YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

With only 5 seconds remaining in the Championship Finals, the crowd roars as Redabot cleanly positions a red tetra on top of the center goal to complete the center triple play and move into the lead by 2 points. Since the Blualliance is not in scoring position, there seems to be no stopping Redateam from winning their first Championship. Wait, with only 2 seconds left on the clock, Bluabot bumps Redabot forcing them into the center goal stack at the end of the match. Redabot is touching the tetra that they just placed 3 seconds earlier.

Based on the 2005 Game Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

This isn't a YMTC situation. Per the definition of "STACKED", red tetra is descored, and blue wins.

"STACKED – A TETRA is STACKED when it is placed on top of a GOAL or on top of another STACKED
TETRA. To be considered STACKED, the TETRA must be properly seated on the subordinate GOAL or
TETRA such that all four apex connectors are within six inches of the SUPPORTING structure. Due to the
GOAL and TETRA geometries, a TETRA may occasionally not completely “seat” on the GOAL or
subordinate TETRA, and remain precariously positioned on top of the structure. Such TETRAS are not
considered STACKED. A TETRA is not considered STACKED if it is touching a ROBOT of the same
alliance."

Edit: Joe Ross pointed me to update 18, which Im sure will be cited shortly, but I do not think it applies in this situation, due to the fact that it deals with a situation in which red descores blue's tetras, and not their own.

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

The cause-of-the-chain-of-events clause is for safety violations only.

Wetzel

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

As long as the Blue robot did not have high contact, I don't see any reason why this defensive strategy would be bad.

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

Not sure why this one is even a question.

Cory has it right. When Redabot comes in contact with the red tetra, and maintains contact after the end of the match, the tetra no longer satisfies the definition of SCORED. Thus, it is no longer counted in the Redateam score, and Redateam loses the match and finals.

Update #18 does not apply, for two reasons. The specific question adressed in Update #18 has to do with a situation where Redabot would remove a blue tetra from a goal, which is not the situation here. Also, the update has to do with the specifics of a tetra that is removed from a stack (and therefore, the ownership of the goal may be assigned to the other alliance for the remainder of the match). This example YMTC has to do with an end-of-game contact situation, which is different.

The batter is still set, waiting for the fastball...

-dave

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

yet it is still a very crummy way to win
It's like catching a foul ball near the stands... and a fan taking it out of your glove before the out is called..ohh too bad
well it's not exactly like that.. but I can't think of a better analogy
it doesn't seem like a defensive measure but rather a .. "good job on playing the game better.. but sorry.. I'm going to work a game rule in our favor" type of thing..
blurggg

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

In order to breathe some new life into this YMTC, I'll try to throw in a knuckler.

If Bluabot knocked the red tetra off with 3 seconds, it would obviously be a scored red tetra and Redalliance's goal. An obvious violation of

Therefore, REMOVE is the key word here.

AND if Bluabot just tilted the red tetra with 3 seconds such that the tetra is not scored (not properly seated) and is still supported by the goal and lower tetras, it would probably count because Bluabot DESCORED the tetra. (I may be very wrong about this)

Since DESCORED is not in the rules, then you must rely on REMOVE from <G18> to explain why you give Redalliance credit.

NOW, WHAT IF when Bluabot hit Redabot, the top tetra fell to the ground; wouldn't you say that Bluabot's actions REMOVED the tetra, thereby making it necessary to give Redalliance credit.

SIMILARLY, since in the original YMTC, it was Bluabot's actions that DESCORED the red tetra, would you not consider this REMOVING the tetra thus resulting in the red tetra counting as a score.

I say the red tetra counts ... just because Dave said it didn't and he is probably fast asleep by now ... I hope :)

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

I don't think this changes anything. The update specifically says that blue is only considered the descorer if red is rammed, and knocks blue tetras off.

It doesn't say a single word about a cascading chain of events causing the red tetra to fall off.

Unless blue was physically touching the red tetra and knocked it off, it doesn't make a single bit of difference--red was the one that actually did knock it off.

While it may be logical to assume that this is true, the rules do not say a single word about it, and therefore we have to go by the definition of "STACKED"

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

Once again, Cory is right.

(nope, I'm not asleep!)

-dave

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

This YMTC as I understand it has nothing to do with descoring, but rather simply with contact at the end of the match - as dave mentioned.

Neither robot is descoring or unseating the recently scored red tetra, bluabot is simply pushing redabot in a position such that redabot is still in contact with the stacked tetra and it is therefore not valid for being scored.

Although this could be considered a crummy twist of the rules as a way for bluabot to win I would personally say props to the bluabot drivers and coach for quick thinking and strategy on the fly. This year's game is such that even with an unfair alliance matchup the inferior alliance still has the chance to win by carefully thought out and executed strategy. As a driver I can attest to having won matches in which we were against a much better alliance but we managed to use or resources very well and conquer anyways. This YMTC situation just shows you that bluabot's drivers were well versed in the game and the rules and were able to quickly apply their knowledge and abilities and use the rules of the game to their advantage.

I agree with Cory and Dave - redabot's tetra is not scored and bluabot wins the match.

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

Wow, Dave! I find it incredible that you’d take this position. It seems to me that, for scoring purposes, causing a robot to touch it’s own tetra and causing the tetra to be knocked off the stack is a distinction without a difference.
(Definition?) De-scored: When a tetra no longer satisfies the definition of SCORED

Which is it? Are we going to follow the spirit of the rules; or are we going to lawyer-up and pick nits?

"Bluabot bumps Redabot forcing them into the center goal stack at the end of the match." The key words here, in my opinion, are "bump" and "force". When we put them together, we find the cause. More yet, we see that the intent was to turn a ligitimate offensive win into a defensive victory with an act of agression, which is exactly what update #18 intends to discourage.

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

While I have to agree that red does not count in this situation, this does bring up some interesting scenarios. I have to agree with Jack Jones that this turns the tide back to the defensive robots.

Example. It is the end of the match and all three redabots have returned to their home zone which has three capped goals. Bluabot, realizing that they cannot make it back to the blue zone goes to the red home zone and pushes one of the redabots into their goal and against all the tetras that are scored in/on that goal.

So this now means that red has lost all the points from that goal and lost the triple play. A mimimum 13 point swing.

Is this the intent?

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

At any rate, I think it's more "lawyeristic" to claim that red should get the win. Reading the rules--as written--leaves no doubt that Team Update 18 does not apply to this situation. When you start to make inferences from it, such as that since they were talking about a similar action, and red should be the winner, you've just changed the rules.

Also, what I really think it boils down to is this is a part of the game challenge. You don't build a robot with a high cg if you don't want to tip. If you don't want to be pushed, you should make a stronger drivetrain. FIRST said there are elements that are part of the game challenge. I would define this as one of them.

$0.02

Re: YMTC: Bluabot "Descores" Red Tetra
 

At this point, I think that I am just going to have to adopt Cory (hey Sean! you have a new brother! :) ). He obviously "gets it." Listen to him, he is a wise person (at least this week).

-dave

p.s. Cory, now that you are a member of the family, I need to fill you in on a few family rules. #1: the typical allowance structure you may be used to is different for us. Allowance is limited to $20 per week - but you pay me, not the other way around. #2: Krispy Kremes for breakfast are OK, as long as you leave some for me. #3: Taking the last Krispy Kreme will result in a punishment of double allowance for that week. #4: You can work off your allowance by mowing the lawn, as long as you do not drive through the neighbors fence on the lawn mower. #5: When arguing over who gets to use the computer, Dad's game of Railroad Tycoon III takes precedence over anyone else's game of Warcraft at all times.

Welcome to the neighbourhood.
 

Cory, when you get out here I can show you around the area. :)

Wetzel