Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Can you provide the rule that states that?

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I have conflicting opinions here. Q&A #1789:
Versus the games definitions:
These are obviously clearly in opposition to each other. There are three possible solutions:

1. The Q&A is wrong, teams shouldn't be penalized.
2. The definitions are wrong, and a tetra held by a robot touching another tetra descores that tetra.
3. Both are right. The Q&A definition is strictly for the case of human loading, while the game definition is for all other cases.

I have no idea which of these three is being used, however. 2 seems cumbersome, though, as it requires that Q&As supplant the rulebook, which means that refs need to memorize all the Q&As in addition to all the rules.

EDIT: The rulebook and the Q&As are often at odds it seems. Reading the rulebook, a team could remove a lot of points thus: Blue has 2 tetras stacked at the bottom of a goal, and Red has 5 tetras on top of these 2. Blue touches the higher of its two tetras, unstacking it. The red tetras no longer count since they aren't supported by a stacked tetra. The Q&A changes the definitions to say that this only discounts the same color tetras above the touched one.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I have checked the official rules and find no mention of the tetra being an extension of the robot. The only place it is mentioned is in the Q&A which is wrong about 10% of the time and changes from day to day. No team is expected to read all of the Q&As and decifer what they mean.

Even the rules go against each other. Take for example G15 where it states that a robot is in the process of loading until it leaves the loading zone. When looking at example 6 it says "Robot "RED01" is in the red alliance loading zone, is already loaded with a tetra, and is waiting for a path to clear to the center goal before moving in to the rest of the field. Robot "BLUE01" approaches the loading zone, and blocks RED01’s attempts to leave the loading zone and score on the center goal. The robots come into contact several times while BLUE01 blocks RED01. No penalty is assessed to either alliance, provided BLUE01 acts within the limitations of <G21> that prohibit pinning for more than 10 seconds. RED01 is not retrieving a tetra, so no violation of <G15> has occurred."

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Three words come to mind that explain this mess:

"Design by Committee."

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I agree. I know how FIRST needs to protect the game before it's released. But I think a lot of this stuff each year would get resolved by letting some veteran team members take a shot at the rules to pick them apart for clarifications and discrepancies. It's not that I don't think the committee's are capable. But I do know that there are plenty of veterans out there that can visualize these matches before they happen based on past experiences. Then foresee the kinds of problems that might unfold.
I would like to be the first to volunteer as long as it involves sequestering in Hawaii until game release.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Unfortunately Joe, I cannot. However I do know that this specific scanerio was discussed more than once during the regular head referee communications between regionals. And specifically for the reason that teams will rush back to their home zones to score the extra 10 points at the end of a match, it was determined that in these cases the tetra was NOT considered to be an extension of the robot. Only tetras touched BY ROBOTS should be eliminated from scoring.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Unless we are missing something, it looks like another Q&A is needed asking: Is a tetra considered STACKED if it is in contact with a TETRA of the same color which is held by a ROBOT of the same color?

I'll search for other such questions, and if I don't find any, I'll post it an Q%A. This is the sort of thing that should be discussed and clarified by the head referee at the Championship. However it is defined, it will hopefully be scored the same on all the fields in Atlanta.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

OOOHH ... ME TOO ... ME TOO!! ;)

But seriously ... I will definitely offer my time and energy to help in any way I can to work with future game design and rules committees to help provide clear and consistent rules that are easier for the teams to understand and the referees to enforce. :)

I also agree that protection of the secrecy of the game prior to release is extremely important, but I do hope something like this could be worked out to help minimize these messy situations in the future.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

This same situation could apply for when the robots are behind the endzone line, if they are holding a tetra which is outside the endzone, but yet their robot parts are not touching anything outside the endzone, would they still get teh 10pts?
Another case would be - if a robot is holding a tetra, and accidentally swings it into a tetra sitting on the AutoLoad station, do they get a 10pt penalty (for touching a LZ tetra before being in the LZ). Is the tetra part of the robot in this case?

I guess the better question to ask, and to get an official update released, is "Please identify ALL cases in which a tetra is considered an extension of the robot". (posted in Q/A). Specific questions could be asked also, but at least they would have to think about specific situations. And for this one, they should release a defined update so that everyone know what the rule is.

As far as I have read in the rules, the only time a tetra is part of the robot is in the HP loading zone...
Which by the way, at one regional there was a disablement call because a kid "re-touched" the tetra he had just loaded.... I believe it's Q/A 1789 that states this is NOT a penalty. If you are loading a tetra, and it doesn't seat properly, you can reposition it. That penalty should have only been if he touched a tetra that was already on the robot previously.....

I think that Q/As that are vital to the game rules (such as above) should all be addressed in the Updates... and not just left in the unofficial Q/A system where the refs or teams may never see them.

You know what else I'd like to see in the future - in the game rules book, a condensed/summarized list of all the penalties. To me, it would make it much easier to read and find penalties (for teams and refs), and it would be easier to identify when they make updates to them, rather than an updated rule being embedded somewhere in the text.
At the very least, I'd like to see the rules less spread around in the rule book... For example, you have some safety rules/penalties that deal with the HP in the Safety section... and then in the Game section, you have additional penalties that may apply to the HP. It would be nice if any penalty that dealt with the HP was in one area, penalties with the robot in another, etc.. So that it reads more fluidly.. That's my opinion though. I know that if I'm looking for a rule on the HP, I probably have to read the entire rule book to find it... (for some, it would be a good thing to re-read the rule book numerous times). I understand why they have it sectioned like they do, but I just don't think it's as easy to read. Ultimately, a summarized penalty list would be ideal, imo.

I'm a ref, and I've read the rules.
 

If he let go and it wasn't set properly, he can change it there. If the robot leaves and comes back, he can not touch it.


Wetzel

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I also noticed this - I wonder how they enforce this... I may post a Q/A (did post) asking which is really valid, if nobody else has... Guess it makes it easier for refs to call just by calling a penalty if you touch a robot while they're in the Loading Zone.. but they should remove/update the examples that discuss the situations above.

My point exactly.... it was the one he just put on, without the robot ever moving, and I think without the HP ever going back to his pad.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I think you're right about "identify all the cases where a tetra is an extension of the robot" being the best question to ask. Maybe I'll ask it if no one else does, but I'll probably wait for an answer to the specific one about "tetras held by robots touching capped tetras" befoe doing so.

The more this discussion continues, the more I realize that I had a VERY EASY JOB as a referee in 2003 compared to what this year's game demands.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I know that there was a lack of information at Palmetto, they threatened a penalty at me when I ran out of tetras and starting taking them from my alliances stack which is quite within the rules. Although it was later clarified that you could do that after myself and a mentor argued with the ref who claimed it was illegal.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

This may or may not be a good solution, but next year FIRST should have the head refs and as many other refs as possible take a quiz on the rules or ref book (if there is one). Alternative: have an animation of a tough call. Have the refs watch it and make the call. Reveal the answer (if there is one) and why to the refs, or relase that situation and how it will be called to the teams in an update if there is no "right" answer. Above all, make sure the refs understand the rules so they can do their job well and fairly.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I agree on the test idea, every member of our team has to take a test on the rules in order to travel with the team, why shouldn't the refs have to?