Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I don't want to be un-gracious and un-professional , but at a regional we recently attended, there was an, uh, curious lack of knowledge of the the rules demonstrated by the officials, and there was at least one "new" rule added for the competition in question.

On the Friday, there were essentially no loading zone interference penalties called. You could drive into a robot collecting tetras from either the HP or auto loading zone, and not receive a penalty. Later in the event, some such penalties were given (in one case to the wrong alliance), but in the quarter final round, 10 point penalties were given for LZ interference rather than the 30 points specified in the rules. Did even the head referee read the rules?

Then, there was the "special rule." The coaches were not allowed to cross the "starting line," even after the end of the autonomous portion of the match. Very interesting.

I guess my point is this. Is there a system for assuring that head referees know the rules? Are there any guidelines for training the sometimes inexperienced "associate" referees? When I was a referee at the Championship in '03, I was very familiar with the rules and the game, but the head referee had a very useful meeting with the rest of us going over the specifics of what a referee needed to look for during matches. Apparently that didn't happen at the event I recently attended.

We all know that referees are volunteers and we appreciate their work, but it appears that there needs to be a better system for making sure they are prepared to perform their important service to the teams.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Refs vary from regional to regional with some knowing the rules in and out, and some not even recognizing the simplest of offenses. I can only hope that only the best of refs can referee at the nationals. The thing that really bothers me is when the refs called a drivers meeting to state and specify certain offenses the refs then called the exact opposite of what they had ruled in the meeting. I can only assume that the nationals will have the best refs possible.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Kit did this pop up in Denver too? I was wondering what to make of it as a missunderstanding from someone at UCF, as it was never officiated to me.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

The same thing was noticed at one of OUR recently attended regionals,

The officials there made us take our replacement gearbox (Identical gearbox to the ones on our robot (the kit boxes))apart in our school van and bring it in dissassembled and then re-assemble it inside. The rulebook says that we are allowed to bring replacement parts that were exactly physically and functionally identical to those on our robot. The same ref. picked up a red and a blue tetra that had been stacked and uncapped from the same goal and replaced them on the goal with no penalty. This seems wrong to me.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I feel your pain. At L.A., in the final round, one of the blue robots tipped the best red robot. No penalty was called, though intentional tipping is a 10 point penalty. Worse, this occured in the human loading zone, which makes it 30 for interference (+10 for tipping?) The refs should, ideally, know the game rules, safety rules, and size rules inside out. Then they should act on them, including entanglement and tipping.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

If I were to quiz many of the participants at a regional on the rules of the game OR the robot rules, I would bet that most would fail to get 75% or better. Remember that these refs are volunteers and do their best. Most of them do not spend 6 weeks working on robots or studying the rules as do many of us. All we can do is encourage and try to educate in a constructive way. I have found that most refs when shown the correct rules are happy to adapt. The time to approach them is not after you play and feel wronged, but before or after the days play or maybe at lunch if they have time.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Great! I'll spread the word: "Lunch on Steve in Atalnta!" :cool:

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

More like, whoever FIRST can get to sign up.

Many people who are on teams right now signed up to ref at events other than where their own team was competing. Lots of these teams are probably going to nationals, meaning FIRST has already lost a large pool of qualified individuals.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I was a ref at the championship in 2003 after the team I was with at the time, 1062, was unable to qualify for and attend the "big event." I will volunteer to ref again at nats in the event that my team does not attend. From my experience, the regionals are the events where refs would be harder to find. At least I have not been in a position where I would be available and willing to ref a regional. Of course, if someone would pay my way to a regional which my team was not competing in, I'd do it.:)

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

...although if Redateam were in Archimedes, couldn't FIRST theoretically place that trained ref on, say, Galileo?

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

But if that ref is a mentor for said team, they'd be needed by the team, and could not volunteer.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Says who? BeachBot mentors have volunteered at many regionals. Admitedly, they have done so as inspectors and safety officers. However, I know of a former 696 student who refereed at L.A. where 696 competed. I don't think that he was any easier on 696 than on any other team. I can't say that for all refs who have a team affiliation, however.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I didn't mean to say that exclusively, because they're on a team at the event, they cannot volunteer, because of impartiality, or any other reasons, but rather that if you are a technical mentor for a team, the team will probably need your help throughout the competition, which would rule out the possibility of refereeing.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Depends on the team. 330 has a reliable bot, so we can spare mentors unless something really big breaks, but for other teams, say 1697 (Gyros, who were a rookie at LA and had a robot that kept breaking or not being ready), mentors may be in short supply.
If a team has a lot of students and help is needed, the team can spare the students if they are needed. I spent Houston nationals resetting Galileo and two teammates filled in (at least on Thursday) to do the same thing on Newton. We only had 14 students total on the team.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I agree. I'm a technical mentor and an event volunteer.

My team is fortunate to have several technically strong sponsors and mentors, and an excellent core group of technically oriented teachers. Our students probably get more technical guidance and suggestions than they really need (or want?) during the build period. By the time we get to regional competitions, they are ready to handle what comes their way in the pit and on the field.

I started volunteering as a robot inspector in 2003. I enjoy seeing other robots up close. Sometimes I offer our scouts some advice, but more often they have already seen whatever I point out.

This year, another mentor on our team also volunteered as an inspector on Thursday at St. Louis, then was asked to serve as a referee on Friday and Saturday.

IMHO, mentors make excellent volunteers at FRC events because we have already committed several weeks effort to understanding the specific objectives, strategies, and rules for that year's challenge. FIRST always needs more volunteers. Mentors who anticipate having time available at an event should consider volunteering, particularly in areas where their detailed knowledge of the rules would be of greatest help; e.g., as referees and inspectors.

This year I served as lead robot inspector at St. Louis. I also helped with robot inspections at Buckeye. And I will be inspecting robots again at the Championship, where I hope to see many other team mentors who have time to volunteer.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

That's not true. Our mentor was a ref at the championship event in our division. Every time we came onto the field, he would take a break and let someone else temporarily sub in so it wouldn't be bias. We needed him with us for the trip, and he was with us... just down on the field :D




GO 1403!!!

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

It seems to me most of the problems are out in areas that are fairly new to FIRST (like denver and the west coast). UTC I believe had most of the same refs from 2004 and these guys were really good.

FIRST is like any sport, bad calls will be made.. Who cares? We just have to get over it and move on because no matter how much we complain they won't change a call.

Look at baseball and how many strikes are called balls or balls called strikes. In basketball some fouls are called offenseive when the should be defensive etc.. It's all part of the game.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I was dissapointed at the West Michigan Regional. When you hit a robot in a loading zone, its a 30 point penalty. They are trying to keep the human players safe. When a robot crosses the drivers plane and the drivers get knocked in the head with a tetra, its only a 10 point or even no penalty. On Friday, a robot trying to cap the center/home row on our side breaks the plane and drops a tetra on me, the other driver, and our coach. Our coach had a busted lip, I had a bump on my head, and the other driver had a sore sholder. The opposing alliance got nothing. Not even a warning. Saturday in the final rounds, we were hit yet again. This time the tetra was higher and hurt more. All the opposing alliance got was a 10 point penalty. I guess safety isnt a concern. The 2 robots deserved 30 point penalties and their robots being disabled.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

We were at the West Michigan Regional, mostly had to play defence as I totally underestimated the real friction losses in our arm motor assemblies. I'm not going into bad calls and aggressive defence...
My main comment is rules on how to play the game don't effect the PHYSICS of putting 8 and 12 pound objects at heights of sometimes over 14 feet on robots with 28" by 38" bases that weigh only 133.4 lbs or less that can travel as fast as 14+ feet per second. It's time for SAFETY NETTING. 302's drive team shouldn't have been hit once by flying tetras mush less twice.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

The west coast is not new to FIRST. We have had teams since 1995, and regionals since 1999.

West coast regionals should, infact be the most consistant of any in the nation. Sacramento, PNW,SVR, and Vegas all had the same core ref crew. All the mentioned regionals also had FIRSTer's with lots of experience reffing in addition to the core that had been to all the others.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

At the regionals I've attended, most of the volunteers at regionals are
from a FIRST team at the event, (with the exception of students from the university hosting the regionals). Frankly, where else would you get volunteers? I've ref'ed at several events, and the fact is that most of the refs are directly involved with a team. They have to sign a paper stating that they will be impartial. If they can, they sit out the matches containing their
team. If not, they take themselves out of any judgment calls such as
tipping. The tendency is actually to be harsher on your team than you would
normally.

At the Championship last year they only selected refs who had done at least
one regional. And again, most were associated with a team. But for the most
part they were assigned to divisions other than their home teams. This is
why it's so hard to find volunteers. You want to watch your team but you
are too busy, and you don't get many breaks (although the free food is
good). This year it will be worse as many more refs are needed and I don't know what the selection process was.

And yes, the refs do read the rules, but I challenge anyone to be able to
memorize 20 pages. The head refs had weekly conference calls to discuss the rules and special training. The other refs have training at the start of the event, and do revisit the various calls during lunch breaks. Most have summary sheets that they use as a reference but occasionally have to go back to the whole rule book as a check. But the rules aren't clear cut and judgment calls have to be made, many in a split second. It's harder than it looks.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

VERY good point. I have a bump on my head because of it. I think that a 30 point penalty for hitting a robot in the loading zone to protect the human player should also apply to the breaking the plane and dropping tetras on drivers heads. I know i will be wearing a helmet next time

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I have always been a little bothered by the fact that many refs/inspectors/judges are active members of FIRST teams and in many cases teams that are attending the particular regional that they are volunteering at. On several occasions, I have even seen volunteers throw on a team t-shirt and walk with a team when they win an award! How can you have any faith in their impartiality when you see stuff like that?

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Well - you have faith. You expect that those members (usually adult team mentors) exhibit GP, and can step aside when it comes to being partial to their team. In some cases, if they have to ref/inspect/judge their own team, they may be harder on their own team.
As stated, many refs will step aside if their team is competing, or they will simply not be "in charge" of reffing their robot, or they will not enter into discussion about a judgement call on their team.
Inspectors - there's usually more than one inspector, so they will allow another to inspect their teams robot.
Judges - the judges judge different awards, and these people are typically chosen by the planning committee for specific reasons. I would say that there are few cases where judges are directly related to any particular team competing there. And even so, in most cases, the judge will not say anything regarding their team, so as to not have bias. i.e. If a team submits Chairman's at a regional, then that judge won't be in charge of that award, they'll be in charge of another one with a different group of judges. There's enough judges to make those decisions, so you shouldn't expect that one person to have biased the entire juding panel.

You have to trust these people. They're upstanding people - Most dont' even want to be in a position that has conflict of interest, so they will do what they can to remove themselves from it (without having to remove themselves from that volunteer position). It's typical for team members to volunteer at regionals that their team is competing because it makes sense. They are there already, and regionals need the volunteers. While at times there may be conflict of interest, you have to expect that they will avoid the conflict however they can. If they don't, then either we start losing a large number of volunteers, or we have a big issue with biased results.... neither is good, and I don't see either happening.

I had a volunteer shirt on at Boilermaker - because I was on the planning committee and volunteering where I could. I threw on my team shirt after matches and during awards - I see no problem with it, same as I don't see any problem with other volunteers doing it. If you think you see some violation of impartiality, then you could talk to somebody about it, but you better have solid grounds to stand on.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

There's nothing wrong with that. What kind of bias can a field attendant have? Or a Queing volunteer?

I can see your concern with regards to referees, but I don't agree with it. I'd say that in excess of 99% of the time, a referee at their own team's event does not hold any bias towards them.

As Amy said, you just have to trust people.

I refereed two events at which my former team was competing, and not once was there a conflict of interests. If there were to be a difficult call involving them, I would gladly stay out of any discussion between referees to avoid influencing anyone else, or even myself.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I also am attached to a team, 111, and performed as lead inspector at Boilermaker and Midwest and will also be at Nationals. I will not inspect my own team, but always leave that to another inspector. As lead inspector, I interact with the field judges and IFI personel to make sure that all participants have a great time and run everytime they go out. I will also work with teams to make sure they are ready to compete, not just inspected but really able to compete. If you come to play, it is my duty to help you play whether I am an inspector or not.
One thing I do is let every team know that I am a Wildstang mentor before I start inspection. I give that team an oportunity to ask for a different inspector if they feel intimidated by my team affiliation. And yes, you will see me wear team colors on Saturday, and I will cheer for my team's alliance. You will get a full, unbiased decision on your robot modifications and weight and size when needed regardless of the color of the shirt I am wearing and regardless of your qualifying position, your action on or off the field, or your latest interaction with my team's robot. You will get all of these things because I am committed to gracious professionalism and the desire to see that every team has a fair chance to compete on a level playing field.


And just so everyone knows, Wildstang team shirts are ALL colors and I take that to mean we are on ALL teams. If you need help, look for a tie dye shirt.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Our team has competed in both Detroit and Palmetto. We found that these 2 regionals were very different. We felt that the refs in Detroit called the rules very fairly and very closely to the way they were written. When there was a question, the head ref explained the ruling to our all student drive team.

Unfortunately, Palmetto was much different. In Palmetto during the driver meeting, the head ref stressed that any robot that either broke the plane of the driver station or approached the driver station with an elevated tetra that could fly over the Plexiglas, would be shut off in the name of safety. We were amazed when we witnessed 3 different tetras fly over the Plexiglas with no penalties or disablement. During the semi-finals, a robot arm extended around the end of the player station and came within inches of our arm operator, still no penalty or disablement.

We witnessed human elements jumping off the floor in order to hang a tetra on a robot in Palmetto with no penalty. We got penalized in Detroit because our human element stood on his tip-toes.

In the final match that determined the Palmetto champion, one of our alliance partners (the number 1 seed) was pulled over by an opponent. There was no penalty. In Detroit, we were told that tipping over other robots would not be tolerated.

In Palmetto, our arm was ripped from our robot as we attempted to cap the center goal. The offending robot did not have a tetra, was not attempting to stack, and chose to attach our robot's arm 10ft in the air instead of blocking the goal. In Detroit, we were told that we would be penalized for using an arm to attack a robot high in the air. Fortunately, we were able to make a new arm segment and re-assemble our robot in time for the next match.

In qualifying match number 56 in Palmetto, it was ruled that a tetra was being supported by another tetra that was hanging above it. I guess gravity points upward in Palmetto. That ruling cost us the tetra, a row, and the match. I will include a picture of the "unseated" tetra.

In each of these cases, the head ref refused to speak to our student drive coach and would only address an adult. Our 18 year old drive coach and senior was highly offended. In her 4 years with First, she had never been treated that way.

This is my 3rd year as a mentor. I have been extremely surprised at how well matches have been ref'ed in the past. I think First has failed this year in 2 ways. #1 The refs have not been trained in a way that would lead to calls that are consistent to each other or to the rule book. #2 This game has so many different elements and rules, that it is very difficult to call. There are 6 robots going to 8 loading stations and 9 goals and there are 6 human elements. There is a lot going on. In the end, the refs may be forced to make scoring calls on each of the 9 goals and remember how many tetras of each color slinkied off of one of the goals.

Even with our second place finish in Palmetto and the warm weather, our team unanimously decided not to return to Palmetto next year.

Oh yeah, please take a look at the attached picture of the tetra that was judged to be not fully seated.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

There is nothing wrong with volunteers being open about their team affiliation or receiving an award that they worked hard for as a member of that team. Wouldn't it be worse if they tried to keep their team affiliation a secret?

At Philly, all refs/inspectors/judges signed a conflict of interest form (quoted below), with rules about behavior toward their team. I don’t know if other regionals are using this form, but it is a good idea to set up the guidelines up front.

This is the first year I have seen this form, but FIRST has always known which teams the volunteers were from. The volunteer application form asks you for FIRST team experience, mostly to make sure you are qualified for your position.

I've been a member of 365 for 5 years and a robot inspector for 3. While I’m inspecting, it is pretty easy to tell that I’m a MOE member. In 2003 and 2004, I had permanent MOE Green hair for all the competitions:D . There was a shortage of volunteers this year at Pitt, so I was asked to help out with the inspections Thursday night. I didn’t get a crew shirt or badge, so I inspected two robots in my MOE shirt. It was a little awkward :o when I had to explain the situation to both teams, but the inspections went off w/o a hitch.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I'm guessing the robot that is holding the tetra that's touching the stacked one is a blue bot. If so, that's why you lost the points.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

That does not matter in this case. For the purposes of "robot touching a tetra" for scoring count (especially in the home zone when robots are returning at the end of a match) a tetra in the grasp of a robot IS NOT considered to be part of the robot. The indicated tetra should have been scored for BLUE.

As a referee for the past few years (including championship last year, GLR and championship this year) I am quite disturbed by the number of reports of inconsistent calls and apparently "made-up" rules at various regionals this year. I am sure that the referees at these events, as well as all other volunteers, share my committment to performing our jobs to the best of our abilities. I can only hope that many of these reports are the result of a mis-communication or a mis-understanding of the call/explanation.

I know for a fact that these forums are watched closely for feedback, and many of these issues have been discussed during the regular head referee communications that occur throughout the season. While I am not a head referee (yet) I will raise these concerns at the referee training sessions and do my best to assure that the rules are applied as consistently as possible at the championship event.

Good luck to all teams competing ... I am sure the Championship will be GREAT this year (as always) ... and I can't wait!! :D

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Can you provide the rule that states that?

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I have conflicting opinions here. Q&A #1789:
Versus the games definitions:
These are obviously clearly in opposition to each other. There are three possible solutions:

1. The Q&A is wrong, teams shouldn't be penalized.
2. The definitions are wrong, and a tetra held by a robot touching another tetra descores that tetra.
3. Both are right. The Q&A definition is strictly for the case of human loading, while the game definition is for all other cases.

I have no idea which of these three is being used, however. 2 seems cumbersome, though, as it requires that Q&As supplant the rulebook, which means that refs need to memorize all the Q&As in addition to all the rules.

EDIT: The rulebook and the Q&As are often at odds it seems. Reading the rulebook, a team could remove a lot of points thus: Blue has 2 tetras stacked at the bottom of a goal, and Red has 5 tetras on top of these 2. Blue touches the higher of its two tetras, unstacking it. The red tetras no longer count since they aren't supported by a stacked tetra. The Q&A changes the definitions to say that this only discounts the same color tetras above the touched one.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I have checked the official rules and find no mention of the tetra being an extension of the robot. The only place it is mentioned is in the Q&A which is wrong about 10% of the time and changes from day to day. No team is expected to read all of the Q&As and decifer what they mean.

Even the rules go against each other. Take for example G15 where it states that a robot is in the process of loading until it leaves the loading zone. When looking at example 6 it says "Robot "RED01" is in the red alliance loading zone, is already loaded with a tetra, and is waiting for a path to clear to the center goal before moving in to the rest of the field. Robot "BLUE01" approaches the loading zone, and blocks RED01’s attempts to leave the loading zone and score on the center goal. The robots come into contact several times while BLUE01 blocks RED01. No penalty is assessed to either alliance, provided BLUE01 acts within the limitations of <G21> that prohibit pinning for more than 10 seconds. RED01 is not retrieving a tetra, so no violation of <G15> has occurred."

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Three words come to mind that explain this mess:

"Design by Committee."

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I agree. I know how FIRST needs to protect the game before it's released. But I think a lot of this stuff each year would get resolved by letting some veteran team members take a shot at the rules to pick them apart for clarifications and discrepancies. It's not that I don't think the committee's are capable. But I do know that there are plenty of veterans out there that can visualize these matches before they happen based on past experiences. Then foresee the kinds of problems that might unfold.
I would like to be the first to volunteer as long as it involves sequestering in Hawaii until game release.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Unfortunately Joe, I cannot. However I do know that this specific scanerio was discussed more than once during the regular head referee communications between regionals. And specifically for the reason that teams will rush back to their home zones to score the extra 10 points at the end of a match, it was determined that in these cases the tetra was NOT considered to be an extension of the robot. Only tetras touched BY ROBOTS should be eliminated from scoring.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Unless we are missing something, it looks like another Q&A is needed asking: Is a tetra considered STACKED if it is in contact with a TETRA of the same color which is held by a ROBOT of the same color?

I'll search for other such questions, and if I don't find any, I'll post it an Q%A. This is the sort of thing that should be discussed and clarified by the head referee at the Championship. However it is defined, it will hopefully be scored the same on all the fields in Atlanta.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

OOOHH ... ME TOO ... ME TOO!! ;)

But seriously ... I will definitely offer my time and energy to help in any way I can to work with future game design and rules committees to help provide clear and consistent rules that are easier for the teams to understand and the referees to enforce. :)

I also agree that protection of the secrecy of the game prior to release is extremely important, but I do hope something like this could be worked out to help minimize these messy situations in the future.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

This same situation could apply for when the robots are behind the endzone line, if they are holding a tetra which is outside the endzone, but yet their robot parts are not touching anything outside the endzone, would they still get teh 10pts?
Another case would be - if a robot is holding a tetra, and accidentally swings it into a tetra sitting on the AutoLoad station, do they get a 10pt penalty (for touching a LZ tetra before being in the LZ). Is the tetra part of the robot in this case?

I guess the better question to ask, and to get an official update released, is "Please identify ALL cases in which a tetra is considered an extension of the robot". (posted in Q/A). Specific questions could be asked also, but at least they would have to think about specific situations. And for this one, they should release a defined update so that everyone know what the rule is.

As far as I have read in the rules, the only time a tetra is part of the robot is in the HP loading zone...
Which by the way, at one regional there was a disablement call because a kid "re-touched" the tetra he had just loaded.... I believe it's Q/A 1789 that states this is NOT a penalty. If you are loading a tetra, and it doesn't seat properly, you can reposition it. That penalty should have only been if he touched a tetra that was already on the robot previously.....

I think that Q/As that are vital to the game rules (such as above) should all be addressed in the Updates... and not just left in the unofficial Q/A system where the refs or teams may never see them.

You know what else I'd like to see in the future - in the game rules book, a condensed/summarized list of all the penalties. To me, it would make it much easier to read and find penalties (for teams and refs), and it would be easier to identify when they make updates to them, rather than an updated rule being embedded somewhere in the text.
At the very least, I'd like to see the rules less spread around in the rule book... For example, you have some safety rules/penalties that deal with the HP in the Safety section... and then in the Game section, you have additional penalties that may apply to the HP. It would be nice if any penalty that dealt with the HP was in one area, penalties with the robot in another, etc.. So that it reads more fluidly.. That's my opinion though. I know that if I'm looking for a rule on the HP, I probably have to read the entire rule book to find it... (for some, it would be a good thing to re-read the rule book numerous times). I understand why they have it sectioned like they do, but I just don't think it's as easy to read. Ultimately, a summarized penalty list would be ideal, imo.

I'm a ref, and I've read the rules.
 

If he let go and it wasn't set properly, he can change it there. If the robot leaves and comes back, he can not touch it.


Wetzel

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I also noticed this - I wonder how they enforce this... I may post a Q/A (did post) asking which is really valid, if nobody else has... Guess it makes it easier for refs to call just by calling a penalty if you touch a robot while they're in the Loading Zone.. but they should remove/update the examples that discuss the situations above.

My point exactly.... it was the one he just put on, without the robot ever moving, and I think without the HP ever going back to his pad.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I think you're right about "identify all the cases where a tetra is an extension of the robot" being the best question to ask. Maybe I'll ask it if no one else does, but I'll probably wait for an answer to the specific one about "tetras held by robots touching capped tetras" befoe doing so.

The more this discussion continues, the more I realize that I had a VERY EASY JOB as a referee in 2003 compared to what this year's game demands.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I know that there was a lack of information at Palmetto, they threatened a penalty at me when I ran out of tetras and starting taking them from my alliances stack which is quite within the rules. Although it was later clarified that you could do that after myself and a mentor argued with the ref who claimed it was illegal.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

This may or may not be a good solution, but next year FIRST should have the head refs and as many other refs as possible take a quiz on the rules or ref book (if there is one). Alternative: have an animation of a tough call. Have the refs watch it and make the call. Reveal the answer (if there is one) and why to the refs, or relase that situation and how it will be called to the teams in an update if there is no "right" answer. Above all, make sure the refs understand the rules so they can do their job well and fairly.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

I agree on the test idea, every member of our team has to take a test on the rules in order to travel with the team, why shouldn't the refs have to?

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Amy,


Attached is a Summarized/Condensed version of the penaltys list handed out at some of the Regionals. Hope it helps - Ensure accuracy before using.

Referee Cheat Sheet
 

We had a cheat sheet at Annapolis. It made for quick and easy refrence of the rules. I thought that all the refs had this, but when I talked with some who had refed further west, I found that they did not. So for all you refs going to Atlanta, here's something to stick in your pocket.


Wetzel

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

The above to files are great references.
I would like to see FIRST incorporate this concept into their rule book in the future - I think it would prove to be a huge benefit to EVERYone.....

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

What we have he'ah is a fail'ya to communicate! :confused:

If you want something done...
 

I'll run off 50 copies of the cheat sheet at work and bring them myself.

Wetzel

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Two years in a row we have had problems during inspection that should have been non-issues but turned into stress for our team. I can't say for sure that it was due to a bias against our team, but the circumstances are a bit fishy.
Last year in LA, our inspector kept telling us that we did such and such "wrong" and how we should have done it the way he would have instead. This was not any specific rule infraction, mind you, it was simply a guy from another team that thought he was the absolute best robot designer/builder ever and that any idea that might have developed outside of his own brain was inferior. The guy could not keep his personal viewpoints to himself and he should, therefore, not have been an inspector.
This year in 'Vegas, we had a size issue that we corrected for re-inspection. Upon returning to the "box" and putting our robot inside, our inspector was about to check us off when another inspector started making a stink. Even though our robot was clearly (visibly) inside of the box, this guy was able to convince all of the inspectors present at the time that it wasn't. They even made us spin the robot around 180 degrees inside the box to see if it would(n't) fit then, it still did (last I checked, if it fits one way it would also fit the other but these guys were determined). Eventually, after several minutes of arguing, I asked to have a head inspector or supervisor make the final call. When the head inspector came over and ran the metal bar up and down the open sides of the box, he declared us "in compliance". The guy who was making a "stink" was not even our inspector.
Our team tries to remain gracious and professional, even under these circumstances. We read and understand the rules and we strive to put a legally competitive robot out on the field. However, occurrences such as these seem plentiful for us and we always tend to walk away from these with very bad tastes in our mouths.
After 5 years involvement with my team, I could not possibly remain completely impartial as a ref or judge/inspector, even in a competition where my team doesn't compete (we still have rivals). I hope that those who feel the same way will refrain from volunteering for these types of positions or at least do not become involved in a situation where your bias may play a role in your decision.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

For anyone who's missed it, here's some recent answers to a couple Q/A:

1852 Section: 4.3.3 Status: Answered Date Answered: 4/13/2005
Q: Please identify ANY and ALL cases in which a TETRA is considered and extension of a Robot. Is it ONLY during the HP loading function, or are there other situations this applies?
A: The tetra is considered part of the robot only during the human player loading sequence. This is for safety reasons. However, a tetra being carried by a robot is still the responsibility of the robot in situations such as de-scoring, removing tetras from an opponents automated loading zone, loading zone interference, etc. In these cases, causality will be the determining factor whether to assess a penalty, etc. Please see updated Q&A 1824 as described in Team Update 18, as well as the updated G15 examples in Team Update #20 that will be posted on Thursday, 4/14/2005.


ID: 1853 Section: 4.3.3 Status: Answered Date Answered: 4/13/2005
Q: Please clarify the conflict between the last (updated) sentence of G15, and the previous examples for certain situations (esp ex 6-7).
A: Nice catch! Thanks for your rigorous review of the rules. The last sentence of G15 takes precedence. Please see Team Update #X20 (this update will be published on Thursday, 4/14/2005) for updated G15 examples.

Sounds like these will be covered in their update today. So basically - the tetra is only "an extension of the robot" when it's in the HP loading zone. However, if you descore, or violate G15, or other things with a tetra in your possession, you'll get a penalty. Makes sense to me, and it keeps with the way the rules are written.

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

Team Update 20 is now posted. It includes some clarifications and changes regarding loading zone interference.

Also, Update 20 lists rules for use of backup robots in the Einstein Playoffs. You can play one Einstein match and officially be a Grand Champion!

Re: Regional-specific rules, etc., and do the referees read the rules?
 

New Penalty Sheet with hopefully all changes incorporated. Ensure accuracy before using - Old sheet did not have the S01 10 point penalty.