who wants a new home for nats
 

i was just trying to see how many people actually want to move nationals. i mean aside from costs, i am fine with nationals at disney.

If it means that all teams get to play, then I'm all for it.

New home? That depends.
I would support moving only if it meant every team that wanted to go could go.
Otherwise, Disney it is.

Wetzel

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Its spring again!
Spend time outside!
Mowing.

I voted no...
 

...now here's why. I have been on both sides of the coin as far as travel expenses - there have been years when I've had everything covered, and years when I've had to pay a few hundred dollars out of my own pocket in order to go. So, needless to say, I know it's harder having to pay it out of pocket, but I know there are ways it can be done, so I'm not using that as a factor.

The other main argument I've heard for moving the event is "if we move it from Disney to site X, everybody would be able to go." While that may indeed be the case for this year, what about 2 or 3 years down the road, when FIRST outgrows that venue? Are we going to move again, so we have a home big enough for the next few years? Or are we then going to put restrictions on who can and can't go, sparking the contraversy that we saw this year, all over again? What the whole issue with qualifying for nationals boils down to, in my opinion, is those teams who have been around for a few years are used to being able to go to nationals every year. Now, the growth of the FIRST program makes that impossible. So, rather than accept the inevitable side effect of taking part in a program with the growth rate that FIRST is experiencing, people are looking for an "out," any way that could bring FIRST back to the way they remember it. Personally, one of the hardest things for people to understand in years past when I was explaining the FIRST program to them was the fact that you did not have to qualify for what we called the "national championship." At least partially, this is no longer the case, which I feel is a necessary step for the wider understanding and continued growth of FIRST. And while at this time, the methods FIRST uses for filling the remaining spaces at the nationals may be less than perfect, there will come a time, if their growth continues, that the even/odd methodology will no longer be needed, and all of the spaces will be filled by teams who have proved themselves during the regional events, either the current year or years past. And while I know the years past qualifying methods have been a source of contraversy themselves, if my memory serves me correctly, they were put into place as a compromise suggested by the teams at the team forum in August, so that not all teams attending the national competition would experience the same monetary "crunch" that some teams are now when attempting to plan their last-minute trip to Epcot.

Myth vs. Reality
 

Myth 1: Everyone can go if we move from Disney to _________.

Truth: Central Florida has the highest concentration of hotel rooms anywhere. Even if we find a big enough venue to hold the actuall games, we would have to book years in advance for hotel rooms. Lets not get started on travel in and to the area....

Myth 2: There are other places as entertaining as Disney.

Truth: Yes, but is the security that good? Las Vegas has been brough up numerous times and needs to be delt with. Las Vegas has very little to do for 10,000 kids under 18. Sure, there is the show here and there, but when you see the price for some of the shows, you'll definatly want to go back to Disney.

Myth 3: Travel to Disney is too expensive.

Truth: Aboslutely untrue. Flights to Central Flordia are much cheeper than to many other locations, including Las Vegas.

Myth 4: Disney costs too much.

Truth: Yes, but would you go to a cheep place and not have anything to do and/or its dangerous or to a place thats a little more expensive and has more to do and safer?

Myth 5: Disney is out of tuch with FIRST.

Truth: Gee, didn't Disney managment say that they will accomidate FIRST as long as they go to Disney World? They are going to open a new hotel that can easily accomidate all of the FIRST teams, and they are cheeper than the All Star rooms.

Finally, FIRST should never leave Disney, unless Disney screws up **REALLY** bad on something.

Re: Myth vs. Reality
 

All Star Robotics? :D And that would be a gigantic hotel.

But I do agree that Disney is the best place for nats. Unless we can find a place that can grow and host upto 1500 teams, I think Disney is the best place. There has been much said by both sides of moveing/staying, Disney good/Disney evil.

I agree with you Joseph. Unless Disney screws around with us, I say stay.

Wetzel

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Opinions are not a reason to get mad at someone.

Change the time of year to go to disney. There are alot of time that disney can handle a group our size. The fall is a great time. like November. just not around thanksgiven. I am for having a week long competition than just the 3 days that it is now.


Just think about it. Monday and Tues the West coast. Wed and Thurs. East Coast. Finals Friday and Saturday.

You should be able to run 300 teams thru per coast that is 600 teams. that should hold FIRST for a couple of years.


This would truely give you a National that everybody can go to. and have all the robots there with out telling them sorry wait till next year.

I see this year being a Black eye for the national because there is a team not going to the national that has won a regional and has placed in the top of two others.

I know if I won the national this year it would be like winning a regional.


just my two cents

Yeah! What a great idea: Hold the Nats sometime when disney is empty, make it much longer, so we can stagger the tourney, letting more teams compete.

WOW!

I never would have thought of that in a million years.

I agree with Wetzel, we should only go if we find someplace bigger to host all teams, otherwise, whats the point?

Someplace cheaper would be nice too, the problem with a weeklong Nats is that hotels would cost LOTS of $$$$, and some people/teams cant afford to sit around for a week (school, money, jobs, etc.)

I was for finding a new place, someplace different would be nice

That cedar place sounds neat...

Ben...are you serious? When would we possibly find a time that Disney would be empty? And about this weeklong comp., you know there is a small thing known as school to take into consideration. (forgive me for taking you literally if u meant that sarcastically) And how do you respond to Nate's question of, what happens when we outgrow the new location? What is so wrong with making teams qualify to go to nationals?? Disney has been more than gracious in letting us use their facility and i have yet to hear any reason we should pass up that continuing offer. Kudos to JosephM for his thoughful and thought-provoking answer to this issue.

Errr, I did mention that school, job, and money would present a major issue for a weeklong competition. I too would want teams to qualify, but than you make people angry if they DONT qualify. The Odd/Even system makes little sense, so it boils back down to the whole Qualify for Nats versus "Open to all"

I took some major flak in another post for advocating teams to qualify, as for Disney being empty...:rolleyes: (who are we kidding, its DISNEY:D )

P.S. (I WAS being sarcastic, sorry if that wasnt apparent, i've been trying to moderate lately (the kids in my history class think im a confederate:D )

Personally, I think that FIRST should make teams qualify, and thus, make the Nats a priviledge. This whole Odd/Even system stinks. Then we get back to Rookies again (should they get a free pass to the Nats for first year?)

I'd be fine staying at disney, but the place gets PACKED. Last year, it was crowded (maybe im too used to the NJ countryside:p) something needs to be done a allieviate this problem: cut down amount of poeple by making them qualify, or find a bigger host city.

Personally, if FIRST continous to do this whole all rookies+odd/even+award winning people, we'll need a bigger place, or more divisions

Otherwise, Disney is fine. It has hotels, stuff to do, and is great.

I'm not anti-Disney, but I'd like to know what sort of contract exists between FIRST and Disney.

BTW, the whole 75$ per person deal is worth it. Last year, teams were getting free rides, being paid for by other teams.

But then the whole agruement becomes: how do we make teams qualify for the NATS? and that's bound to tick people off, esp. if their robots didnt win enough awards to get them there (CD, i think, will be at the Nats every year, no worries there:D )

You see? Now I've done it! Someone will reply that I'm being mean, making teams eran there way into the Nats. But hey, i dont hold much back (ask my history class)

--Ben Mitchell

Re: Myth vs. Reality
 

i aggree with myth one, three, and i havent heard about 5: Epcot is a great venue.

Myth 2: There are a whole lot of places more "entertaining" than disney. Actually, disney is not eventhat fun. There are like 6 rides for older kids in the all of the different parks combined. The wait for those rides is an hour and who wants to hav to go back at a specific time with that fast pass thing.

myth 4: Disney costs way too much, and i am not talking about their overpriced hotels and park passes. TO eat luch in the park, its at least 5 bucks, probably more around 10. A place that is ceaper than Disney is not necessarily worse. I mean, there are cheap places, cool places and disney. Disney is just a multibillion dollar corporation that see FIRST as a way to bring in millions year. The nationals could be in a city with like an amusepark nearby or something like that, where there is more to do than go on the same 5 rides all day. I mean, by he end of last year, i was just riding around in the monorail

Who said Disney had to be fun? ;)
There is still Universal down the road and many others.
Just trow Tapestry of Nations in front of me and you'll keep me entertained for hours (kinda like a box and a 5 year old).

The other thing is the Pop Century hotel, which will open latter this year (supposed to open this month, but 9-11 and the travel decline postponed it). It can easily hold all of us and is located next to a place bigger than the Exploraion parkinglot, Disney's Wide World of Sports. This place is huge, convert some of the colusums, parks, and stadiums and it'll defianly be the Nats!

Who needs to be five?

Wetzel

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I play well in boxes.

i like the competitions outside. i wish they haddent moved 3 fields inside. it is more enjoyable (except for the fact that you cannot see the screen) outside. Pluse there isn't a lingering oder in the area (no offence anyone).

I wonder if people who complain about the cost of meals at Disney are paying their own airfare and room costs? That's such a small part of the total cost of the trip. Meals are expensive at Disney but they are expensive at most places you could go. At UTC we were paying $2.50 for a slice of really bad pizza. If you go to a basketball, football, baseball, what ever game the food is going to be as bad as Disney and will not taste as good. So food is really a small piece of the pot.
Airfare is huge and the air fare to central Florida is very cheap compared to other places. The Disney hotels cost more than hotels outside the park but still compare fairly well with hotels in other parts of the country. Especially for what you get. If you put a group the size of FIRST in a lot of those other places than hotel prices would go up because of supply and demand. Plus the transportation between hotels and the venue would add additional costs.
I get the impression that we are going to Disney at a slower time of year. If you look at the park opening schedules you will see that the parks stay open longer the weeks BEFORE we get there. Open hours increase as the crowds do. A few weeks earlier and we'd be in prime spring break time. A few weeks later and we'd be hitting summer vacations. I'm not sure we have too many better windows. The fall is out. No one has time to get organized in the fall. Experienced teams might be ok but rookies would get killed.

Re: Re: Myth vs. Reality
 

FIRST All-Star?
All-Star FIRST?
Rookie All-Star
All-Star Robots <----- This would be 'Way Cool'

Any other ideas out there?

KA-108

new disney hotel...designed by FIRST students
 

So what would an "All-Star Robots" look like? How about some 3D Animations / conceptual renderings? Sounds like a cool summer project to me.... hey maybe it would win next year's Animation award? Oooooh! Sure hope the animators out there hear this.

KA-108 :cool:

Re: new disney hotel...designed by FIRST students
 

Discussion about 3d-modeling here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...1590#post31590

I don't think you can find another place as large as Disney that is willing to help out FIRST and give teams such good rates. It seems like it would be better if all teams that wanted to could compete at Nationals, but it would be very difficult to find a host that is large enough.

As far as extending the competition over additional days, it sounds great, but this would prevent teams on very tight budgets from going. I know of some small teams that have so little money the students (and mentors) that go to Nationals end up paying their own way (airfare, hotels, and food). $700 is already a LOT coming out of a student's (or his/her parents') pocket, and the longer the competition, the more the money.

After this party, I think Disney needs a slap in the face.

I thought Disney did a good job of pulling this event off. The fact that those two huge tents were air conditioned the entire time is amazing. I can't even imagine what was the total cost of putting on this event. The electrical bills alone must have been astronomical. I think Disney is a great venue, I just wish buying the Park hopper ticket was optional. Being a coach I was one of the last persons to leave the pit. By the time I got back to the room and showered it was too late to get to the park. Other than that I was totally satisfied with the Disney experience. :)
Now the overzealous refs and their DQs is another story. :mad:

Ken Delaney

As a reply to the last post, you may never see this but behind Magic Kingdom there are massive buildings. Some are for maintence on monarails, ride maintence, costume shops, and HUGE generators. DISNEY MAKES THEIR OWN ENERGY! They dont care how much energy FIRST uses, they make enough energy in one day to power their ENTIRE PARK.(All 25 million acres) And with the hotels, a hotel for robotics would be cool to us but what about the general public? What person would want to sleep at a robotics hotel? I also like the idea of moving it to the Wide World of Sports complex. Thanks Mrd_uhd for being a great partner in Philly.

Personally, I'm starting to warm to the idea of not going to the nationals at all. It may be that I'm simply getting bored after five consecutive years of Florida trips, but regionals have several distinct advantages. Instead of worrying about whether you're going to qualify for nationals, you could choose instead to go to a far-away regional and make that your big trip for the year. Besides, regionals have far better visibility to the field, you can get a couple more matches, the pits are closer to the field, and I think the smaller number of people makes for a nicer atmosphere. If a lot of teams adopted this strategy, a secondary benefit would be that regionals would become a little more diverse, with more teams from out of state, province, or country.

-Ian Mackenzie
Woburn Robotics
http://www.team188.com

I believe some things that are being overlooked...

As for extending NATS-
Judges- they have jobs & lives, they don't mind giving up a few days but a week?
Refs & volunteers- again with the jobs & lives thing + there are barely enough to run the number fields & tents now.
Cost- I know somebody discussed that extra days means extra $$$

As for moving NATS-
Stuff to do- no place can accommodate like Disney. Park hopper pass my not work for everyone but... You don't need to take the package or even use the passes.
Vegas???- NOT a place I would bring students... I can't see a school approving a trip to Las Vegas.
Transportation- nobody shuttles people like a company used to shuttling sugared-up little kids & grumpy parents.
Starting over- a new place means new "Bugs" that will need to be worked out over time. With our help, FIRST & Disney will learn from their mistakes.

As for Qualifications for NATS-
(revised from one of my other posts)
How about:

8 - The top 8 seeds from each regional qualify
+
4 - All finalists & winners of each regional (6 total -2 top seeds= 4)
+
1 - Chairmans award winners
+
1 - Higest Rookie Seed (possible top 8 or other)
+
2 - Rookie of the year (possible top 8 or other)
x
17 - regionals
=_________________________________________________
272 total from this year.
Add next year's winners & you get about 300
Remember, not all teams can afford to go & how many teams qualify more than once(ALOT).
All of this puts a little less focus on winning & a little more on doing well.

Re: Re: Re: Myth vs. Reality
 

that would be cool

but now to the question at hand...before nats i wanted a new home for nats because the cost was outrageous and i thought it might be good to just move it around....but now that i think about it and have actually experienced it....i changed my mind totally...the only place that could hold us is EPCOt and the only place that could provide enough entertainment for us...(ie the team party(10,000 people cant fit just anywhere))....so no it needs to stay in disney

oOo and some disney news....there wil be a new hotel complex like the soprts but its going to be celebrating decades instead..that project is back underway...and should be finished by next years nats. :D

I personally would like to see the Nationals in Hawaii. The air fare is not as expensive as everyone thinks. The hotels can be reasonable. The beaches are always open. If it is in Hawaii, the west coast schools can participate. We have a fairly new Convention Center that can accommodate the crowd.

Hawaii would be fun, but getting there would be kind of tough. Many teams save money by driving or busing themselves down to Florida. That, and more east coast and midwest teams would need to pay more for the longer flight to Hawaii. I'd still like to give it a shot though.

Enrique, you should've come with us to the nats! It was awesome! Ya, it'd be great to have the nats in Hawaii but I don't think we have a place nearly as big as they had at Epcot. Disney has done a great job so far in hosting the event. So, I think having the nats in Hawaii will certainly not be anytime soon.

However...what I am hoping for is a small regional (maybe 25-30 teams) in the Aloha Isles. Common Hawaii, we only need 4 more teams!!!

What do you guys think?! Would you sign up if there was a Hawaii regional?

yes!! let's move it to california, the weather is really nice here, and we can still have it at disney. besides, i think disneyland and ca adventure are better as far as rides go. maybe even hold it at great america. the rides there are DEFINITELY alot better

also, it would be really cool if there were a hawaii regional. i'm sure many of the californa teams would be eager to attend :)

ok all those people who want to move to california....but as for the REST of you.....HOW CAN YOU WANT TO LEAVE MICKEY MOUSE!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!? :D

Disney is an incredible place... it has NO flaws that I can see... It may be a little pricey but we're all getting our moneys worth. They accomodate us in EVERY way possible. We all get special treatment, we get a park longer than the public does for our personal use.... how many other groups get a park over the paying public?? We take up a HUGE corner of their parking lot... and given.. we're kids.. we leave a lot of trash... hurt things that we don't know we're hurting.. and in general.. are just a carefree group of individuals out to have a good time and compete in a robotics competition. Disney & FIRST, i'm sure, has spent A LOT of money setting up for us and cleaning up after us. The Disney park EASILY accomodiates us too.. there is enough hotels.. and enough transportation.. and its a very fun place. Theres no major problem with it what so ever... The ONLY thing i can think of is its in the bottom right hand corner of our country. If it was in the center, that'd be nice. Then we could all fly an semi-equal distance to the center. Poor Cali kids...

-And nationals shouldn't be an all inclusive thing. Some robots just can't stand up to the level ofplay. Would you stick a 16 yr old kid in the NHL? Or a 4'6" person in the NBA? They just can't stand up to the competition. Its nice to be fair and all.. but Nationals is supposed to be the TOP of our game... the best that FIRST has to offer. Given, every team should be able to go but everyone shouldn't be able to compete. Maybe all the finalists from every regional... all 8 3-team alliances should be invited.. along with the award winners, because obviously, they've done something right. They're the best of the best.. (locally)

I'm all for Cedar Point.