Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

That's not true. Our mentor was a ref at the championship event in our division. Every time we came onto the field, he would take a break and let someone else temporarily sub in so it wouldn't be bias. We needed him with us for the trip, and he was with us... just down on the field :D




GO 1403!!!

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

It seems to me most of the problems are out in areas that are fairly new to FIRST (like denver and the west coast). UTC I believe had most of the same refs from 2004 and these guys were really good.

FIRST is like any sport, bad calls will be made.. Who cares? We just have to get over it and move on because no matter how much we complain they won't change a call.

Look at baseball and how many strikes are called balls or balls called strikes. In basketball some fouls are called offenseive when the should be defensive etc.. It's all part of the game.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I was dissapointed at the West Michigan Regional. When you hit a robot in a loading zone, its a 30 point penalty. They are trying to keep the human players safe. When a robot crosses the drivers plane and the drivers get knocked in the head with a tetra, its only a 10 point or even no penalty. On Friday, a robot trying to cap the center/home row on our side breaks the plane and drops a tetra on me, the other driver, and our coach. Our coach had a busted lip, I had a bump on my head, and the other driver had a sore sholder. The opposing alliance got nothing. Not even a warning. Saturday in the final rounds, we were hit yet again. This time the tetra was higher and hurt more. All the opposing alliance got was a 10 point penalty. I guess safety isnt a concern. The 2 robots deserved 30 point penalties and their robots being disabled.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

We were at the West Michigan Regional, mostly had to play defence as I totally underestimated the real friction losses in our arm motor assemblies. I'm not going into bad calls and aggressive defence...
My main comment is rules on how to play the game don't effect the PHYSICS of putting 8 and 12 pound objects at heights of sometimes over 14 feet on robots with 28" by 38" bases that weigh only 133.4 lbs or less that can travel as fast as 14+ feet per second. It's time for SAFETY NETTING. 302's drive team shouldn't have been hit once by flying tetras mush less twice.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

The west coast is not new to FIRST. We have had teams since 1995, and regionals since 1999.

West coast regionals should, infact be the most consistant of any in the nation. Sacramento, PNW,SVR, and Vegas all had the same core ref crew. All the mentioned regionals also had FIRSTer's with lots of experience reffing in addition to the core that had been to all the others.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

At the regionals I've attended, most of the volunteers at regionals are
from a FIRST team at the event, (with the exception of students from the university hosting the regionals). Frankly, where else would you get volunteers? I've ref'ed at several events, and the fact is that most of the refs are directly involved with a team. They have to sign a paper stating that they will be impartial. If they can, they sit out the matches containing their
team. If not, they take themselves out of any judgment calls such as
tipping. The tendency is actually to be harsher on your team than you would
normally.

At the Championship last year they only selected refs who had done at least
one regional. And again, most were associated with a team. But for the most
part they were assigned to divisions other than their home teams. This is
why it's so hard to find volunteers. You want to watch your team but you
are too busy, and you don't get many breaks (although the free food is
good). This year it will be worse as many more refs are needed and I don't know what the selection process was.

And yes, the refs do read the rules, but I challenge anyone to be able to
memorize 20 pages. The head refs had weekly conference calls to discuss the rules and special training. The other refs have training at the start of the event, and do revisit the various calls during lunch breaks. Most have summary sheets that they use as a reference but occasionally have to go back to the whole rule book as a check. But the rules aren't clear cut and judgment calls have to be made, many in a split second. It's harder than it looks.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

VERY good point. I have a bump on my head because of it. I think that a 30 point penalty for hitting a robot in the loading zone to protect the human player should also apply to the breaking the plane and dropping tetras on drivers heads. I know i will be wearing a helmet next time

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I have always been a little bothered by the fact that many refs/inspectors/judges are active members of FIRST teams and in many cases teams that are attending the particular regional that they are volunteering at. On several occasions, I have even seen volunteers throw on a team t-shirt and walk with a team when they win an award! How can you have any faith in their impartiality when you see stuff like that?

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Well - you have faith. You expect that those members (usually adult team mentors) exhibit GP, and can step aside when it comes to being partial to their team. In some cases, if they have to ref/inspect/judge their own team, they may be harder on their own team.
As stated, many refs will step aside if their team is competing, or they will simply not be "in charge" of reffing their robot, or they will not enter into discussion about a judgement call on their team.
Inspectors - there's usually more than one inspector, so they will allow another to inspect their teams robot.
Judges - the judges judge different awards, and these people are typically chosen by the planning committee for specific reasons. I would say that there are few cases where judges are directly related to any particular team competing there. And even so, in most cases, the judge will not say anything regarding their team, so as to not have bias. i.e. If a team submits Chairman's at a regional, then that judge won't be in charge of that award, they'll be in charge of another one with a different group of judges. There's enough judges to make those decisions, so you shouldn't expect that one person to have biased the entire juding panel.

You have to trust these people. They're upstanding people - Most dont' even want to be in a position that has conflict of interest, so they will do what they can to remove themselves from it (without having to remove themselves from that volunteer position). It's typical for team members to volunteer at regionals that their team is competing because it makes sense. They are there already, and regionals need the volunteers. While at times there may be conflict of interest, you have to expect that they will avoid the conflict however they can. If they don't, then either we start losing a large number of volunteers, or we have a big issue with biased results.... neither is good, and I don't see either happening.

I had a volunteer shirt on at Boilermaker - because I was on the planning committee and volunteering where I could. I threw on my team shirt after matches and during awards - I see no problem with it, same as I don't see any problem with other volunteers doing it. If you think you see some violation of impartiality, then you could talk to somebody about it, but you better have solid grounds to stand on.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

There's nothing wrong with that. What kind of bias can a field attendant have? Or a Queing volunteer?

I can see your concern with regards to referees, but I don't agree with it. I'd say that in excess of 99% of the time, a referee at their own team's event does not hold any bias towards them.

As Amy said, you just have to trust people.

I refereed two events at which my former team was competing, and not once was there a conflict of interests. If there were to be a difficult call involving them, I would gladly stay out of any discussion between referees to avoid influencing anyone else, or even myself.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I also am attached to a team, 111, and performed as lead inspector at Boilermaker and Midwest and will also be at Nationals. I will not inspect my own team, but always leave that to another inspector. As lead inspector, I interact with the field judges and IFI personel to make sure that all participants have a great time and run everytime they go out. I will also work with teams to make sure they are ready to compete, not just inspected but really able to compete. If you come to play, it is my duty to help you play whether I am an inspector or not.
One thing I do is let every team know that I am a Wildstang mentor before I start inspection. I give that team an oportunity to ask for a different inspector if they feel intimidated by my team affiliation. And yes, you will see me wear team colors on Saturday, and I will cheer for my team's alliance. You will get a full, unbiased decision on your robot modifications and weight and size when needed regardless of the color of the shirt I am wearing and regardless of your qualifying position, your action on or off the field, or your latest interaction with my team's robot. You will get all of these things because I am committed to gracious professionalism and the desire to see that every team has a fair chance to compete on a level playing field.


And just so everyone knows, Wildstang team shirts are ALL colors and I take that to mean we are on ALL teams. If you need help, look for a tie dye shirt.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Our team has competed in both Detroit and Palmetto. We found that these 2 regionals were very different. We felt that the refs in Detroit called the rules very fairly and very closely to the way they were written. When there was a question, the head ref explained the ruling to our all student drive team.

Unfortunately, Palmetto was much different. In Palmetto during the driver meeting, the head ref stressed that any robot that either broke the plane of the driver station or approached the driver station with an elevated tetra that could fly over the Plexiglas, would be shut off in the name of safety. We were amazed when we witnessed 3 different tetras fly over the Plexiglas with no penalties or disablement. During the semi-finals, a robot arm extended around the end of the player station and came within inches of our arm operator, still no penalty or disablement.

We witnessed human elements jumping off the floor in order to hang a tetra on a robot in Palmetto with no penalty. We got penalized in Detroit because our human element stood on his tip-toes.

In the final match that determined the Palmetto champion, one of our alliance partners (the number 1 seed) was pulled over by an opponent. There was no penalty. In Detroit, we were told that tipping over other robots would not be tolerated.

In Palmetto, our arm was ripped from our robot as we attempted to cap the center goal. The offending robot did not have a tetra, was not attempting to stack, and chose to attach our robot's arm 10ft in the air instead of blocking the goal. In Detroit, we were told that we would be penalized for using an arm to attack a robot high in the air. Fortunately, we were able to make a new arm segment and re-assemble our robot in time for the next match.

In qualifying match number 56 in Palmetto, it was ruled that a tetra was being supported by another tetra that was hanging above it. I guess gravity points upward in Palmetto. That ruling cost us the tetra, a row, and the match. I will include a picture of the "unseated" tetra.

In each of these cases, the head ref refused to speak to our student drive coach and would only address an adult. Our 18 year old drive coach and senior was highly offended. In her 4 years with First, she had never been treated that way.

This is my 3rd year as a mentor. I have been extremely surprised at how well matches have been ref'ed in the past. I think First has failed this year in 2 ways. #1 The refs have not been trained in a way that would lead to calls that are consistent to each other or to the rule book. #2 This game has so many different elements and rules, that it is very difficult to call. There are 6 robots going to 8 loading stations and 9 goals and there are 6 human elements. There is a lot going on. In the end, the refs may be forced to make scoring calls on each of the 9 goals and remember how many tetras of each color slinkied off of one of the goals.

Even with our second place finish in Palmetto and the warm weather, our team unanimously decided not to return to Palmetto next year.

Oh yeah, please take a look at the attached picture of the tetra that was judged to be not fully seated.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

There is nothing wrong with volunteers being open about their team affiliation or receiving an award that they worked hard for as a member of that team. Wouldn't it be worse if they tried to keep their team affiliation a secret?

At Philly, all refs/inspectors/judges signed a conflict of interest form (quoted below), with rules about behavior toward their team. I don’t know if other regionals are using this form, but it is a good idea to set up the guidelines up front.

This is the first year I have seen this form, but FIRST has always known which teams the volunteers were from. The volunteer application form asks you for FIRST team experience, mostly to make sure you are qualified for your position.

I've been a member of 365 for 5 years and a robot inspector for 3. While I’m inspecting, it is pretty easy to tell that I’m a MOE member. In 2003 and 2004, I had permanent MOE Green hair for all the competitions:D . There was a shortage of volunteers this year at Pitt, so I was asked to help out with the inspections Thursday night. I didn’t get a crew shirt or badge, so I inspected two robots in my MOE shirt. It was a little awkward :o when I had to explain the situation to both teams, but the inspections went off w/o a hitch.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I'm guessing the robot that is holding the tetra that's touching the stacked one is a blue bot. If so, that's why you lost the points.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

That does not matter in this case. For the purposes of "robot touching a tetra" for scoring count (especially in the home zone when robots are returning at the end of a match) a tetra in the grasp of a robot IS NOT considered to be part of the robot. The indicated tetra should have been scored for BLUE.

As a referee for the past few years (including championship last year, GLR and championship this year) I am quite disturbed by the number of reports of inconsistent calls and apparently "made-up" rules at various regionals this year. I am sure that the referees at these events, as well as all other volunteers, share my committment to performing our jobs to the best of our abilities. I can only hope that many of these reports are the result of a mis-communication or a mis-understanding of the call/explanation.

I know for a fact that these forums are watched closely for feedback, and many of these issues have been discussed during the regular head referee communications that occur throughout the season. While I am not a head referee (yet) I will raise these concerns at the referee training sessions and do my best to assure that the rules are applied as consistently as possible at the championship event.

Good luck to all teams competing ... I am sure the Championship will be GREAT this year (as always) ... and I can't wait!! :D