aspect, this year is definently very interesting, and it is necessary to know what the goal ownership situation is like at all times.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

this is the winning post. bow before it

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

No nail biting finish? You have got to be kidding me. If you were at Trenton you know that I was going absolutely beserk during the elimination rounds. The last 30 seconds of each match were AMAZING I couldn't announce fast enough the action was so intense and each move could either make or break a match. Last year if there were two robots hanging and an allaince had all 6 or their balls in their stationary goal then the match was pretty much over, so technically the match could be over right after autonomous. So this game isn't over until the buzzer!!! I LOVE THIS GAME

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I believe the game becomes better and better each year. Each year, the game offers a new kind of challenge that is usually not easy. So yes, as do some other who agree with me, I look forward to each game every year.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

There is only one reason I like this year's game better than last year's... because it is happening now! Other than that, they are all equal to me.

Heidi

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I think the game last year was an awsome game, except the teams that have been around for 8-10 years had the edge.

This years game probably is more fun to watch because the gearbox, new chasis, and everything is more friendly to newer teams, and was a benifit to spinoff teams (Like how 1071 was spun off of team 228).. It gave the rookies more of a chance to learn what motors do and eliminated a lot of wasted time on a chasis (for rookie teams its probably best to have a working robot to mess around with, rather than working for a week or 2 on a basic chasis)

When you look at all the regionals with the major teams in the northeast, it's the same thing every year teams like 173, 237, 236, 175 always win because they have built so many robots and are so well funded. This year those major teams are still a factor, but your seeing more up and comeing teams like 1071, 1027, and others teams in the 900-1000-1100 range really able to show what they can do with a more compeitive kit of parts and more equal playing field.

Last year it almost felt like our team didn't belong on the same field as those major teams because we didn't have resources. This year before the kickoff one of our advisors really wanted to consider going west to be with more 1-4 year old teams that we felt we could compete with.

Who would think a team like 1071 who's largest sponsor paid 500 dollars would have chance to even make elmination rounds let alone win a regional? We spent our money that would normally be spent on just getting a chasis and new gearbox built in previous years on a new giro and other stuff we normally can't afford. I think many teams in our situation are now able show they can compete with the older teams and the competition has been a bit more competitive from top to bottom because of more teams able to increase resources with the new KOP.

Ohh and about defense, I THINK your going to be in for a shock at nationals if you think it's a waste of time, some teams can effectivly make a match 2 vs 2 and could win matches.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I also agree about this....but I am liking this game more and more the more I watch it.

p.s. I think the best games in the last 4 years goes: 2004, 2003, 2005, 2001, 2002

Anyway back on topic. I agree with everyone saying that offense is the key to winning this game...3 super fast cappers will be able to overcome anything from what Ive seen at the Detroit regional. Both aliances in the finals had 3 fast capping robots, but 217,245, and 301 just did it faster, plain and simple. Also with defence you get into worring about penelties and what not.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I think having six robots on the field this year makes the game more interesting, because it is more crowded, but I think that last year's was more intriguing. This year, there are only so many aspects of the game to innovate on, and they all have to do with the same thing: Finding a way to pick up a tetra. Great, so all we're going to have is a bunch of robots with different kinds of arms.

Whereas last year, there were three different aspects to focus on. You could focus on ball coralling and come up with a sort of ball vacuum. Or you could focus on big ball scoring and have some strange set of gripper arms. Or you could focus on hanging and totally dominate the bar (ah... 237... great bot...).

IMO, it's not really about how exciting the game is (but that does help). It's how the game makes you think of new and clever solutions to problems. The more problems you have in a game, the more cleverness will abound, and the more kids will learn to "think outside the box." That is what FIRST is about -- getting us young'uns to think different.

*steps of soapbox*

Dave

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I will defiantly have to agree here, from the VCU and the BoilerMaker regional this games climatic finish, with teams racing across the field to cap their opponets back row, or racing back to a load station to cap the middle one more time, make this game 100x better than last years game where half the teams were hangning right out of auto.

From the 5 years ive been with FIRST this game implements many new things that makes it better than ALL the rest of the games:

The edge rookie teams are giving by implementing an entirely new scoring device ( and the KILLER kit of parts rookie teams get to start with )

The amazing new depth added to scouting with the addition of a 3rd team on each alliance

The 9! scoring goals, that cause mad scoring swings

The killer autonomous goals

And just as a side note

YES! don't expect to win your division at nationals without one robot on your alliance being able to play defense in one form or another.

Oh and about all the robots looking the same *nudge* [points over to own robot] some teams like to think outside the box ... and we definitely are not the only ones.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

Hmmmm, I think we lost the FLR due to 2 opposing robots caping 2 separate goals at the last second(so much for no final bang) While 340 was holding the third bot to nothing. I think that if we never got that ridiculous 30 pt penalty in the first semifinal round we were set to win again. I agree that 3 awesome capers are good but a good defensive bot is good to have. Especially if a team has only 1 or 2 good cappers, the defensive bot can shut it down and the match is over. I think defense is important.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

Yeah it definitely wasn't just because we chose a defense bot as a third alliance. There were many factors preventing our success. Sorry if I made it sound like I was trying to blame you guys for our loss.


I still stand by the 3 cap attack strategy though ;)

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

really ive noticed that every robot that played defense lost. at the detroit regional in the semifinals we lost our first match, but then our opponents started playing Defense and they ended up losing.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

Team 1708 played defense at Pittsburgh, and they deservedly have a Champions Trophy to show for it. There is a time for both offensive and defensive strategies in this years game.

I appreciate the change in rules that disallows "high speed ramming". The past few years has produced a number of diamondplate covered "bricks on wheels". I'm tired of watching quality teams build 130 lb hammers just because they can. There's more elegant ways to play defense than beating on the other robot.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

Defense is a useful stragety, but only when used correctly. With all the penalties being give out for ramming and for hitting robots in the loading zones, I believe that a "passive defense" is the best way to go if you must play defense. However, I also believe that 3 cappers is better, as a box on wheels can play defense.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

this years game is awesome

also i think this years game is more like a game than the other years, if you know what i am trying to say, its not just push shove, there is so much strategy, it is definately a game, and a great one at that

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

You probably didn't see the VCU webcast, but we were in an alliance with 1123, and their robot didn't exactly have an arm, so they played defense, and without them, we probably wouldn't have won that match. They actually won a lot of their matches.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

That is very ture psquared. Take last year for example: the stragety was practically set out for you. Pick up balls, give them to your human player, then cap the big ball and hang. You could argue the same with this year:cap tetras. However, the fact that tic-tac-toe is involved opens up a whole new level of complexity.

In addition, I believe that this years game is much more like football than anything else, more spefically, the triple option (triple play, triple option anyone?). You have one robot work on the back, thats the full back. he sets up the foundations of the game, and gets the back row, and goes and block when needed. The other two robots are running backs. They go and score wherever they can. When playing defense, there is run defense (pushing the robot) and pass defense (attacking the tetra while the other robot is attempting to cap). Perhaps I see it this way because I play football, but the similarties are there, even if not at first glance.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

You meat-head :p

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

I LIKE IT BETTER CAUSE ON THE FIRST DAY OF UTC I HAD A NICKNAME ... unlike last year. lol. thats why i like it better.

-Crash

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

Its better then last years game For one main Reason : IT DOESN"T PUT YOU TO SLEEP WATCHING IT! Where as last years game was about as exciting as watching paint dry. I still say STACK ATTACK WAS THE BEST! :)

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

this years game is definitely a lot more enjoyable to watch and be a part of. I takes away more of the defensive aspect, which avoids problems with the robot. The only problem our team had to work through this year was that our arm got bent during autonomous mode and we had to make an adjustment. Last year, it seemed like we were always banging things back into place and whatnot. As for being a human player, it is not quite as vital a role as last years game. It's not really based on talent like the basketball skills needed last year.

One final reason I like this years game is that there are three robots on an alliance, therefore giving all 3 teams a chance to participate in all the matches of the finals.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

last year's game would have been sweet with three robots. talk about exciting.

i know 4 bots could hang at once, but 6??? that would have knocked our collective socks off.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

personally i think this is the best game from the last three years. I really like that they still have incorporated a last second 10 pt. strategy in the game. But they did not skew the point value as in other years so it is all that matters.
In many finals matches last year, if two robots we hanging they won. In 2k3 if they were both on the ramp they won. I like that the last 10 seconds does not negate the work that you have done for the first 125 seconds.
I also believe it is much more exciting to watch because there is alot more action with 6 robots and the score can change so fast at any moment.

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

Also '99 and '00 were the best games that i ever saw. and this years game comes close to those

Re: Why this game is better then last year's
 

it seems like the big theme this year was to level the playing field, and they did that. There is such a little variation in robots. Yes there may be different types of lift systems, or single tet vs multi tets, but thats about it. everyone has the same goal, cap! so this is truly a better game because there is strategy