auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

From my experience it seemed like the majority of teams seemed to favor the human loading station over the auto loader. Granted some of the robots were not capable of using the auto, but it seemed like it was used a lot less frequent than planned. From time to time, I also noticed robots were simply just waiting to get onto the human loading zone, when the auto's were open.

We were quite capable of using the auto loader, but we had trouble getting up on even that small piece of wood (due to the front omni wheels) I would try to go fast to get onto the triangle, and I always ended up knocking the tetra down with the force of the robot crashing into the side.

My questions are
which one did your team use the most and why?
also, if anyone had omni, or "wonder", wheels in the front, did you encounter the problem of getting onto the zone?

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We tend to use the auto load station for that reason. Many teams use the HP station better, so we work out of the auto load station and stay out of their way.
Also, is it quicker for us to use the auto load station. The HP station just takes too much time.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Our driver, Eric, can do both human and auto-loading very well, however, its considerably quicker for him to use the human loader primarily because it doesn't require quite as much precision ;)

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Ive actually noticed that there has been quite a variety of which one to go to...

111, 45, 108, and 65 seemed that they only used the auto loader (and did it all very well) at midwest

whereas someone like 71 went to the human player several times.

Personally we use the manual loader, but have pulled a few off an auto loader. The way our pneumatic arm is designed, we dont get the maximum height needed to cap with a few tetras on the goal already if we go to the auto loader.


We might try a little auto loading in Atlanta

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We used the human player station, soley because we had 2 24" pneumatic cylinders that used up most of our air in the tanks, so when we went to the human player we left our arm in the up position to conserve air. We could have used the auto station but it took too long to align and used too much air lowering the arm.

As far as the omni wheels we had a few issues getting into the loading station. once the human player stepped off the pad the robot continued to roll until it hit the wall and it bounced off the triangle a few times and the HP had to run back and the driver would have to re-drive in, but we saw that at our first competition and quickly fixed that in the driver controls.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We are capable of using the both, although I did prefer the human player bcause there was less precision involved in lining up.

Generally I sent the driver to whichever loader was closest to the goal I intented them to score on.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

My team, 65, uses the auto loader for a couple of reasons. (1) for our strategy right now its really quick (2) not a lot of teams use it so we will always have one open and (3) with our skewer right now thats the only place we can pick up from (with the skewer we don't have to be too precise...all we have to do is be on the triangle and be some where in the area of the middle of the plane of the tetra)


It all depends on your robot in which one is better.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

111's design almost demands that they have exclusive access to both autoload stations. In one qualification match where we were allied with them, we used the human player to good effect. Our drive team is very fast picking up tetras from the autoloader, so that's what we preferred to use.

Maybe we'll redesign our robot before Championship to hold a stack of tetras the way 71 does, and make multiple stops at the human player station? Nah...

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We use an arm to pick up the tetras, and since it's driven by motors instead of pneumatics, if we use the manual loader, then when the tetra is placed on the arm, the arm will fall down (since there's no power being applied to keep it up, since the robot is dissabled), and the tetra will fall off. Auto works fine for us as long as the field attendents are on the ball and keep refilling the loader.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

The Friarbot has a pneumatically-powered claw that opens and closes. In competition, we exclusively used the automatic loading station, opening the claw to grab a tetra and then closing it again to withdraw. I don't know quite how a human could put a tetra on our (opened) claw with the robot disabled - it would probably be possible, but we've never tried.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

It is possible for us to use the auto loader, but it require far too much time and precision to aim correctly as to not hit the tetra b4 entering the loading zone. We can enter the zones with ease now though (with our omni wheels too!), so the human zone isnt too much of a problem. But if we're not careful, we can have a bit of trouble getting off, as the wood is just enough of a hieght difference that it can cause one of our wheels to loose contact with the floor and spin out. But shims helped all but solve that problem.
Teams that can use the auto loader quickly tend to do so, because it is generally faster and less crowded. But many teams cannot use it reliably and/or quickly, so they choose to use the human instead.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We use solely the autoloader, if you watch the Las Vegas Regional on NASA you can see :D We chose this because our robot is disabled for at least 3 seconds even if Michael Johnson is our human player. So instead, we use an anvil as our human player (Ian) and have many different software feedback sources to ensure our arm grabs from the auto loader fast.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

1278's major problem was our arms design, We used a center mounted 4 stage continuous forklift style lift. Due to design issues we just could not get the first section to come down. Our strategy was to start near the autoloader, use it once, get one quick cap then use the auto loader

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We work around our alliance partners, but I prefer the auto tetra loader.


GO 1403!!!

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We could use both stations. We primarily used the human player becuase the human player could put them on our base. We used the autoloader a few times but it usually wasn't worth it.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We can use both the auto and manual loading zones, but due to the rule <G15> I have found that you have a better chance of getting to the human loading zone under very defensive matches. Combined with low human error of tetra placement on the robot, i find the human loader a faster and more reliable source of tetra supply.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We use the manual loading zone because it is impossible for our robot's design to be able to use the auto loader and be on the triangle.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We actually can use both loaders but our arm allows for a much faster pick-up from the auto loader, and we have yet to try the auto. The only way we would use the human loader would be if we were alligned with a team like Wildstang that uses both loaders one after the other, or if two teams we are alligned with can only use auto. We have yet to human load so we might give it a try in a practice match in Atlanta and see how it works for us.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Our robot was origionaly designed to load from the auto loader, but after a little mishap with the forks puncturing an air conditioner we decided to cut the ends off. Now we can only do human player zone...not that I'm unhappy, :D I'm human player :p

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

A couple of thoughts:

1) There was a spreadsheet created some time ago that calculated that going for the auto-load stations was more efficient time-wise. I believe it is here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pa...le&paperid=416

2) However, that spreadsheet did not account for the extra time that most robots seem to need at the auto-load stations to be EXACTLY perpendicular to the loader.

3) For the manual loaders with human players, the robot can be at any angle to the load station (but still "INSIDE" the load station triangle). At three regionals, I would say that the ratio of robots using human players versus auto-load is about 75% human, 25% auto.

BUT....in an alliance, be sure to seek robots that can be positioned on either side of the field for a quick pick-up at both auto and human load station. If your robot can ONLY go to the human-load station, it might not be valued as highly in an alliance.

ALSO.....by far, there have been a lot of penalties for "foot faults" by the human players either passing each other (three people in a skinny area) and setting feet outside the zone or by NOT having both feet on the ground while placing a tetra.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

well are driver Jeff and uhh co pilot Eric would get the vison tetras off the floor and then come to me...Doug :) so manuel

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

with our robots skewer we can be at any angle as long as we are on that triangle and our skewer can break the plane of the tetra.


that is the biggest reason i do not like the human loader. one you can get a 10 point penalty for lifting your foot off the floor in the box. two you can get disabled for touching your bot. three your human player can disable you robot in auto mode, screwing it all up, by shifting their weight from one leg to the other. there is too many risks involved in using the human loader. and from what Ive seen on most robots it takes longer then the bots that go to the auto loader (i.e 65 66 67 68 111 108 45 and the list goes on)

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Good adds Stevie,

1) Yes, some robots with "skewers" can get the tetra in auto-load and NOT be exactly square to the loading zone. But I'v also seen a lot of robots miss tetras and the attendants then have to reload. Plus the tetra tends to fall INSIDE the field, thereby creating a traffic roadblock.

2) Yes, I've heard about the human players shifting ont he pads. I see a lot of human players being told to face AWAY from the field during auto mode in order to HOLD STILL. But overall, if they're in the middle of the pad, it shouldn't be a problem. In the future, the pads shouldn't be "in the loop" during autonomous modes anyways.

3) The one big "plus" to human loaders is that it a) involves more team members and b) creates some more randomness to the overall game. Just treat your human player(s) as if they too were robots; hard for us humans to do!

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

we had the problem that we couldn't use the human zone because hte arm wieghs too much and juts falls down as soon as the power is cut...
so Auto here!

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We can use both the auto and human loaders. Whichever one we are closer to is the one that we will use. We actually timed ourselves, without the drivers knowing, and we found that we were about three seconds faster in the auto loader, but it all depends.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Why don't you use a Gas Spring?


GO 1403!!!

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

when the power is cut our arm will stay up but once the weight of the tetra is put on it immediatly falls. thats a reason we don't use our human player.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Coming into competition we thought that we were mainly going to use the human loader to place tetras on our back, but after a day of practice matches, we realized that autoloader was faster for us. We would use the human player station every once in a while to put a tetra on our back to save the tetra for the end of the match for a final stack, but our strategy changed from loading them our back to using the autoloader and stacking as many as we could, although our strategy of loading tetras on our back is still fully functional we prefer the autoloader.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

As long as either of our robots front wheels are touching the triangle (and at just about any angle) we can pick up from the manual loader.

The manual loader and human player are both about the same speed for us because we can leave our lift high when going to the Human which makes up for the running time. The lift has to be low to work from the manual zone so it evens out.

For me it just depends what side of the field I'm driving from (which zone is easiest to see) and which goal needs a tetra.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

The whole 10 vrs. 13 second auto to human loading times were based on the driver (pablo) lining up the robot correctly BUT this was timed from last cap to load. From load zone to cap about 8 sec on both.

P.S. i was the one secetly timeing them

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We can use either human or auto. However we prefer auto because that was how our driver practiced throughout the season and we never did any official training for our human player.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Over the course of two regionals, with two quarter-finals, and a semi-final, our human players never left the mat. They really did a great job; never got a single human player penalty.

We decided early on to go with speed versus quantity. Human player loading was just too slow. OTOH, the autoloader was always loaded and ready for us to snatch a tetra, or we'd simply snatch one off the floor.

Robots that carried multiple tetras, on the other hand, almost always needed the human to stack them on. We decided against that for a number of reasons. The first was that as the opponents were much more likely to defend against a stacked robot. The second was that in the same amount of time it took them to load and deliver four or five tetras to one or two goals, we could deliver four or five tetras to four or five goals. And finally was the dreaded disablement if the HP accidentally touched the robot or a loaded tetra.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Hi,
We used human loading station exclusively for the following reasons.
1. Our human player is 6' 3" and can place the top of a tetra about 7' in the air onto the end of our robot arm.
2. The robot arm is elevated about 54 degrees(at start) which is the angle we use for stacking a tetra and it is extended about 10 feet.

So, human player loads the tetra, driver turns robot to goal, extends arm to necessary length and decreases the elevation to set the tetra down.

Now, in order to pickup an autoloader tetra, the arm needs to come down to about 5 degrees which takes about 10 seconds. So thats 10 seconds down, grab tetra, 10 seconds up....wastes a lot of time.

Regards,
Chuck

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

see we can sit here and argue back and forth which one is better but in the end it's what one your robot can do the best. i have seen a lot of great robots that use the HP all the time then the other great robots use the auto loader all the time. it all depends on strategy and how your robot was built.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We can pick up two tetras much quicker from the "auto loader" so that is what we usually use. Also, we can, and do use the auto loader during autonomous, while the HP is not available. We sometimes use the human player when it is convenient to do so, and we like to give Maia, our very good human player, something to do once in a while.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

I honestly don't think our use of the HPZ zone is at all detrimental, in fact, I think it's an advantage. I estimate that our time in the zone on average is about 7 seconds. Where as most teams take a bit longer at the AZ. We can do this consistantly at around the same speed, and so far, without a single HP penalty I'm happy to say. :D :p

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We use the manual loader, because it's better. All the best teams that I have seen prefer the manual loader. But the auto loader has its advantages in the elimination rounds.

During the seeding rounds, using the auto loader heavily tends to be a disadvantage to most teams that do it. It is usually either slower or more risky, and tends to have a higher rate of failure in obtaining a tetra.

However, for the elimination rounds, in which efficient offense is king, three good robots can't all use the human load zone efficiently, especially when they have to cap goals on the auto loader side. So in alliance selection, team 293 looks to choose one robot that can use the auto loader or pick tetras off the ground.

When we picked in Philly, we chose 358 with our first pick, who mostly used the human loader. Our second pick was 834, because they could use the auto loader and pick tetras off the ground. We actually had them ranked 5th (I believe) on our pick sheet, even though they were in 35th place overall and there were several bots with better capping averages. Our alliance was one of the best coordinated I've ever seen. We beat the 8 seed in two games, then the one seed in two games, and we came close to winning the regional.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

My team has stuck almost completely to the Human Loading station. We have the capability to use the auto loading station, but in terms of reliability and speed the human loading station is just faster.

I'm pretty sure my team had one of the faster human players in FIRST. I was going through some of my teams video of our last regional and counted how long it took for him to load a tetra on. He averaged about 1.3 seconds from when the robot shut off to when the robot was re-enabled. We nicknamed him the blur.

Now that being said, I do think going to the auto loading station is useful. My team has devised a method that we think will work and ease our picking up of tetras at the auto-loaders. (namely ramming the wall to make sure we're straight ;)).

Either way, I present The Blur:

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

ok it all depends on the robot if the human loader is faster. i remember once in Midwest we picked up a tetra from the auto zone drove over to our home middle goal and scored it in 7 seconds. while some of the great teams love the human zone (71and 648 off the top of my just woke up head) there is other great teams that go to the auto zone and do it so much faster then the human zone. if the team is like us, can drive to the auto zone,pick up the tetra, dive to the goal, and score it in 7 seconds, and it takes a human player 7 seconds to run to the robot, place the tetra and run back, then i think that the auto loader zone is way better. the auto loader zone has almost no penalties for your team also. the human player has a 10 pointer, a 30 pointer, a penalty that can disable your robot. in my opinion the bad out weigh the good for the human player zone.


Steve

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Back in the first week (design week), the requirement for all designs was that it could auto-load. eventually, we came up with a robot that is only good at auto-loading. It turns out that human player loading was more important that I though, and that auto-loading really wasn't worth it.

There is a theoretical time advantage to auto-loading, but usually it takes a few tries to actually load a tetra, like sticking the arm out, pulling it back, turning slightly, and sticking the arm out again. With human player loading, you go to the zone, and the human player runs up and places a tetra on the goal. It is very painless since people are smarter than robots. :yikes:

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Well we use the same type of strategy. Ever since the UTC Scrimmage we have never used the auto zone. After making the necessary adjustments we now only use the human player zone. We have 2 human players one known as Crash (me) officially announced @ UTC NE Regional and Flash. There r pictures of both of us on here but this is only the pic of Flash. Its more blurry :P.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pi...&quiet=Verbose

1.3 seems a little unrealistic. You must have only timed him without loading a tetra. I can load 3 tetras on our robot in under 15 seconds in game situation. (not meaning to brag). to get a more accurate time you should set up in a game situation and then have him load.

-Crash

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

Essentially, for us, this did work out as a point of precision, but it really depended on the robot for other teams. I was just trying to get an idea of who was doing what.

In concern to the omni wheels, if anyone saw my safety glasses at atlanta, there was a sensor attached to a piece of aluminum near the front part of the chassis, that when raised to the height of the piece of wood used for the auto loader triangle (I think it ended up being 1/4 inch), would make an LED attached to my glasses go on (it was plugged into the control panel), so I didn't have to worry about getting the actual omni wheels on the zone or risk penalty points for not being on it. A mentor on out team came up with the idea - it was quite helpful!

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

401 has a turret, and coming out of our autonomous mode, we are facing forward, and our arm is more or less sideways. Also, with the parallel arms down, we can get almost right up against the wall. So, when we had control of the robot, we would drive alongside to the station, and just raise the elevator and then immediately have a tetra.

The turret allowed us to load from any angle. We even loaded one as we backed into the loading zone, which was pretty cool.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

We used which ever one was most convenient for whatever we wanted to do next. Though in the Finals we used mostly the HP to stay out of our partner's way.

Re: auto vs. manual loading zone, which one?
 

If you noticed on Einstein feild, there were two robots for the auto loader and one for the human loader on each alliance. That proved that teams would rather go to the auto loader. And if you noticed how many tetras were up in those matches, that would not have been possible if they were all using the human loader.


Stevie