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-   -   Running Out of Tetras (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37566)

Cory 25-04-2005 01:23
Re: Running Out of Tetras
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCA Fan
I worked the autoloader on Einstein. We were told to have 9 tetras for each loader and we had a backup pile of 4 if we needed them. We never actually ran out, so I didn't see that it was much of a problem, but there have always been a limited number of tetras on the field.
You should not have a "backup pile"

There is a finite number of tetras on the field. Adding 4 more goes over that number.

Wetzel 25-04-2005 01:35
Red Alliance Autoloader Was Under Control
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
You should not have a "backup pile"

There is a finite number of tetras on the field. Adding 4 more goes over that number.
Sometimes, the tetras would not seat properly on the loader. The clovers would twist, causing the tetra not to sit flat. This was usually rectified by rotating the tetra to another side. It also happened that a tetra would break when stacked, and would be broken when picked up.


Wetzel

Cory 25-04-2005 01:51
Re: Red Alliance Autoloader Was Under Control
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetzel
Sometimes, the tetras would not seat properly on the loader. The clovers would twist, causing the tetra not to sit flat. This was usually rectified by rotating the tetra to another side. It also happened that a tetra would break when stacked, and would be broken when picked up.


Wetzel
If I understand you correctly, you're talking about a pile of tetras off to the side that the field reset staff can withdraw from when one breaks on the field, AFTER a match.

What I interpreted him as saying is that if they load all 9 tetras onto the field (There should be 8, and one on the autoloader, at any rate) they can then withdraw from the 4 in the backup pile and introduce those into the field also, which should NOT happen.

DCA Fan 25-04-2005 02:48
Re: Red Alliance Autoloader Was Under Control
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
If I understand you correctly, you're talking about a pile of tetras off to the side that the field reset staff can withdraw from when one breaks on the field, AFTER a match.

What I interpreted him as saying is that if they load all 9 tetras onto the field (There should be 8, and one on the autoloader, at any rate) they can then withdraw from the 4 in the backup pile and introduce those into the field also, which should NOT happen.
Oops sorry, didn't mean to confuse people...I meant to say we had the 9 per loader and the 4 in case one breaks, those wouldn't get introduced during the match

the_short1 25-04-2005 12:06
Re: Running Out of Tetras
 
yea i was going to comment on that as i watched in a few matches where the tetras had almost ran out (1-2) left.. whoa you guys ! can you say StackMasters? .. you guys stacked so many tetras .. it was amazing.. to all of you who made the stack go that low, congrats!

Paul Copioli 25-04-2005 12:24
Re: Running Out of Tetras
 
We never really ran out of tetras on the autoloader side, but that is not the point. It did get to a point that there were no tetras in the piles and one on each loader, though.

what matters in all of this is a last minute rule change (or rule interpretation) that was explained to us that the auto loaders would not be "leveled" like was clearly described in update #2 that the field staff will make reasonable attempts to make sure no area is depleted. I was told after semi #1 on Einstein that the ruling on Einstein was no replacements. It seems like on the fly changes ran pretty rampant this year.

One last thing, this situation had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the Final Four match between 245, 217, 766 and 330, 67, and 503. Those three matches were the most exciting I have ever been a part of in all of my years of FIRST. The last second move by 503 was analogous to a 3 point hail mary toss in basketball ... simply amazing!

Paul

Chris Fultz 25-04-2005 12:31
Re: Running Out of Tetras
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik
There's always been a limited number of tetras, though. This has been defined since day one, and hasn't changed. It's the same every year. The only real issue is that tetras were being shuffled and then suddenly weren't.
I disagreee. During the kick-off, it was stated very clearly that there was effectivly an 'unlimited number of tetras' and they would move them to keep up with the robots.

IF there was a limited number, that would have brought more defense into the game, and the focus was clearly on offense.

Kevin Sevcik 25-04-2005 12:47
Re: Running Out of Tetras
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Fultz
I disagreee. During the kick-off, it was stated very clearly that there was effectivly an 'unlimited number of tetras' and they would move them to keep up with the robots.

IF there was a limited number, that would have brought more defense into the game, and the focus was clearly on offense.
Limited as in a limited number of total tetras that could ever possibly be put into play assuming you had the mythical alliance of three 71 bots playing against air, or what have you. The total came out to 41 tetras, which is a heck of a lot. It's unlikely an alliance would run completely out of tetras, but it's apparently possible to nearly run out of tetras in a particular area in a match with several highly skilled teams. The confusing thing is just the last minute rule change. As Paul said, it had little or no effect on the outcome. Since the tetras never ran out, the only possible effect could be the drivers worrying about it in the back of their minds, and I'm sure they were far too busy to do that.

AmyPrib 25-04-2005 14:07
Re: Running Out of Tetras
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by psquared89

He left, the referees conferred, and he returned to say that they would not move tetras. He said told us that he spoke with the head of all head referees and that it was decreed that tetras would not be moved.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me why, when, and / or how the rule involving not moving tetras came into place?
Well, it's very fortunate that it sounds like teams didn't run into problems with having no tetras to autoload, but unfortunate that the decision didn't follow clear rules stated early on. Update 2 clearly states that the crew should make reasonable attempts to refill depleted stations, which I think was a result from a few Q/As addressing this exact situation.

I wonder why, if the refs had access to all the rules and updates as they should, would make a decision that could have potentially been a problem for some teams. We were counting 19+ tetras for each alliance in those finals, and if they had been all autoloaders, could have been a big issue. I don't think there's any reason a field volunteer couldn't have run a small stack of tetras over to the autoload side if depleted.

Oh well - lessons learned to improve for next year. Those final alliances were tough, and provided truly amazing finals rounds.

Jeremy.245 26-04-2005 07:13
Re: Running Out of Tetras
 
i do belive that FIRST said all rule changes would be made 42 hours before the start of the match they were implemented in....Please correct em if im wrong

Carter 26-04-2005 14:57
Re: Running Out of Tetras
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by psquared89
Before anything, I would like to congratulate teams 330, 67, and 503, they played well and beat us fair and square.

However, after our first match with them, an Innovation First guy came by (I honestly don't know who) and told me (I was wearing the bib) that they would not move tetras from the human load over to the auto load if it ran out. Distressed by this, I went to our head referee and asked him if this was true, didn't the rules say that they would move tetras? He left, the referees conferred, and he returned to say that they would not move tetras. He said told us that he spoke with the head of all head referees and that it was decreed that tetras would not be moved.

So we played our second match, and lost 60-63. We had no rows while blue had two rows. The Autoloader had one tetra left. At the end of our third match, the Autoloader had zero tetras left. The last tetra was picked up by the Chickens at around the 10 second mark. I honestly do not believe that our team could have grabbed another tetra and capped it on the needed goal in the last 8 or so seconds when we made it back to the autoloader, however, I was wondering if anyone could tell me why, when, and / or how the rule involving not moving tetras came into place?

Once again, this is not meant to be begrudging at all, we were beaten, and beaten by a strong, quality alliance, congratulations to you, all of you. Congratulations really to everyone who put a robot on the field and made it move, that, in and of itself, is and accomplishment.
hey , im one of the kids who scouts the finals for my team and tells the drivers the other teams game plan is. i was trying to find out what your alliance game plan was but i couldnt get it til i was looking at it from above, after you had beat us.lol really late i know but very good idea i like.

MFS766 27-04-2005 01:34
Re: Red Alliance Autoloader Was Under Control
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCA Fan
Oops sorry, didn't mean to confuse people...I meant to say we had the 9 per loader and the 4 in case one breaks, those wouldn't get introduced during the match

In the last semifinal match, i counted 19 tetras capped by our alliance. Subtract 5 from our robot, which used human loader, 14 tetras were picked up by 245 and 217 from the auto loader. Plus, i think 245 dropped two. So there was suppose to be two left.

I talked earlier to one of 245's team member about how they could have added more motors to their arm. We would then probably have ran out of tetras. I saw several robots that used the auto loader and could have capped over 9 a match using our alliances strategy. In the future, First needs less rules and more physicals restraints such as a finite number of tetras and a enclosed arena to protect officials, operators and teams (less safety penalties for refs to worry about).

Thanks 245 and 217 for being such great partners. You guys made our wildest dreams come true. Thanks to all FIRST officials for running a very complex event. Congratulations to 330, 67, and 503, it was a honor to have three well fought matches with you guys.

Godzilla! 27-04-2005 09:27
Re: Running Out of Tetras
 
The Tetra rebalancement question/concern was brought up to the "Head Ref" on Einstein and he stated that he did not allow this on his field for the divisional (Galileo) and would not allow it during the championships. Since the Head Referee's ruling is final we conveyed this to the team and operated accordingly. I know that on Curie the tetra's were balanced when some stations became low as per the update but given the amount of rules and updates this may have been forgotten (Ref's are human and do make mistakes) but the field was ran consistent with how the Head Ref wanted it.

the_short1 27-04-2005 12:45
Re: Running Out of Tetras
 
yes.. i think a safety sheild would be a good idea.. since i saw SOO many refs almost get clocked in the head with a tetra or arm. . its scarry.. and it would HURt


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