Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

On the same size of field with 50% more robots, I never in my wildest dreams could have imagined that the robots would be so shy about touching each other. This is probably due to penalties but that is left for a different thread.

Right after kickoff I thought since every team had been given a really nice four motor drive system that was relaible and could be working on day one, we needed to have something MUCH better to be on top. Was I ever wrong. I think even just anything that moves can play the game the way it is being played. I never could have imagined so much non-contact action. To me, six motor and/or shifting drives do not seem beneficial at all. I wish I could have predicted this right after kickoff, I imagined double-teaming strategies and everything.

It is disappointing because the teams that strive to create a magnificent drive system are not rewarded because they are not being challenged by other robots in the match. Everyone does their own scoring in their own area and little is done to keep others from scoring.

Some teams strive for maginificence and succeed, but in the end, it does not feel worth it.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

If you heard about Philly. Now, thats was head to head competition. Almost every team had a defensive robot, pushing and shoving.But along with, CAME A LOT OF PENALTIES

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I actaully saw quite a few very impressive drive systems at the finals of the 3 regionals I attended: GLR, Midwest, and BMR.

Maybe I'm not too knowledgeable about drives, but I was really impressed with some of the contact action in a few matches, and the lengths robots went to protect goals and stop those crucial shots.

:) I think as the season develops, and individuals become more well-grounded in their understanding of penalties, there will be a lot more this interaction you're looking for.

- Genia

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I agree with some of this. Many teams had drives that they did not get to show off. I did see some beautiful omni-wheel drives though that worked very well. Our team built a beast of a drive train. It had a lot of power. We got to show off our pushing skills at Pitt, but in Annapolis, as said before, they were very strict on the defense, so we went to stacking.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I've seen some pretty magnificent arms. I suspect those teams that put the effort into making a magnificent arm feel that they are worth it.

I for one am thrilled that unlike the last few yeas, this game isn't being decided by which teams can put the most motors on thier drive train.

-Andy A.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I know where you are coming from but I think our team disproves that point. We are an all-around team that can score but is unstoppable because of our drivetrain. being able to run through other robots does happen a lot in our matches

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

Hey, we don't have the strongest drivetrain in the world, nor do we have an ultra-functional arm, but we do have one of the best strategists and best drivers in FIRST, and when they decide to use the bot and arm for defense like they did today at the Greater Toronto Regional, some amazing action resulted. Ask 1114, 1305, and 1511 if they had an easy time going about their business in the Finals.

There were some powerful and/or maneuverable drivetrains in play at GTR, but they proved to not be as much of a factor as they COULD have been, though (1305's bot sticks out as the lone exception in my mind). Heck, even those teams with marginal drivetrain capabilities failed to take advantage of the opportunity for defense when it was warranted. There were many quarterfinal matches where the weaker offensive teams were content to leave their opponents alone, and guess what, they lost in a not so exciting display of action. The let's go offense, everybody cap mentality FIRST is trying to encourage only works well if the alliances are equally matched offensively. Otherwise, like I've been saying, this style of gameplay simply makes it easier for the more powerful offensive teams to cakewalk their way to victory. In the finals at GTR, we recognized we had no chance in heck of matching the #1 alliance's offensive output. So guess what, we played *just a little* direct defense against them, kept the scores low and close, and were within a few tetras of pulling out a victory. We also just happened to create one of the most reportedly exciting finals experiences many of those in attendance had the pleasure of witnessing. So when FIRST says they want more offense, please don't take them literally. If you believe you can match or exceed your opponent's capping capability, then by all means, have a go at it. However, do not automatically lock yourself into this style of play for the entire competition. Greater Toronto proved this to be true - CONTACT IS OK and makes the game exciting, if you're not running around smashing or tipping over everything in sight. And don't be afraid to use those arms to block access to a goal whose ownership is critical to the outcome of a match. Don't push on the offensive bot's arm, but instead, push on the tetra they're holding, keep your arm straight up in the air, or cover the goal with it. Goes a long way to limiting the effectiveness of an offensive power. Here, it helps to have a strong, maneuverable drivetrain in case the offensive bot decides to attack the goal from a different angle or simply go cap somewhere else. Basketball players use their arms for both offense and defense. It's ok for FIRST teams to do the same. Just remember that like basketball, there are penalties involved for using your arms in an improper manner.

That was the greatest, closest, hardest fought finals action I've ever been a part of. Congratulations to the winning alliance for pulling out a great victory, and THANK YOU to the amazing refs who let the contact and action go on penalty free. No tippping. No ramming. Just excitement. Offense AND Defense. It was a special sight to see.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I am always amazed by how much pushing power a team can get out of a drive train. But I do believe that the motors can be used in a more usefull manor. Like making a more maneuverable maching or a more reliable arm (No pneumatics).

Ah... this year we used the same drive system as last year. A three-wheel design with all three driven and the rear one steered. We accompanied it with an electronic differential which drives two wheels while the other one goes in reverse during the turning process. This made for high maneuverability and some pushing power. The extending body helped a lot with the stability issue. We tipped only once when I kept driving against the wall. And we had a tetra hanging out front. Playing defense was not part of our strategy at anytime.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

Believe, I have been in the boat of where I thought good engineering would have a team prevail. Sometimes the least likely teams are the actual prevailers. I have always learned, you can always do so much better next time around. Always learn from mistakes and study weaknesses. I have always believed, if you put your scouting team to work you will have good results.

My opinion is to have your scouts actually take down as much information whether it be in photography, video, or just pencil/paper. Carry this information over to the next year and work off that. See which teams have stayed consistent over the past couple years.

BAM!

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I wouldn't be too sure about the non-contact At the NYC Regional there was 75% contact or a defensive stratedgy - For instance I believe it was the last match for friday and one of the teams on the red alliance mis-programmed or INTENTIONALLY programmed their robot for a Head on collission at Full Speed. Boy oh boy did that team hear it at the end of the match The official ruling was it was intentional and the team was dq'd for the match =\ after that auton period it was nothing but defensive moves throughout that match. And on Saturday of the event one of the red alliance robots decided to knowck over all the blue alliance robots in my eyes legally (they were not pushing high at all if anything the wedge on the robot flipped over the blue alliances) and yet the refs called for a dq on the team. =\ oh wells but getting back on topic there was many offensive and deffensive stratedgies at the regional.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

We had some contact during the Finals today, and having the refs make an error in the score. But our worst hit was on Thursday on the practice day, I believe our first match, one of our alliance members rammed into our side by accident and our chassis was bent. But today, there were some calls like pinning for 20 seconds that weren't called, but rather just warned. There were also loading zone penalties that weren't called. But overall, Southern California Regional was very cool.:D Our alliance partners were awesome. Thanks to 599 and 702. You guys are awesome and we look forward to seeing you guys at Atlanta or other competitions in the future. There were also some agressive teams in the final match of team 69, 330, and 634 against 980, 968, and 22. But congrats 69, 330, and 634 on winning.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

you're right in one respect; anything that moves can play the game. it was designed that way. but it takes something more to excel at it.

in the past a powerful drive train could probably win you a match. this year's game demanded more from a drive train. it has to be maneuverable, controllable, fast, and able to stand its ground. look at 67, 71, and 111. those are some of the most magnificent drive trains i've ever seen. likewise, i've seen very few matches where everyone was "shy about touching each other". but they are darn careful. in this game, knowing when and how to play defense is just as important as how much power you can put on the floor.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

Thanks to 1138 and 702. You guys were great. This is is for us this season, but we hope to see you next year. I agree with RogerR this years game needed more from the drive system than just power. Our system's maneuverable, controllable, and fast, but against defense robots we had trouble staying under control. Also we kept riding up on other robots in certain matches in Sacramento and SoCal.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

According to rule G25 and from most other Regionals, any wedge that goes under a robot and tips it is illegal and should be DQed. Tipping a robot with a wedge is just as bad as those that ram at high speed. Please note that pushing low with a flat surface and pushing low and upwards are different. Robots with a wedge please be cautious and gracious when you play, all the teams have worked hard to play and should be allowed to play the entire match with their robot upright.
-wayne

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I somewhat disagree with this post. I feel that there was plenty of times when we used both high and low in one match. If we had to "go long", or rather go across the field, we would use high but if a robot tried to get in our way we would shift into low, on-the-fly by the way(a little robot show of ;) ), and get them out of our way.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

302 was getting in trouble for thier robot design and playiing style and had to make adjustments for day 2 of Buckeye so they wouldn't get penalized so much.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I have a video on my computer from the first week of regionals and I see plenty of contact from that. We got tipped 3 or 4 times (we had a high CG but only twice when we went over was it becuase of normal interaction). Also I have videos of us getting spun around in a circle on our front omni wheels. And finally I have a video from a team with 4 wheel omni drive that just slid across the field with a shove. So originally there was contact. Just with so many penalties involving defense it is becoming harder and harder to pull it off penalty free.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

Our team didn't have much contact as we weren't asked to play defense much, but one match another team was guarding us. Our driver kept moving, and we didn't slow down much, just pushed them across the field like they weren't even there. I thought it was absolutely exhilarating to see our robot do that. It wasn't the fact that we pushed them around, it was the fact that they didn't affect us much at all.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I congraulate FIRST for leveling the playing field this year, by providing all teams with a very servicable drive train right out of the box. This allows for an exciting game even for rookie teams. I hope I'm not hearing that the kit was too good this year.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I've seen teams with excellent drive trains take the win and play successfully. It's not the drive train thats getting teams penalized... it's the strategy. Teams use their speed to fly across the field and cap tetras or get in the way of other teams... and then when the they are about to get a push from the other team they can use to drive train to hold their ground or keep the opponents from advancing. I'd expect that if you hit other robots excessively or shove teams across the field with your beastly drive train then you'd incur some penalties, because that is not what the game should be about. Playing defense doesn't mean slamming the other robot around, it simply means graciously preventing them from accomplishing their task. You can do that with out shoving them across the field or heavily ramming them.

With my team, we have an excellent swerve/crab drive system. It took alot of time to design and engineer. I would definitely say it's incredible and it surely hasn't been a disappointment. But for defense we have taken a different approach to stopping the other team. We use our arms to steal tetras in the air from teams or lay our arms over the goals to block them from capping that specific goal.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

see our team was all excited for our two speed gear boxes this year and it turns out we never use them and sumtimes they hurt us becuz we forget to put the air in for them to be engaged and then we cant drive just with the huge tetras and the robots in the loading zones this year's game is not a big driving game it kinda disappointed me but its still exciting just different

nationals here we all come

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

At the Lone Star regional competition I saw a lot of pushing in the matches we were in. One of the guys on our team spent a lot of time working on our drive train and I really think it gave us a huge edge. One thing we did was we would get the back left or back right goal, which allowed us to make many more rows. Having a strong drive train really helped us get back where we wanted to go without wasting all our time. Also, in the semi-finals we had a robot harassing us like crazy. Luckily it didn't drastically impair our performance, though we did have to make some quick repairs right afterwards.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

Wasn't it a bigger field than the past several years? No matter.

It wasn't a pushing year, for variable gear ratios. 2002 was a good year for fast robots, then switching to high torque.

This WAS a year for manuverablity. Pushing and racing didn't matter AS much. getting right where you wanted, however, was very important.

I LOVED this game. I LOVED the kitbot. Watching the finals (after we got elimiated) at Western Michigan, I realized that I was watching a complex, and very accuate, robot ballet as they danced around each other. I've never seen such amazing driving. WAY cooler that the jerky pounding and mashing of controls I've become used to. This was a drivers/controlers game in my opinion. Wonderful!

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

This year we have the best drivetrain Team Fusion has ever had. Its a 4 CIM powered, 6 wheel drive, zero turn radius, tank drive. During the finals one team played defense on us while we were capping and did incur a ramming penalty for it. We were able to push back and push them around in low gear, but they were successful in keeping us from scoring as many tetras as usual. We are very proud of our robot and team despite how we didnt get very far in elimination rounds and cant wait to get to Atlanta and show everyone else how great it is.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I must respectfully disagree.

What you have said, it would seem, is that ALL of the experience that various teams' (including your own) students and mentors gained in creating magnificent drive systems is not rewarding.


Do you really mean to say that all the learning that is involved in designing and building those awesome drive systems is completely worthless?

Perhaps it should be pointed out that that there are plenty of teams that strove for magnificence, succeeded, and feel that it is worth it not only because they succeeded in the competition (see teams 71, 111, and 118), but also because of how much their students learned in designing and building those drive systems.

Additionally, your team and others who spent lots of time designing great drive systems now have this drive system to rely on in future years. You will be able to teach new students how it works, help them figure out ways to make it better, and be able to spend more time during next year's season designing and building other parts of your robot.

-Andrew

P.S. I must admit that I am envious of your situation. I hope that my team can emulate your team's success in designing, constructing, and implementing an awesome drive system in our future robots. :)

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

well i'd say torque and power isn't what this years game is the best for, speed and agility are more important this year than ones ability to charge into another robot. Sure, there will be some bumping and pushing, but this year if you have a robot that can get from point a to point b faster you probably have the advantage. But another factor comes into play this year, an outstanding rookie drive train, with the get tranny, the standard was raised with drivetrains signifigantly.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

At Lone Star there was quite a lot of contact in the the elimination rounds. Robots on all alliances pushed others around the field and there were some mistakes when a robot was tipped over but I do not believe that a robot tipping over should be an automatic penalty on the defensive team. If a robot has a high center of gravity, especially when they have a tetra in the air and a small robot pushes at there base to stop them from capping and that robot tips then there should be no penalty. We designed our robot to stack very high but still have a low CG so even when another robot pushed us around with a tetra in our fork trying to cap the center goal we never tipped over. Also having defensive strategies allows for a lot of rookie and under funded teams to build a small powerful robot that can be a great help to an alliance in the elimination rounds even if they do not have the expertise to build an advanced object manipulation device.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

I agree with you that just by tipping a team over you shouldn't get penalized, but the team you were referring to continuously rammed robots all day. I wasn't surprised when they received that penalty. The first minute of the match they were hitting us and the last minute they were hitting our alliance members. I don't believe the penalty was called just for them tipping over 57, but for the hitting that occured the whole match.

1255 proved how effective a defensive robot can be. They prevented us from capping a lot of goals.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

well in any case i do hope that FIRST uses the same kit for next year since it seemed in my view as a big success you just need the right game to really benefit all the good stuff such as defensive plays and offensive plays.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

The Beach Bots would have liked to try a new, highly maneuverable drive system this year, but the wheels got held up in manufacturing. As it was, we went with a six-wheel drive system that was new for us.

At the Southern California Regional, the play became much rougher, even wild, in the elimination matches. We had a lot more ramming and tipping than in the qualification matches. In one match, another robot's arm became entangled with Beach Bot's arm. Beach Bot started dragging that other robot around the field, and the two robots had a sort of wrestling match until a minor part on Beach Bot's arm broke. Then they continued normal play.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

team 702 was there to see 330's match against 980 a few times even saw it tip once just to see it right itself up with these defensive wings and wedges it had.

the Socal Regional was very hard and proved to be drive train heavy, not just about pushing other robots around but speed to get around the field and great turning, this year (many years before in socal i hadnt seen this) due to the kit bot system every single robot turned and ran around (some stop tho due to tech problems)

in 702 scouting drive train was put first above a good arm, and the scouting predicted every match from the time we got there to the time we left, and was not wrong ever in any of them. the best and most worry some robots continued to be those with great drive trains. even the RAWC's machine ARIES 968 whose arm had not show much in the entire competetion got choosen but its drive train was awesome and it made it all the way to finals that way.

tho our team did not invest the same effort into a awesome drive system we ranked 3rd and went to Quarter finals (thanks to 599 and 1138) we ruled!!!, but i suspect that if anyone in socal woulda taken the time to make a crab bot or omni bot then we would be 4th lol :p


-Osc-

Re: Disappointing year Drive Systems --contact?
 

I am a mentor for a rookie team.

I guess my reaction is very different from those posting here. It seems most wanted more 'contact action'.

Personally I was disappointed at Purdue by all the pushing and banging. Teams were moving halfway across the field and whacking into other robots. At Western Michigan I saw a lot less, and I found it more exciting. Some wonderful robots were really exhibiting their manipulation and drive capabilities. The defense was strategic, not brutal.

Maybe it's just that I like tennis and golf and racquetball where part of the whole game is to see what both you and your opponent can do; you take turns, you applaud a great shot. You don't cough or jog his arm to screw him up.

I loved seeing the high scores. To my mind, it's a lot more challenging and elegant to maneuver and put ingenious manipulation mechanisms to work than to just plow into people and push them around. I have a feeling that's what Dean and Woody were talking about, too--why the game was devised this year to reward scoring more than suppressing others' scoring.

I guess I'm just not really normal.

Re: Disappointing year Drive Systems --contact?
 

well said~
I totally agree with you.
Physical defense and interference are two different things in my opinion. Too many robots bang and ram when all that does is take away from the game, and ruins 6 weeks of hard work to develope a robot that can achieve the tasks. Building a robot that only plays to keep others from completing the tasks when it can't itself is ridiculous.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

Well, in response to the beginning question of the thread...

It may be disappointing for many that an incredible drive train is not the absolutely Huge advantage it has been in past years. However, I think that this aspect of the game is one of the best things that FIRST has done. I think that because it is easier for rookies to put together a chassis that will work tolerably well, the game is in fact more exciting!

I think that being able to drive well still is an important advantage, but it is not essential to the game. A tolerably good drive train with a decent arm can almost always score just as many tetras as a killer drive train with the same arm. It is just not that important. But I consider this an awesome aspect of the game because it allows anyone to feel their robot is a success. Having a sweet drive train is awesome, but I don't feel that it should be the main focus of the robot.

Maybe next year a sweet drive train will give more of an advantage to teams, but for now, I think this year is a great game, especially because a complicated drive system is not as important.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

i somewhat agree. While bots did not engage in large amounts of pushing at either sacto or svr, speed was definitely important. 254 used their speed incredibly well to be able to dash over to the over side and cap a goal quickly before other bots had time to try and stop them. While custom drive systems were not as advantagious as they had been previously, a good custom drive system was still useful and effective

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

At philly, some of the robots were built for defense. like team 358 was awesome n 1402. so i thought, from our regional, that there was a fair amount of pushing n shoving when it came to tetra blocking.

n i actually wished we would have built a better drive system, but instead we had omni wheels which was really bad in terms of pushing. but if we did have a better drive system, i think we would have been more defensive

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

:cool: Our team's robot was made specifically for defense and worked great at it. It was not a rammer but more of a moving roadblock, a very fast one too. With a 2 speed transmission, 2 omni drive wheels, 4 pneumatic tires and all wheel drive i'm glad we chose a defensive strategy that can also score points by placing tetras underneath. On the plus side no penalties.

Re: Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems
 

There have been some incredible drive systems created this year. Team 190, 211, and 357 omni directional drive trains using a mechanum wheel. I believe if not all 2 of these three teams won one of the engineering awards. If you have not seen any of these three teams, what a mechanum wheel does is it is designed to slip under friction so that the robot can move laterally. However unlike an omni wheel, the mechanum wheel in fact is hard to push side to side. See the thread posted below for a picture and some better descriptions. Even though you guys may have an awesome gear box that has multiple different speeds, and can shift on the fly, it has been done before. While you guys built what sounds to be a very nice and robust drive-train, people, unfortunately, do not see the big deal in just reproducing something that has been done.

This does not mean that you have to get all discouraged about it. It just means you may have to work a little bit harder to find something new and apply it towards your goal. Trust me if you are going to Nationals, you will be able to show off the potential of your drive-train.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...=pic%3A+Jester