Shafted again
 

Once again FIRSt has shown their disdain for the animation competition. Only this time they have decided to lump in the website, Autodesk Inventor and (amazingly) the Woodie Flowers Award into the same trash heap and banish it to the Friday opening ceremony. I guess it's not worthy for prime time.
Animators, website designers and cad designers (and Woodie Flowers nominies) work just as hard as any person who has worked on the robot and do not deserve the insult FIRST has put forward to them. This is an outrage and FIRST owes every single animator, website designer, CAD designer a written apology!!!

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I was not at the Championships this year, but I created most of the 2003 and 2004 Autodesk Inventor Awards.

I know that the Closing Ceremonies are always long and carried on forever.
I would prefer that FIRST split up the awards.

I do not know what awards were given precedence over these so called "overlooked" awards, but I am sure they are all just as important as the others.

These Technology/Computer awards may not have as much publicity as the others, but they still are awards.

These awards can be compared to publicity situation:

Which do you think get more publicity the drivers or the rest of the team in the stands?

Insult? explanation?

Also most of the Saturday Closing Ceremony Awards are only decided at the last minute.

Many of the Friday Closing Ceremony Awards are decided ahead of time or easier to choose the winners.

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Well, to put it simply, the animations & animators get very little (if any) mention anywhere, anytime. This recent series of events was the icing on the cake. Essentially animations have always been on the sidelines, mumbled about, and the awards seem to be nothing more than a formality. This view is further solidified by their slumping of the AVA/ AIA presentations at the opening ceremony. FIRST's attitude seems to be "Oh yeah... there's an animation thing over here that some people did ...umm. Who cares, lets move on to the robots." Granted the Focus of FIRST should be robots, not the AVA. However, if the animation is a part of FIRST, why not give the animations the same respect that one does each team's robot? This mindset is heartbreaking to animators and destructive everyone. Walking around at any competition, the only people who seem to care about the AVA are the animators themselves. I think this attitude would change if animators were given a little more notice. So in short, yes, I too believe 'the AVA' to be a long history of neglect and insult.

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Let's be realistic here. The "Show" went on all too long as it was. Saturday night was long and we did not even get to present the teams that won our division their medals. They were told to send someone down to pick them up.

By putting the Woodie Flowers award on Friday shows that they believe that all of the other awards are just as important as the WF one. Maybe I am wrong but show me a WF winner that is not a well respected part of FIRST and deserving of recognition. Let's give FIRST a break. They are trying to do the best they can and most of these awards given on Friday were prejudged and ready to go. I have issues with FIRST from time to time but I am positive that there was no reasoning behind the timing of these awards presentations.

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when this is addressed it always seems to be that "this is autodesks compitition not firsts" so they really appear that it shouldnt hold anywhere near the esteem that FRC holds. it is dissappointed but i think we can change this. groups of ppl hold a lot more influence then a lot of people by themselves. this is why i have suggested forming an animators union. c the post about it if interested or if u have suggestions.

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Those are some pretty harsh words; it surprises me (and makes me a little sad) to see this post coming from you, Ed.

Thursday, Friday, Saturday ... whenever; Animimators/web designers/CAD people are recognized for their work. There are plenty of aspects of FIRST that are recognized solely by a round of applause, if that. You don't see FIRST giving awards for the "best team travel coordinator", "best public relations crew", or "best parent organization" but without the people involved in this part of FIRST, most teams would not exist. Yet these people keep doing what they're doing without being recognized.

Be gracious; at least there is an animation competition.

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I don't think I was out of line at all.
The animation aspect has always been an afterthought and it always will be. They don't even show them on the screens anymore at the fields.
I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

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I was really glad that they announced the Inventor Award during Friday morning's ceremony. What better way to start off the competition, than with a big win? Plus, the Saturday awards were jammed in between matches which seemed to diminished their significance.

Where I thought FIRST really blew it was in not announcing the scholarship receipients. What was up with that? I fail to believe that giving an invited speaker opportunity to talk is more important than recognizing the students who, through great effort, earned the scholarships that FIRST is so proud to talk about.

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I am our team's only AIA person. In addition, I was the person who nominated LeRoy Nelson, the winner of the SoCal WFFA.

FIRST does not owe me an apology. Since the awards run so long (one member of our team fell asleep) and these awards are all judged beforehand, I feel that this was a good decision.
Not really. Which award has the most precedence? Which one was given last? Which one involved the indoor polytechnics (which were really cool)? Which one has the most impact on the community; the country; the world? That is where the true focus lies.

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I dont know that I would consider these awardees "shafted." I think the ceremony that the did was really nice, and it wasnt split up at all like the later ones. They showed the animations and inventor winners submissions(which is an improvement over the past/some regionals) and I think they gave a lot of credit to the awardees.

Plus, if you look at it, these are the awards that are decided well ahead of time. The judges dont have to go and interview the teams, they already have the materials before the competition. FIRST knows that all teams will be there friday morning, because they dont know when their qualification matches are until that morning. If they did it friday evening, half the teams would be gone, same with saturday morning.

The only thing I would suggest for improvement is to make it clear that these awards are going to be given then. It may have been mentioned somewhere, but our team missed what was going on. We made it for what we expected to be opening ceremonies, only to realize that awards were going on.

So sit back, relax and enjoy the awards :) An award is a huge accomplishment, no matter when it is given. Heck I would take ours even if they were going to give it to us at our pit with no one else watching! Its that you know that you accomplished that much, not that a million people got to see it while exhausted and sleeping through half of it.

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Ed, I appreciate your comments. You present your opinions honestly and forthrightly. In this case, however, my view is that you over reacted. I do not believe that anyone with FIRST meant to slight any area of effort or expertise, but rather, presented first those awards that already had been decided, so that the second awards ceremony would not be additionally prolonged.

And, yes, I would agree with the comment that the fact of these Friday award presentations could have been more conspicuously posted. When we attend the post-season meeting in our areas, we need to voice that suggestion.

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As has been already mentioned, the animation and website awards (as well as the Founder's Award and volunteer award... not unimportant honors) are presented earlier because the winner is known in advance, as opposed to the technical awards, rookie awards, Engineering Inspiration, and Chairman's. My guess on why they put the Woodie Flowers award at the same time is so that the winner can be recognized through the whole event. I don't think I'd have had a chance to find and congratulate Paul Copioli at the last minute on Saturday, so I'm glad I was able to do so on Friday. Trash heap? I think not. Besides, much as I admire Dean Kamen and Larry Page, I think we were all pretty antsy for things to move along, and I'm glad we didn't have to wait through even more awards. The one point that I agree with, though, is that they should have been showing the animations between matches, both at regionals and in Atlanta. I remember seeing many animations countless times in Sacramento last year, but the only animations I've seen this year were the winning safety video and the award winners in Atlanta. Since the animations are about the ideals of FIRST, it seems like an appropriate interlude throughout the day. I am curious to hear why FIRST decided not to show the animations (I'm certain it's not out of disrespect for Autodesk, one of the largest contributers to the program), but I understand why the awards were part of Friday's ceremony.

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Look at it this way: Animations is recognized, and it's not an essential part of FIRST. The program could get along just fine without the Autodesk awards, as nice as the finished results are. Programming, however, is a required part of FIRST, and we don't have any programming-specific awards.

I'm not sure if you're justified in complaning. And beyond that, I'm not entirely sure why this is a bad thing. Animators were recognized, and there isn't any real reason to wait until Saturday afternoon to do that. Why not do it at the beginning of the day, when we have yet to be distracted by the finals or other, bigger awards?

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And there is a typical attitude towards the animation.
Why is that?
Probably because it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ROBOT AT ALL! Why should anyone care about it? They have to change the competition so that it is more useful to FIRST's needs instead of just paying lip service to it
I think it needs to be tied into another aspect of the competition like with the Inventor award or the website or retooled so it's better utalized as an actual TV commercial that has to be used on television to actually advertise the team or FIRST or a regional (give them a minute to do so). As it is now it's really not being utalized in a useful manner that serves any real purpose than to give a bunch of talented people a place to showcase their talent in an event that really has nothing to do with what they are doing.
That has to change.

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Just as a thought, why not have a Friday closing ceremonies as well? It might get a little hard getting four fields together, but the format there works at thirty other events.

(As for the original comment, I did find it a bit odd to have those awards there--but I definitely can think of worse things to happen.)

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It was announced that these awards would be given on Friday in an e-mail blast a few days before the championships.

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I agree with Ed's comments. The animation competition is always an afterthought and that will never change because the animations don't benefit FIRST. I don't think they should've put the WFA on Friday because it deserves better than to be put with the animation award.

During the Friday awards ceremony, no one payed attention and no one really cared. The "trash heap" was not given out Saturday night because the closing ceremonies were way too long. I think rather than giving them out on Friday morning, they should give them out Friday night so people might actually listen.

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You're right. It does. And there's a good chance that it will, now that Autodesk is becoming a more prominent sponsor.

It's worth pointing out that all of your changes go back to my original point: right now, FIRST doesn't need the animations. It's not tied to the rest of the program in a way that makes it essential. I'd support the animations fully if FIRST changed how they were used, maybe, but they're currently a nice distraction. They aren't pushed by FIRST, it's not easy to see them while at competitions, and they aren't a required part of the competition.

Still, I'd say that the fact that animation is recognized at all while other aspects of FIRST teams are ignored shows that you've already got some respect.

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I also think that they should go back to the way awards were before '03 where they would go through all the final matches, then give out awards, there was also time for teams to get the division awards before hand, and people did stick around after the event to watch the award ceremony and listen to the speakers. I definitely liked that structure better because there was more focus on each individual event, the final rounds and the awards, versus now where they clump awards in with speakers and matches, which seems to cause everything to go more slowly and have people fall asleep in the stands or go to other measures to end boredom such as paper airplanes and Frisbees coming down from the upper tiers of seats.

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Also, AIA is more "neglected" (notice the quotes) than animations. AIA does not have regional awards (which I'm confident 294 would have won) and this has been the first year in which any other award other than winner has been given. Honestly, though, using Autodesk products is its own reward. Users get a new robotics experience, as well as knowledge that can be used in a career. Can't we all just look at the experiences?

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So basically, you're saying what I and countless others worked on for six weeks is just a nice distraction?

I'm offended.

Just another example of how few respect the Animators and Inventor people.

Although, I am glad things have advanced since my freshman year. The fact that there is a Regional Award for animation is great. Now there just needs to be a Regional Inventor Award and things would be perfect.

I could really care less as to when the Awards are - as long as most people are present (and most are at opening ceremonies) then it's all good.

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I think the animation needs to be expanded even more. You either win or you lose, and there's no recognition for teams that don't get the big prize. People shift attention onto the robot, but for a lot of us, the animation competition is FIRST. I don't work on the robot. Although I have an interest in it doing well because my team worked on it, I care a hell of a lot more about the animation award than I do about the actual game. For animators, instead of the animation being icing on the robot cake, things are just the opposite. For us, the animation is the main course, and it's rather frustrating to be blown off by people who focus solely on the building of a robot.

For those of you who attempt to marginalize the animators contribution: I dare you to make an animation even coming close to the worst animation submitted this year. I guarantee that 90% of you would fail miserably. It's a lot harder than you guys think and we put a ton of work into making top rate animations. The fact that we have been shortchanged by the powers that be for years is a disgrace to FIRST.

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I think announcing a few Fri morning is fine as long as the teams are aware that this will take place (which could be improved upon). The problem with a Fri PM ceremony is that, with all the teams, matches need to run as long as possible...

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it really doesn't surprise me when they announced the AVA and AIA winners, nore am i really that bothered by it. it was all intended to shorten the ending cerimony and understand the reasoning behind it. my real problem is the lack of recognizition the AVA submittions are given at the compitions and by first. i must agree that i was extremely disappointed that all the entries were not played at all for the viewing of other participants and am even more annoyed that the scholarship winners weren't announced, with the exception of Mike "Koolaid" of team 11 who had a nice sign made at the northeastern table stating he was the recipient.

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On the flip side, the trophies this year were uber cool.


I'd like to say one thing; there never has been an animation that is TV quality. Not worthy of putting an official Autodesk stamp on, anyway. If there was a consistent submittal of professional-looking animations that expressed the FIRST message, Autodesk would be much more interested in the competition.

Don't misunderstand. We work hard, we put in hellish hours. And Autodesk's support has been increasing. But something more still needs to happen before general people can start appreciating our work. Maybe a longer official design period, give us enough to make a detailed, interesting scenes. If I remember the stats correctly, professional studios produce, on average, 3-5 seconds of animation a week. There's just no way an above average team can crank something like that out, not to mention rookie or under-funded teams.

On the other hand, I hear a lot of teams say something similar to "animation is something we leave til the end and throw something together". That is a junk attitude, and I can guarantee that there is someone in that team's school who would very much enjoy using their creativity to make an award-winning video. It is the team's job to find those people, equip them with good mentors and computers, and allow them to get the job done.

As it is, I predict any progress towards a more exciting AVA award will be slow. I have little doubt that it was only included as a contractual stipulation between FIRST and Autodesk so that students would find an interest and eventually buy the software. That doesn't mean, by any measure, that I love creating the video any less. But I do wish we would get a bit more recognition.

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Personally, I don't really care about the animations. My team didn't even bother to make one. However, if I had spent the time and effort to make one, I wouldn't be happy.

The thing that bugged me was that they didn't show them on the screens during down times. Even when there were breaks in the competition that were so long the announcer ran out of stories to tell, they didn't show the animations. (The down time I'm talking about was due to technical difficulties, and really did take a long time.)

I just don't understand why they weren't shown. I enjoy seeing them, even if I'm not hoping to get the award. As a driver, I'd much rather watch some of the excellent animations students have put together than just stand around when there's down time.

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I did not walk away with an impression that any of the awards were slighted.

I like that the WFA is announced on Friday - it gives everyone a chance to congratulate the winner, and, especially this year, made the winner behave for two days :) .
I recall a few years ago when AB received the honor, it was at the end of the ceremonies, and with the Chairmans and Championships and all, it was difficult to talk to him, plus he was down on the comp floor. Having the WFA on Friday makes great sense.

The Animation and Autodesk awards are judged in advance, and so they can be presented on Friday. They got their own special time. I will have to admit I was more alert for them than some of the late Saturday awards.

Everyone should be proud of their work and their recognition - no matter when they were announced.

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Personally I have seen several animations that are very near to the "TV quality" that you speak of. One comes to mind; the 2004 animation featuring the chibi ninja doing training exercises (for which I don't remember the team number offhand) came very close in my opinion.

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Hey i would get mad too, but then again i didnt go to the nationals (nor did my animation). BUT same thing happened at the pittsburgh regional, in that i even recall being surprised that they'd announce it the first day :ahh:

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O.K. so being one of the people "shafted" by the morning awards I guess I should say something.

The WFA on Friday is a great idea. It gave people the entire competition to find me (if they dared) and congratulate me personally. I thought it was a good idea. Many people congratulated me that I didn't even know and I thought that was really cool.

With regards to the animation and inventor awards, I do see a change in attitude toward Autodesk and these awards, but I really don't see how the Friday a.m. awards ceremony was part of this. Plain and simple, these awards are pre-determined so why not give them out first? The awards ceremony is already too long as it is. Besides, the opening ceremony never really was a big audience getter but I bet next year the attendance at the opening ceremony will be much higher.

Ed, I can tell you first hand that Autodesk has placed a bad taste in our team's mouth. Does the Website award tell you what tools you must use? Does the Industrial design award tell you what tools you must use? The answer to both these questions is "no." Do the animation awards tell you which software you must use? You bet. Does the Inventor Award tell you what software to ... oh wait ... Inventor Award. The Autodesk guy was looking at our poster in front of our pit showing our robot design and use of solid models. He asked, "who did all the great Inventor work?" We replied, "we used SolidWorks." What he said next floored me. He said, "oh, that's too bad ... never-mind." Are you kidding me? That is ridiculous. The Inventor Award is a joke to me because it EXCLUDES any team that chooses to use a different set of tools to do robot design. Anyone who uses Inventor to do design, don't get me wrong, it is a great tool and keep using it but the award has an ulterior motive that just doesn't sit well with me.

-Paul

Re: Shafted again
 

I have to agree with this. I've been forced to use 3dsMax for the animation. What if we'd rather use Maya? Or softimage? Or any number of other 3d softwares?

As far as the importance of the animation competition in the first place, I think it should be more tied into chairman's. Animation is a way of expressing ideas through video and audio produced in a spatual world created in the writer's imagination. For as long as I have been involved, the competition has always been the same; 'what appealing aspect of FIRST means the mostto your team'. What's funny is that almost no animations follow this criteria. Everybody wants something new! Why not 'show what your robot can do' or 'what does your team do in your community'? Why not make the animation part of the Chairman's presentation as well as its own competition? And why only 30 seconds? The regional with the most animations had 24, so even if each animation was 2 minutes it take less than an hour to view them all.

Anyway, kind of went off on a rant there. Hope I didn't offend anybody.

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Hi Everyone,

I'd just like to say that maybe if we cut some of the Hollywood crap out of the awards show then we would have time to recognize actual achievement of teams. What do I mean...do we really need that guy riding in on a motorcycle?? And telling us about how great he is because he owns it and a really cool car?? Is that the message that FIRST is trying to send?? Be an engineer you'll get cool stuff?? I'm sorry but as a long time participant of FIRST that left a really bad taste in my mouth. To me that seems anti-everything Dean/Woodie stand for. Also the awards ceremony is over produced especially for the audience that watches it...if it really were a national audience fine but it is primarily FIRST people who watch. Also something needs to be done about Dean and his speeches...someone should enforce a time limit. The Google guy's rambling didn't help either. Also let's just play the finals and not have all of this jumping back and forth. Just a few thoughts.

Justin

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Quite frankly Justin, yes, I do believe it is. The intent of FIRST is to inspire kids to go into technical and science careers. If we can make kids say "wow, engineers are cool, they drive cool cars and do cool stuff" then yes, I do believe that our objective has been achieved.

I agree that animation is underrepresented, especially after hearing all what has been said in this thread, however, I think that it is very important to keep students thinking engineers are cool. Bring those awards back to the main ceremony by all means, but leave the guys trying to inspire students alone please.

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Paul, I respect what you have said here, and understand where you are coming from. However, I would like to point out some facts.

Some teams do use other pieces of software. Maya is one of the favorites, as well as Lightwave and other utilities such as poser. I do most of my modeling in UG or it's cousin solidedge, then I import it to max. Some teams don't even use max at all, and render straight from maya, and then re-construct with some other video editing program to hide the video signature.

Regardless, the thing to keep in mind is that Autodesk is an “Official Sponsor” of FIRST teams, right up there with FedEX. Of course they want teams to use their product, and of course FIRST is going to make the award requirements include their software.

To put this in perspective, perhaps a FedEX rep was wandering through the pits during shipping, and noticed a UPS label on your crate. They would probably wonder / ask why you chose UPS for this shipment, as their company had provided several air bills. Even if you used them all, you would probably continue to use FedEX for your robot crate. I know we did.

These companies aren’t selling this stuff to FIRST. Autodesk doesn’t make huge amounts of money each year by selling FIRST 1000 copies of their software. It is donated, educational material. They get really good advertising, and FIRST provides them with thousands of students who are willing and able to use their software, and get really good with it. Win-win baby.

A true animator won’t stick to one piece of software. I don’t know any animators / CAD guys here at Stryker Instruments who only use WildFire (our companies software of choice). People try new things, to extend their skill and learn.

Autodesk gives us access to very expensive software, and I for one am grateful of that.

-Alex

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Don't you see this as a problem? Why do you have to hide the video signature? IF the steel industry sponsored the design award, would I have to hide the fact that I am using aluminum? I am grateful that Autodesk is sponsoring FIRST, but let's allow any animation to be submitted (and win) not just those composed in #DS. Same with the Inventor award. C'mon, it's called the Inventor Award, not the Solid Modeling Award for Pete's sake.

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There must be something about inventors and giving long, rambling speeches. Both those guys could use a good speech writer (not to mention a speaking coach).

However, I did like the jumping back and forth, although they could've saved a LOT of time by doing the awards while they were scoring the field. By the time they started the next award, the next match was usually set to go.

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More.

25 donated licenses per team * 1000 teams = 25000 licenses.

Plus 1 donated license of 3DS/team * 1000 teams = 1000 licenses.
25000
+1000
26000

I am all in favor of expanding the name of the awards to visualization award and solid modeling award (name sounds awkward).

On a similar note, does innovation just have to be due with Radioshack? Does sportsmanship only come through J&J? Does entrepreneurship only come through Kliener Perkins? Does quality only come through Motorola? Does creativity only come through Xerox?

Using this logic, does it make sense that the awards are named after Autodesk and yet it is (theoretically) the only software that is used? I think this should be addressed.

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I say us animators band together, I say, we start and finish the 'super-animation' project. Make FIRST recognize how dedicate and talented Animators really are. If we throw something amazing their way, they cant help but notice it. Furthermore, if the construction process is properly documented, It will not only "raise the bar" for future animators, but give them an example of how to create, and shape their own animation entries. The way I see it, its a triple win: Animators involved get more experience, new animators have a template for how to make their own, and it may spur FIRST to pay more attention to us. (Not to mention the fact that it would be a blast :yikes:)

Waddya say?

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I'm all for it, Mike.
Let's spread the word.
We've got to prove our worth to FIRST.
This is a good start.

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Niiiice. I'm in.

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These are the only awards that are known ahead of time aside of the chairmans and EI, which are the two highest honors in FIRST and deserve to go last. Thus that is why they are presented first. The opening ceremony awards are no worse than the closing ceremony. At least every team is there at that point. There were several teams who didnt stay past the last match to watch the winners get their medals, the EI award, or the Chairmans. At least every team is watching the autodesk, website, founders, volunteer, and WF awards. This is NOT an outrage, and by no means should any award be considered lower because it is given out on friday to keep the saturday award ceremony shorter. Its not like they are giving them out during thursdays lunch break or something.
IF you have a problem with the manor in which FIRST deals with its animation and CAD awards, then there are countless other competitions in which you can showcase your skills. There are still a very large number of teams which dont register an entry for one or both of those awards, and therefore its not only FIRST who you feel gives less recognition and respect to you, but your fellow peers on FIRST teams as well. I think your going to have to win the respect of your peers before you win the respect of FIRST itself.
Just look at what 116 has become. The animation team has won respect within the team and now commands large numbers and a great deal of influence on the team as a whole. If you want to command more respect within the FIRST community you have to earn it. Whining and complaining about when your award is given out will not do that.
FLL and FVC had completly seperate award ceremonies, which the involvement from the FIRST staff and the FIRST community was far less. Do you hear them whining about how they get no respect? Just be glad you get to be part of the biggest award ceremony in FIRST at all....

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Actually, Im pretty sure they donate the software to FIRST...

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Those were the total of donated licences. I'll edit the post to make it clearer

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Autodesk is asking for feedback. After all the yes/no questions, you can add comments at the end.

Survey link: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=541401197549

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I did.

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In my humble opinion, it would be very hard to give good judgement to any award having to do with programming. Not only would judging programming based on the source code take forever (and be pointless because teams change code all the time), it's hard to tell the difference between the program's design and its actual output... not to mention discerning between intended success and accidental success on the field.