YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

Bluabot finished the Magnolia Regional with a blue banner hanging from its end effector and a badly mangled arm. "We are going to Atlanta ... we are going to Atlanta ... WE ARE GOING TO ATLANTA!" was the chant coming from Bluateam's pit. Also coming from their pit was a whisper of, "What are we going to do about the arm?" Bluateam decided and proceeded to remove Bluabot's arm and load the 19 lb. injured arm on the bus. During the Fix-It-Window, Bluateam repaired Bluabot's arm and the, now 18 lb. arm, was better and stronger than ever. On Thursday of Championships, the armless Bluabot gladly welcomed the refurbished arm. Bluateam was so relieved, "Now we have a chance to win the Championships!"

Based on the 2005 Robot Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

This should be a no brainer:

So, unless I'm missing the point, there is no problem.

EDIT: OK, now I see that there may be an issue with what teams are allowed to do with "broken or malfunctioning COMPONENTS" that they took home from the last regional. However, to argue that they must manufacture an upgraded arm rather than upgrading the old one would be just plain silly.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

Assuming the arm is considered a "mechanism" consisting of "parts", accodring to R15, you can make upgrade "parts" during the fix-it window after the last regional before the championship event. The upgraded "parts" when assembled into the arm "mechanism" made it lighter and stronger. Even though the second half of R15 doesn't explicitly say you can use the upgraded parts to fix the mechanism, I just think it doesn't because it was a cut and paste from the rule for the fix-it-window after any regional and they added the upgraded parts part before it for the championship event.

This is legal.

R15: During the “FIX-IT WINDOW” following the last Regional Event a team attends (i.e. prior to attending
the FIRST Championship): Teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS
for their robot at their home facility (not at the competition site). At the conclusion of a regional
competition event, teams may take a limited amount of broken or malfunctioning COMPONENTS or
MECHANISMS back to their home facility to make SPARE or REPLACEMENT PARTS. Teams may
manufacture and/or repair all the parts they want, but the amount of parts they can bring to the
competition event is limited (as specified in Rule <R24>).

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

It is legal, at least I think it is.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

It seems legal, though...that makes me wonder why you'd be posting it. ;)

[Edit: I also wonder why some people said illegal and haven't posted. Are we missing something obvious?]

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

I think this is legal as long as they bring the arm back in individual pieces and re-assemble it on Thursday.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

Sneaking one in there aren't you? You say that the team is repairing the arm but it comes out stronger and better and one pound lighter. That is no longer a repair but a modification/redesign. The rule is pretty clear and has been discussed before. (Please note the repeating reference to "parts" in several places in the rule that follows.)

"Teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS for their robot at their home facility (not at the competition site). At the conclusion of a regional competition event, teams may take a limited amount of broken or malfunctioning COMPONENTS or MECHANISMS back to their home facility to make SPARE or REPLACEMENT PARTS. Teams may manufacture and/or repair all the parts they want, but the amount of parts they can bring to the competition event is limited (as specified in Rule <R24>)."

As I read that, a functioning 18 pound redesigned/remanufactured arm cannot be brought to competition. Eighteen pounds of arm parts can be brought and assembled into an arm at the competition.
I personally will be walking around the pits, with a 25 pound balance scale and a blindfold to check anyone who brings in "parts". ( note the reference to "Blind Justice"?)

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

Seems to me like the arm would qualifiy as a "MECHANISM". I know that it's often dangerous to use common sense in a YMTC thread, but I'd say sure they can take it with them.

- they built the arm during the build and the FIW
- it weighs less than 25 pounds
- this year's rules have made no line between components and assemblies as far as bringing parts to the competition is concerned.

I have to say, I'm not sure why this is even a question...

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

That is what makes it illegal. You are allowed to manufacture parts but the rule states " to make SPARE or REPLACEMENT PARTS. Teams may
manufacture and/or repair all the parts they want, but the amount of parts they can bring to the
competition event is limited (as specified in Rule <R24>"

The reason you take it home is not to rebuild the arm but so that you can make proper parts that you can then bring to the event and put back on your robot.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

Yes, but what is a replacement part?

This is where I'd have to look at the arm myself. If it's the same arm, but a different material (which could very well change the weight), then it fits the definition of a replacement part. If they noticeably changed it and there's some new doo-dad on the end, then it's not a replacement part, and it's time for a do-over.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

I think the rule pretty clearly says this is legal. Remember that a PART can be both a COMPONENT and a MECHANISM. The arm is a MECHANISM. It can be repaired or upgraded. The arm is still going to provide the same functionality, namely picking up and stacking tetras. It does not matter whether it has a new doo-dad at the end. Parts may be upgraded. As long as they have 25 lbs or less of total manufactured parts, they are legal. They don't have to disassemble their arm.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

Since this is a hypothetical case, I guess it is OK to read into the description. I agree that an identical part made out of different material is OK under the component definitions in Sec 5.2...
"• Example 1: A lever arm made of lexan on your robot breaks. You manufacture a REPLACEMENT PART made of aluminum plate, using the design drawings of the original. As the new part provides the same function as the broken part, the new part is a valid REPLACEMENT PART."
I made the assumption that an arm that was suddenly lighter and stronger was a redesign not merely new material. Now granted, a team that makes a modified part at competition, no matter how awful can, in the fixit window, remake the part correctly in their shop. Theoretically, that team could manufacture an arm out of cardboard anytime before close of pits on Saturday, and remake the part out of titanium in the fixit window and still be legal, right? It is functionally identical to a part legally made during competition but is now an upgrade part since it is a new and better material. This is one of those rules that suffers from lack of knowledge of intent. What were the rules makers intending when this rule was written?

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

I think you'd have a rough time arguing that a cardboard arm is functionally equivalent to a titanium one.... The original part has to be functional in the first place. At any rate, I'm interested in the direction this YMTC goes, as it's not a hypothetical for our team. We're in pretty much this exact situation, as we had to bring our arm home to make some fixes in the FIW and made a slight upgrade in the process. I will be dismayed if we have to disassemble and downgrade to our original system.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

I wouldn't think that you would have to disassemble and downgrade to the original system. Just disassemble and reassemble in the pits. The parts that go into the mechanism total up to less than 25 pounds. Just put it together on Thursday. Thus is my humble opinion.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

I agree. The key word is UPGRADE. Blueateam has made improvements to their arm and developed an UPGRADE that works better, yet it is still under the 25 lbs.

Let 'em in.

Andy B.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

The rule makers were intending to start drinking heavily because they knew that no matter how hard they worked at it, for no matter how long, it would not be enough. They knew that the 400+ hours that each of them put in to the effort to develop the game and write the rules would never stand up to the approximately 4 million brain-hours of thought that would be applied to analyzing the rules, game and robot designs this year. They knew that Lucien would find some little hole that had not been filled to everyone's satisfaction, and a YMTC thread would pop up to discuss it. They knew that the stated desires from the teams to have simplified, short, concise rules were in direct conflict with the stated desires from the team to have complete, unambiguous, fully explanatory rules that leave no room for interpretation, and that there was no way to satisfy both. They knew that with the FIRST policy of creating a brand new game every year to challenge the teams that they would never be able to run through enough simulations of the game to completely understand how it was going to play out before it was released to the teams. They knew that the 400+ hours each was nowhere near enough to wring out all the nuances and subtleties and hidden "gotchas" that would be lurking about.

But they also knew that the nearly 1000 teams out there would take the problem (and the description of the problem - the rules) that they were given and run with it. And they knew the teams would come up with extremely creative ways to solve the problem, and play the game. And they knew that despite some occasional confusion over a rule that, in retrospect, might not be as clear as possible, or have an unintended consequence, that everyone would approach the whole affair with a positive attitude and genuine desire to make the most of the whole experience. And they knew that everyone recognized that the game is just that - a game. They knew the teams understood that at the end of the day what happened on the playing field during the competition season wasn't nearly as important as what happened back in the shop during the build season. They knew that the number of gracious, professional, make-your-grandmother-so-proud-she-will-puke moments of exemplary behavior by the teams would far outshine any minor mistakes or incidents of less-than-perfect decorum. And so far, they have been enormously grateful to see that the teams "get it" and are having fun and enjoying the season. Because that is what they intended. ;)

-dave

p.s. Blueateam is legal. Take your less-than-25-pound upgraded part and go compete!

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

Amen to what Dave said! And kudos to the creators for the 400+ hours of work that went into creating what has been another interesting and fun game.

Re: YMTC: GOODNIGHT YMTC
 

Say "Goodnight," YMTC. "Goodnight YMTC."

I sincerely apologize to those that I have offended at FIRST or in the FIRST community with YMTC. It was certainly not my intent to demean or negate the enormous effort of the folks that create the game ... they do a marvelous job!

When YMTC was implemented on CD, it was simply meant to be a "table" where folks could sit around and talk about how the rules apply to different situations. Mainly, as I've said before, YMTC's goal was for rules awareness.

The YMTC idea is not new to sports. Some of my most memorable moments as a kid were finishing 18 or 36 holes of golf and then sitting around a table with my buddies trying to stump one another about the Rules-of-Golf and then taking out our rule books and finding the rule that addressed the situation. "Can you mark and pick-up a ball that is touching the green and fringe at the same time?" "While under a tree, can you break a twig with your practice swing without incurring a penalty?" "After wiggling your feet in the sand to secure your stance, can you move your feet on top of the sand or is it considered 'building a stance'?" These discussions made us very knowledgeable about the Rules-of-Golf and saved us stroke after stroke when we played. I never thought that if the USGA officials were listening, they may take offense to our discussion of "their" rules. Moreover, if some of the guys did not want to talk about the Rules-of-Golf, they either went to the driving range or putted some. After our discussion and a hamburger, we went out for 36 more holes ... those were the days :)

I guess that I always hoped that YMTC's warm greeting,
You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.
would encourage folks not to take the YMTC discussions too seriously.

It's funny, because this very YMTC and the last YMTC to be written by myself, was created simply as a rules awareness because I could not think up any rules with "holes" in them. Finally, thanks for all of the support for the YMTC ... it has been a lot of fun.

Again, I am sorry for those that I offended and GOODNIGHT YMTC,
Lucien

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

Calm down Lucien. The post above was not meant as a kvetch about YMTC or a desire to make these threads go away. The reference to YMTC was included simply because this is an YMTC thread. My post is a simple public acknowledgement that the effort that goes INTO creating the rules and game each year is about 0.1% of the effort that the teams expend TAKING APART and analyzing the game and rules each year. With such an imbalance, the teams will ALWAYS find things that the designers did not consider/cover/address during the development process. The fact that these thing occur is not because the game designers are trying to make the lives of all the teams as difficult as possible, it is simply the result of an honest effort applied to an imperfect process constrained by an unrealistic schedule.

The group that designs the game each year understands that going in to the process. The vast majority of teams understand it as well. All that is being asked of the community of FIRST teams is that point be remembered when they start to dissect the game and rules at the beginning of each season. Participating in a YMTC thread will comments like "if Bluabot just tilted the red tetra with 3 seconds such that the tetra is not scored and is still supported by the goal and lower tetras, it would probably count because Bluabot DESCORED the tetra (I may be very wrong about this)" is great. This is a statement that makes a point, while conceding that there is an alternate point of view, and remaining respectful of both the author's and opposing opinions. Conversely, snide comments like "three words come to mind that explain this mess: 'Design by Committee'" and "reading the rules as written this year is often an exercise in futility" do nothing to contribute to the discussions and just serve to tick people off. YMTC threads with debate like the first example are fun, educational, and a great way to fill the time in between competitions. Threads full of comments like the latter examples make many of us realize there are other ways to spend our time, and we head back to the technical forums...

-dave

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

These YMTC threads can and do serve a good purpose. This one in particular serves well, because I think a lot of people weren't aware that a PART can be a MECHANISM. Thus an arm can be a part.

(My team for example, was in almost this exact situation. The end peice of our grabber was mangled pretty completely in our last elmination match. We brought the end of our arm home with us in order to fix it. In the process we upgraded it to expand more to make it harder for a tetra to slip. The peice of our arm we have is now about 7 lbs.)

The discussion of the rules can be really productive. I have read a couple of YMTC threads which made me see things from a different perspective. All we need is for all of us to remember to be gracious. Snide comments can tick someone else off. The most persuasive arguments are the ones which are polite, respectful and powered by well-supported reasoning. We would all do well to remember that a group of dedicated people put in a lot of time to create a really cool game for the rest of us to play.

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

I have not read anywhere in the rules that a mechanism can be a part. Many parts make up a mechanism. If it were the intent of the game committee to allow mechanisms to be rebuilt or made or upgraded, why did they not use the words mechanism or assembly. FIRST has asked us to be less lawyers yet when they say something day one and then change the words and meaning 10 weeks later it makes me wonder why we listen in the first place. This is not the time or place to continue this type of discussion though.

I personally like YMTC because I get to debate. I love the challenge of presenting the other side of the discussion. I love the fact that it makes me think which is something I don't always do (check some of my posts). Please continue with YMTC. I know that Dave loves to be challenged also. ;)

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

Steve I won't argue with you about the English semantics, because I think your reading of the "true" meaning of parts and mechanism is correct, and they seem a little turned around in the rules book. A mechanism is made of parts.

I do think this is one reason that the YMTC thread are valuable. As Dave pointed out, there is no way to write game rules in the time frame allowed that will survive first contact with thousands of FIRSTers without having to be clarified and modified.


In section 5.2 they define: COMPONENT, MECHANISM, FABRICATED ITEM and SPARE/REPLACEMENT/UPGRADE PARTS. I am not sure what the distinction is between MECHANISM and FABIRCATED ITEM according to these rules (and I think I should have been using FABRICATED ITEM instead of MECHANISM in my posts) but here are the definitions.

<5.2>
A COMPONENT is either a COTS or a piece of stock material cut/finished to its final dimensions. COMPONENTS are things which can't be disassembled without destroying them or altering their fundamental function.

A MECHANISM is either a COTS or an assembled collection of COMPONENTS which provides some specific functionality. A MECHANISM can be disassembled into COMPONENTS.

A FABRICATED ITEM is either a COTS or a MECHANISM which has been "altered, built, cast, constructted, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, surface coated, or conjured in the final form in which it will be used on the robot." (Again, I am not sure how to make a distinction between a MECHANISM and a FABRICATED ITEM except maybe that this implies you might not be able to disassemble a FABRICATED ITEM???)

SPARE/REPLACEMENT/UPGRADE PARTS can be either COTS or FABRICATED ITEMS. So again I think it is clear that as long as Bluateam's refurbished arm (a FABRICATED ITEM), plus all of the other PARTS they bring, are 25 lbs or less, they are legal.

From my reading of the spirit of the rules (as well as the letter), it seems clear that the intent was that teams could take something like a broken arm home and fix it/upgrade it, as long as it was a relatively small part of the robot.

And while we're at it, thanks for the good discussion.

Greg

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

OK, a quick sidebar discussion for a moment. I have seen lots of fabricated items on robots this season that have been altered, built, cast, constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted, produced, and/or surface coated. But has anyone actually been able to conjure up a part for their robot? If you have, can we borrow your wizard? :)

-dave

Re: YMTC: Bluateam Refurbishes Bluabot's Mangled Arm
 

So now I am thinking someone should try to get Penn and Teller to sponsor their team? (Since Gandalf is retired now.)