Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

Thank you!! I can't believe I forgot the drivers' meeting. What a frustrating meeting. I commend their desire to get everyone on the same page, but that should have been taken care of well in advance of the nationals. The last-minute scheduling, as you pointed out, was just unacceptable. Teams, especially large teams from out of town, have to do a lot of preplanning to make these trips come off right. Our drivers missed a team dinner to be in attendance, and we walked away more confused and frustrated by the new interpretations introduced during that meeting. To make matters worse, the calls were no more consistent after the meeting. The problem wasn't the absence of communication, the problem was too many penalties with too much room for judgment.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

Perhaps some of the younger teams have not yet recognized the importance of applauding others achievements. It's called GP. It's called, not being a sore loser. It's called, being proud of other teams when they succeed. With your role titled "Leadership", you might consider instilling this type of behavior within your team. Personally, I was appauled at the lack of applause from the balcony section, let alone standing O's. It borders on showing disrespect for others accomplishments. It shows that they don't care others do well. If you were concerned about not seeing the 2 representatives receiving their awards, perhaps you could stand up and cheer for them, as we only stood for maybe 20-30s each award. Team 45 has the utmost respect and consideration for other teams and I don't see how this could even be turned into something negative.

The TechnoKats are not going to refrain from applauding others when they do well, or standing up to do it. The teams that win these awards deserve a standing O. How would you feel if nobody stood up or applauded when you received an award? I have noticed that if the veteran teams don't do this, the arena will be silent. There are some younger teams that do it, but I see many younger teams sitting in their chairs with their hands at their sides. That's sad. There were 3-5 teams from the whole balcony we saw stand up to applaud - the rest only stood up for the wave.

If you think that repetitive standing O's and applause become devoid of meaning, you are sorely mistaken. Sure, maybe there are some people even on the TechnoKats that haven't figured out why we do it.... but they will. They are not "required" to stand up. We encourage it. We do it because we are truly proud of those successful teams and try to encourage other teams to show their support also.

If anything, the Lessons Learned Negative here is that many teams don't show their support for others successes, and that is the negative.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

Having discussed this with her, let me try to clarify Ally's post: She is not opposed to teams showing their appreciation for other's success. What she, and I, think is inappropriate is for team members to be required to give a standing ovation for every award.

A student on team 45 told Ally precisely this at the competition when she asked why they keep standing ("we get yelled at for being rude"). Now two members of 45 have disputed this claim in this thread, and that's all anyone needed to say about this.

If someone would like to argue that it is appropriate for teams to be required to show some insincere appreciation, that is another matter.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

Thats not always the case. I remember one finals match where one team got a 30 pointer and still won by 10...

The only thing I didn't like this year was the lack of calls on ramming/pinning. Not once did I see a 10 pointer thrown for ramming, nor did I ever see an acurate count on pinning. Those are my 2 major driver pet-peeves...

Other than that, I love this years compitition!

btw, Sir Charles rules! :D

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

I think it's completely wrong of you to make an assumption that because a referee is under a certain age they lack the competency to understand the rules and officiate. How does someone "Look like a veteran"? I've been in FIRST 5 years and I'm almost 19. I can pickup some random 50 year old dude off the streets, who's never seen FIRST, and because he's 50, and I'm 19, you assume he understands the rules better, and is more competent?

Please think before you speak.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

I agree that it was very difficult to scout when teams in front of you were standing up and blocking the view of the field. At times my scouts and I would have to skip entire matches because of this.

But instead of having teams stop standing up and cheering, how about they move to an area where they know no scouts are? Or going further back in the stands to cheer. Or having sections designated for scouts only? I think that's the best idea.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

that was not the point of my argument. read it again.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

Possibly coming soon to a regional near you. If you live near Houston, anyways. We're looking at options to make something like this happen at LSR next year.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

I did indeed read your post. You complained that you could not see because the team in front of you was standing and cheering.

What am I missing? :confused:

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

Several people politely asked them to sit down but they replied that they would "get yelled out for being rude". I agree that applauding another team's achievements is polite and courteous, however, a repetitive and forced standing ovation becomes increasingly meaningless the more frequently it occurs. Soon it becomes a mere mechanical motion, completely devoid of meaning.

My point is that enthusiastic appreciation for other teams is wonderful but insincere expression is not. (hence the thing about repetition, forced, meaningless mechanical motion) I under the impression that members of one team was required to give every other team a standing ovation. I hope when other teams applaud for my team, they do it because we have earned it and not because someone else is telling them to do it.
You can also read MaxLobovsky post for further clarification.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

I'm merely pointing out the fact that a predominantly large portion of ref's at GTAR and the majority of Canadian events are Woburn 188 Alumni (established in FIRST in 1998 and Canada FIRST 3 years prior) and as such they are all incredibly well versed in how exacting a toll penalties can take on every team, indeed, we have been the victim of a few bad calls and benefited from a few bad calls ourselves. Age shouldnt really and doesnt really determine how people call games. That being said however, I agree with Slimbo's point (not just because he is on my team ;)) that perhaps a committee of ref's could be established per region of competition that would travel to each respective competition and serve as a referee adivsor, or something of that nature.

Other than that, this has been a fantastic final season.

For all of you guys complaining about turnaround in Championships, ask anyone who attended the Waterloo regional. We had maybe 40-50 minutes at most between matches, usually it was closer to 20-30.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

Fighting with other teams over cheering for other teams during an awards ceremony is a sad precedence. This has been a rough year for GP in FIRST.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

there was no fighting but merely a discussion that emerged from the inability to see the field. Just because i choose to address an issue that was bothering me does not mean i was not being a gracious professional. I chose to confront the issue politely and sensitively instead of throwing around hurtful words. Please don't assume. If I have unintentionally offended anyone with my choice of words, i apologize.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

It's not just you and your team. There's been alot of anger on these pages this year (and I'm just as guilty as the next guy). I don't know what it is but I have never seen Cheifdelphi have so many arguements and confrontations. The fact that this thread is five times the size of the positive thread proves that. Hopefully cooler heads will ease up the tension in the offseason.

Re: Lessons learned 2005: The negative
 

This is only the second half of your post. But either way, if one of our students told you they were required to stand, then they have it wrong and obviously don't understand yet why we cheer others on. I'm not convinced it would have made much difference at the time if those few had remained seated, because the other 95% of us were standing on our own free will. The most we do to "require" them to stand is make a hand motion implying "come on, stand up and cheer", but have never yelled at, or punished someone for not doing so.. That would be silly.

Either way, it shows support from a team, regardless if they were less than willing to show it. People don't always do things because they like it, but they do it anyways...for whatever reason. And while I can honestly understand your point of view, I'd personally rather have my teammate standing and applauding less willingly (not forced), than sitting on their hands and ignoring the awards looking like a bored, unhappy, sore loser, even if they are. Negativity clearly shows more in one situation over the other and we don't want a less than positive team. We try to teach them GP, and standing to applaud is one small way we do it.
That is all on this... I think we can put it to rest now that everyone is understood.

Maybe it's because negative things are easier to argue than positive things.. :) Now that we've been able to explain our thoughts, I promise I will post no more in this thread, as I don't have any negative things left to say regarding this thread. I apologize for the space the discussion has taken already but hopefully others can learn something from it :D