Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

That would be awsome!

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Doing a simple search in about 5 minutes, unless you're flying out of CA, and a couple other western states, it's far more expensive to fly to Las Vegas than it is to Atlanta.

It's about $150 cheaper for flights from CA to Las Vegas than to Atlanta, but there are far more people who would be paying more to get to Las Vegas than they would to get to Atlanta, which ends up being a net negative, even if it is a positive for some west coast teams.

Atlanta is a major hub--far more so than Las Vegas. I believe Atlanta is the busiest airport in the world. As far as flights and airfare go, Atlanta, LA, Chicago, and NYC are most likely going to be the cheapest, as they're the largest hubs.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%2...senger_traffic

List of the world's 30 busiest airports (by passenger traffic).

Las Vegas does make it onto the list (#9), but serves a little over half the traffic that Atlanta does (#1 with a comfortable 9,000 passenger lead). It appears Vegas is barely bigger than Denver or Phoenix.

With Chicago, LA, and Dallas servicing so many flights, they may be options if a close venue could be found.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

That's actually 9 million people. :)

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Whoops. I read that as thousands and was assuming it was talking about passengers per day :rolleyes:

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

NYC? Well we usually stay at the Big Apple Hostel on W45 for the NYC Regional. Basic but quite cheap and well placed; half a block from Times Square. This year we stayed for a week, flew into JFK from London Heathrow with British Airways. I don't know exact costs off hand though.

I'm sure that Cunard would love any attempts to use the QE2 if you can afford it; I doubt it's big enough to hold a decent size regional though (never mind the championships) without causing enough damage to need a small fortune to pay for the repairs. Before you say anything, I won't start on the list of things we've broken or damaged in my 2 years with 759.

As for Detroit? It held the Super Bowl surely, so why not? If it's good enough for the NFL and AFL, would it not be good enough for FIRST? (I've never even been there by the way, but I know its reputation)

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Detroit's convention center is about 2 miles from the covered stadium (Ford Field). The sets for the halftime show at the Super Bowl had to be pushed in from across the street at Comerica Park (baseball), outside. Neither is a good choice for the pits.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Some people have begun discussing this location issue in other threads. I thought I would bring this thread to the top of the list for the folks that are not aware that they can discuss it here.
Dave

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

it should be in Tel Aviv, Israel. :) .

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

well, being from a southern state, i love it being in atlanta, it is close enough to go to, but far enough to be far away. i think it ought to be in a more central location, a little farther north or west. somewhere in tennesee would be great.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I say that if FIRST wants a centralized location near a major city, then the choices have to meet the following requirements: domed stadium, large international airport, and midwestern city. The cities that meet these requirements are Minneapolis, St. Louis and Houston. Dallas will meet the domed stadium requirement when the new Cowboys stadium is completed. St. Louis would be the best choice out of the three because they are also central when it comes to north-south access.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Hopefully, people will take some time to skim through this very long thread before posting. Yeah, reading through >300 posts is tedious, but... when the thread was alive last year I found that I would quote some of the earlier posts because the content was exactly what the much later post was querying. I know we're all anxious to get our opinions out there, but having to repeat the same information again and again is a bit annoying.:rolleyes:

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I hate all the talk about flying, as much as I'd like to fly down, the reality for our team is we're going to end up taking a super long bus drive down to Atlanta. For those of us who do not have the monetary resources to fly, something in the middle of the country would be good.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Atlanta is fine, if they need more teams just move them next door to the Phillips Arena, thats where FVC and FLL can go, therefore, you can have six divisions at the georgia Dome and move o the Phillips arena for the championship event seating like 18,000 FIRSTers or something close to that, Atlanta is the only legit city i can think of near the east coast that has a good transit system and good weather, and on top of that it's easy to get to.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Greensboro, NC... Greensboro Coliseum Complex, right off of I-40/85,
great venue , great Bar B Que right across the street.
Lots of motel rooms less than 1/2 mile. Easy to get in and out of.
Well stocked electronics store right across the street too :cool:

Plus, its four blocks from my house :D
And they need more events to keep it making a profit... city owned and operated so tax payers pick up the slack. :(

But all kidding aside.... Greensboro or any another place in Carolina i.e. Charlotte or Winston-Salem would be great. Right in the middle of the east cost along the major north/south interstate (85/95) with the major east/west interstate (I-40/421). Greensboro been called the Gateway city due to the fact that it has long been the transportation hub for the east coast with major rail service, air service and of course 8 major interstate highways going thru it.
We have a great downtown night life with open air concerts during the warmer weather seasons. A brand new AA ball park down town home of the Grasshoppers.

I'm sure our 5 great colleges and the high tech companies here would welcome FIRST with open arms (if not wallets too).

Did I mention its only 4 blocks from my house :D

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

In an ideal world it would be in a different region each year like the super bowl or final four. This would help get the word about FIRST out around the country as well as helping to equalize travel costs among the teams. I understand that this would likely cause additional difficulties in finding venues and make organization of the event even harder, so I doubt that it is about to happen. Barring changing annual locations I think alternating between Nashville (or Atlanta) and Las Vegas (or Salt Lake City) would help equalize travel costs without increasing organizational overhead too much.

Brazil or New Orleans would be the funnest locations if we could make the competition in time for Mardi Gras.:)

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Like Atlanta. It is fun there. But maybe more north east (not cause im more north) but its closer to FIRST Headquaters.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I just had a crazy idea, we should have robotics competition domes! Just like football has football fields, basketball has basketball arena's and so on. Wouldnt that be sweet?

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

What if FIRST started a project to build a arena type stadium somewhere with the city paying part, sports teams paying anouther part and FIRST and other small orginizations paying the last part of it.

i think that would be an idea that can be tossed around

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

As a reminder, please avoid engaging in IM-style conversations via the forums. A conversation that alternates rapidly between two or three people is probably best handled via private messages or over AIM.

Thanks.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Is it wrong to answer his questions?????????:mad:

I dont have a direct chat.:mad:

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Y'all can take the time to assemble your questions into a single post and answer them in another well-considered, single post. Going back and forth creates a lot for others to read and contains comparably little content (e.g., 'oh'.)

You also have access to ChiefDelphi's own Private Messaging feature. At the top right of your screen, you'll find a link to your inbox. By clicking on a user's name within the forums, a drop down menu appears that allows you to send that user a message.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Take a city with a expiring arena for example, im just going to say Chicago or something like that.

The city pays one part of it

You build an arena/Convention center type place so that the sports team (football basketball, colleges, hockey baseball etc) pay a part of it (I KNOW MY SPORTS, the alamodome in San Antonio can fit both a basketball court and a football stadium.)

and then you take money from private donors and orginizations like FIRST and etc. .

thats what im talking about

iit would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 Million BUT lets say there is a nice enough city that pays $150 million or even $200 Million (Orlando is building a new $350 million dollar arena and the city is paying $150 Million and the county is paying another $75 Million). You combine state, federal and county grants to this arena and your already half the way there.

The Orlando magic made a bid of about $125 million for this new arena, if you do the same lets say for a all purpose stadium, then your good with it

FIRST would probably have to pitch over $10-$15 Million in my opinion to get the championship there as long as it likes.

now THATS what i was talking about

P.S. Let us design the arena, after all we are going to become the engineers of tomorrow right. so why not start on the arena of tomorrow with us?

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

FIRST having it's own arena would be nice, but I don't know how well that will work. Remember that whatever arena they would construct, it most likely needs to be designed to handle what FIRST will look like 5 years from now (since a stadium/convention center duo will undoubtedly take close to this long, if not longer). FIRST has only been around for a little over 15 years, and with it growing at the exponential rate it is, that could be a hard number to predict (who knows? Maybe they'll even be a 4th competition in addition to FVC, FLL, and FRC by then).

If it's feasible I think it would be cool for FIRST to do a rotating Championship between 2 or 3 (or 4 even) cities (yes, I know it was mentioned earlier, but it's a very good idea). As long as it was between 4 or less cities, and you spaced them fairly evenly across the country (1 West Coast, 1 East Coast, 1 Southern, and 1 Northern, or some other combo), you end up giving almost every team in the country a chance to have easy access (aka within a 10 hour bus ride) to the Championship sometime during a student's 4 year high school attendance. If they ever got adventerous FIRST could even have one Championship in Canada :)

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I know you said dont put your city but.... Glendale, Az is hosting the superbowl this year and theres a great shopping venue and hotels nearby. another great place would be Anahiem Convention/Disneyland

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I wouldn't mind it in Canada. Canada produces a lot of good robots given the fact we only have two regionals, and I think it should be held up here at least once. Say in the ACC or something

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

As much as Canada sounds cool, I'm nto sure if it would be in the best interest of FIRST, since with recent laws saying your going to need a passport to fly in, I'm not sure if teams would be able to go thru with that, YES i know that most kids now have passports, but i always used to remember the hassle it was to just travel from Michigan to Ontario for a regional, and this would be magnified bya bout 5 times amount of people. What does everyone think about this?

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

don't forget about what happened last year about that one kid from New York, it was on the CBS Evening News

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

The gov't is supposed to be passing a law where if you are traveling with a team or some sort of organization, the only thing you need to pass to Canada is a birth certificate.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

yeah I heard about that team thing as well. And I was thinking if we got one in Canada, Canada will become more involved and I wouldn't be surprised to see more regionals popping up around say BC and Alberta. It would be a nice way to promote FIRST in Canada.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I know that I have already responded in post #20 but I gave no reasoning.

Anyone that has been to Disney for the Championship will know what I mean!
For all its faults it was the most awesome experience. Please don't take this as a disrespect of Atlanta or Houston. We have had a great time in both cities and both cities have provided nothing but fond memories for our team.

Top reasons to go back to Disney:

* SECURITY! As long as you keep track of your students general movements and they stay on the Disney Campus you have a 99.9 % chance that they are safe moving around on their own. As a teacher this was a pleasure. You will always worry about your kids, but this went a long way towards easing your mind.

* EXPERIENCE! Disney is in the business of handling extremely large groups of enthusiastic kids. They know what they are doing and already have an environment setup for this.

*PUBLICITY! I feel that the media exposure for FIRST and the access to visiting celebrities was so much higher when we were at Disney. There were always famous people walking through the pits, talking to the kids.
Thousands of kids in team shirts walked around Disney for 4 days encouraging the general public to visit the competition and they did visit. People that had no affiliation with FIRST would bring their families to watch.

* MAGIC! When your team is at Disney for the Championship, you feel SPECIAL, in a way that no conventional city environment can duplicate. Don't get me wrong I am a city person and I love cities. I just feel that in the end there is no other place on Earth that can match this feeling of reward after a long hard season. I can remember being in the Einstein stadium, outdoors on a beautiful Florida morning, listening to inspirational speeches,watching the monorail pass the stadium and seeing how pumped up the kids were by the environment. I can remember thinking "Perfection"!!

There has been a great deal of feedback both here and other places that basically says "I should forget this dream". People keep telling me "Disney is Dead", "Let it Go". I can't! I feel like we have all been away from our home for the last five years. We need to go home to Disney!!

With all of the accumulated brain power of FIRST and its Teams we can find a way to make the Disney environment work for everyone. We can do it. For every obstacle presented, there are many solutions.

Sorry for such a long post!

Good luck to everyone going to the Atlanta Championships. It will be a blast!

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

My vote goes for Washington DC/College Park, MD in future years:

The subliminal reason is that it's just a metro ride away from where I am.

The Verizon Center can seat about 35,000 people and is within (again) a metro ride from Georgetown, the various museums, Congress, the White House, and a whole bunch of entertainment options.

It fits into the Dean's Homework and just a drive/walk for your Reps/Senators.

College Park fits the bill of doing the Championship at a world-leading engineering university. You have the Comcast Center for the field(s) again I'm not sure if it's big enough. TerpZone at Stamp Student Union. Plus, whenever the new mall and hotels are built at University View (near East Campus) and crime lower than it is now (CP is experiencing the same crime problems affecting all of PG County, and little-tolerance alcohol policies do not necessarily stop it because a couple of crimes I know about occurred in broad daylight at times most students that do drink do not drink.). Who knows?

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I really like this idea... the championship event should be made available to all parts of the country without causing a financial burden at least once every high schoolers time in FIRST.

It sad when a team earns a spot at the championship but either can not attend or can only afford to bring a small group with them. Not to mention all their supporters. :cool:

Once again... Greensboro,NC would make an ideal east coast location... right in the middle between Florida and New York. :D

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I'm hoping for a move to the Midwest sometime in the next 2 years before I graduate. Atlanta is a cool city, and works for FIRST now, but I feel that there are other cities that are just as great, or may have more to offer than Atlanta, such as St. Louis, Minneapolis, or Indianapolis.

Any move at the moment would be great for the growth of FIRST. There isn't a better way to express the true meaning and impact of FIRST than seeing the best of the best gathered at one place --The International Championships. After being in Atlanta for 3 years, the local businesses and school systems have had quite some time to pickup on FIRST...it's time to spread the message somewhere else.

I'm sure that teams that go to the Championships year after year agree that the Atlanta attractions have been exhausted quickly. In 3 years, most teams have already gone to the GA Aquarium, visited the World of Coke, the Underground, taken a CNN or GA Tech tour, been to a Braves game, and gone to most of the restaurants nearby. I have only been once, and now there really isn't anything besides the competition that I'm looking forward to.

Going back to logistics, it has been stated many times in this thread that a Midwest location would even out the traveling costs for teams. It may appear ironic that I am advocating for a regional farther away, when Atlanta is only a 1.5 hour flight away, but I see it as a win-win situation. Everyone (except Midwest teams) pays the same price to get there, and we all get to travel to a new place. Of course I could say that moving to South Florida would be perfect (Miami/Ft. Lauderdale comes to mind with tons of hotels, tourist attractions, great weather, and the beach), but there are a few flaws and that would be pushing it.:D

*I am slightly biased on the ATL situation. I once lived in a surrounding city, and I visit there almost every year now, so there is nothing that special about the city anymore, to me at least.

-No L

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

im realy hoping that it stays in atlanta. its in an ideal spot. i doubt that it will be moved to any costal areas because it'll cause to much contraversy. it needs to at least stay twards the middle of the country

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

While Atlanta isn't right on the east coast, it's not really the middle of the country. There are better locations that would make it easier for those teams in the western part of the country to attend.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

While other cities may be better for west coast teams I don't see nationals going to far west in the near future... I mean just look at a population distribution diagram. It's more or less east coast and west coast centered. Then look at a diagram of FIRST team in the US, then it becomes even more polarized to the coasts. Given, there are major cities "midway" between the coasts, I don't think any make sense to put an event like nationals there because logistically more teams would have to fly in. I know that with nationals in Atlanta a lot of teams up the east coast drive down (we live in the northernmost part of PA and drove down) and unfortunately most teams from the west coast have to fly (I'm not sure if any drove or not). With nationals in the middle of the country I believe it would increase the number of teams that would need to fly... I could be wrong though. And also I think that having CNN in Atlanta is a huge plus (they arranged a satellite feed to a local news station).

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

My vote goes in for Disneyworld (why isn't this a poll?), even though I live all the way on the other coast in California. The reason for this is because they got great facilities, it's safe, and it's a place where people come from all around the world. Last time I've been to Disneyworld was in Janurary of this year (2007) to see my brother play with the u17 us national team (for soccer) at the wide world of sports. When I was there, I went to the animal and magic kingdom, and it was packed! There were people from all over the world, that clogged the lines everywhere. The whole park was crowded. With so many people, a Robotics Championship would draw some attention to people from other countries. If FIRST held the championships in DisneyWorld for at least 4 years, there would definitely be more countries in Europe and Asia competing. To most of you who have made it to the championships, it would get more difficult, and challenges would get harder and fun.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

So why not have TWO championships? (Has this been suggested? I didn't reead all 330 emails...)

One on the East Coast and one on the west coast?

Run 'em on the same weekend. Have each piped into the other so we can watch both live.

This keeps the costs down for the teams that can't travel, and still allows teams that want to travel an opportunity to go to the other coast.

It allows us to DOUBLE our current capacity while keeping all the current rules and logistics unchanged (ie: it's easy).

AND we end up with TWO sets of Champions - nothing wrong with that.

They could meet at IRI in the summer for bragging rights ...

I realize there is cost involved in doing two, but if you are going to Double or triple the size of the program, as dean suggests, you're gonna have to do something anyway ... and we already run 5 to 6 regionals on all the other weekends - so this should be a snap.

Of Course, if we have to do it SOMEWHERE, Atlanta works for me - 45 minute drive ... <grin>

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Then they theoretically would not be the champions. It kinda turns itself into just another regional. Now, if you had the two competitions to narrow down the crowd for a championship, only allow the teams that placed a in a certain spot in the other two to participate, and have the big championship somewhere else in a more central location between the two, say Iowa or something like that, that would work a lot better. In my opinion, Atlanta is too big of a competition, creating the kind of a setup would limit the size of the championship, bring out the best of the best, and be much more exciting than atlanta.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

The Championship was at Disney through 2002. FIRST grew too large and they didn't ask us to come back, as I understand it.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Something similar happens with EARLY (Engineering and Robotics Learned Young) Competition that my team hosts. The American champions play against the South African champions by recording a match after the competition is over.

The thing is, FRC is not like that. There is a defense element in the recent FRC games. IF that defense element went away it would be possible but that would take some of the intensity and fun out of the games.

One championship is fine. If they want, they can relocate to a city where there are the most teams within a 50 mile radius so teams can drive to and from competition and save money, but then it will be in the northeast most likely around Michigan/Indiana [1] or somewhere in the North. Logically this would save the more teams money. What is the purpose of having two just because there are only 1/3-1/4 teams on the west coast and the other portion is all on the east? Many people think of their own teams but what they need to realize is that there are hundreds of teams at the Championships. But IF we wanted to do it the way I mentioned above, you might want to make it easier for ONLY the participating teams, so picking an area where most of the participating championships teams are located within a 50-100 mile radius is the most efficient way, BUT I don't think you can book huge arenas and complexes with two weeks notice.

[1] Post Reference - http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=349

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I've said it before and I am saying it again: The Championships will move to Indianapolis.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I'm not sure it really matters a huge amount where FIRST puts the championship as long as its not some where completely out of the blue. I wouldn't be surprised if they put it in LA or Atlanta or Detroit or Cleavland, I would be blow away however, if they put it in say Denver. I would be pleased if they did (close) but I just don't think they would.

Personaly I hope that they put it where the best facilities are. I have been to Atlanta but I haven't gone to any other place for the championship so I don't know if Atlanta is the best. I can't really say who has the best place because I haven't done the research. I loved Atlanta but I might have done a little more walking than I would have liked.

I don't know where the championship would be but I hope it is somewhere other than Atlanta. I've been there and it would be cool to get to go somewhere else.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I'd like to see Indianapolis hold the Championship, or perhaps have FIRST go back to hosting them in Orlando for a year or two.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I agree with David Kelly, it'll innevitably end up (I hope) somewhere in the Midwest. Indy is very close to a lot of teams, not to mention only 5 hour drive for me. I don't see the Championship ever going too much further towards a coast than what Atlanta is right now... It just doesn't make any sense. St. Louis would be a very good place to put the Championship, also.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

There are more teams in the Indy area than Michigan area?!?!?

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

The Championships move out of Orlando right before my freshman year because FIRST was getting to big for the Facilities that Disney World provided. Then they moved the championships to Houston for a year, it was fun but the walk from stands to ground floor of the Astrodome was much longer than I think anyone liked, oh and the robots had to take the same journey up and down the Switchbacks leading in and out of the building, the two day team social inside Houston Six Flags Astroworld was fun too. But ever since it has been in Atlanta, Its a nice location and the walk is not that bad if you know the side entrances and stuff.

The idea of the Championships being somewhere else would be interesting, the centralization would probably not be very efficient for either side of the nation(as previously stated), but what if they had two sites for nationals like Atalanta for East coast and Vegas for the West coast and you switch venues back and forth every year to balance out the costs

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

No, but they are mostly all within a drives distance or so. There's no Michigan area that I know of that's big enough to hold the number of teams. Also, non-Michigan teams (exlcuding Canadians) would mostly have to fly in, because getting around the Great Lakes by bus/car is not very efficient.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I have a feeling that some schools would not like that idea and it might even prevent certain teams from even going.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

How about in San Jose? The capital of the Silicon Valley? San Jose has many large hotels in the downtown of it, and has a rather large convention center very conveniently placed. Not to mention that I would not mind having nats be biking distance from my house...

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Let's review the requirements again (this seems to come up every year):

(1) A covered full-size stadium for the fields.
(2) An adjacent convention center for the pits and other parts of the event.
(3) Hotels within reasonable distance/access.

There's not too many cities in the country that have all three.

Disney met (3) wonderfully, but fails miserably on (1) and (2) especially since the event has gotten so big.

Houston had (1) and sorta (2) and (3) - maybe with the new convention center planned to replace the Astrodome (2) would work better.

Detroit has (1) but not (2) at all, and hardly (3) because most of the hotels aren't near Ford Field.

Despite just being at IRI, I wasn't downtown. It is my understanding that the new development will have both (1) and (2), and someone else will have to address (3).

What other cities with covered stadiums are there to consider? Not Vegas. Minneapolis? (but who wants to go there in April - weather in Indy would be iffy enough)

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Good Point...Start Factoring Weather into Championship locations.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

One thing we know for sure; FIRST won't screw this up.

Also, although atlanta isn't the most convienent for most (I know, I'm from california), it's a great location.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Even if it's not "convenient" for those like us on the west coast, there's not a place that is next to everybody.

Atlanta is great for because there's a lot to do, the venue can fit all of us FIRSTers, and a lot of hotels in the area.

Personally, I'd like to have it at a new location for something new, but if it's stays in Atlanta, I won't complain.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I was talking to my dad about this and he asked why teams didn't like Houston and I told him about all of the walking up and down and pushing the robot etc was just difficult and he had a suggestion. He said use golf carts but that got me thinking...

A few students on our team have tried this and it had some success, but if each team ordered 2 extra CIM's and hooked them up to a battery DIRECTLY (so that you don't need the costly stuff) and had to KEEP a button pushed down it would solve much of the problem. I wouldn't mind it being in Houston obviously but if that is one of the better places than it would be worth it for teams to adapt. Now is 2 CIMS a few feet of wire and a few mounting screws really that expensive if you're traveling to Championships?

(The 2 CIMS are just powering the in place wheels, I don't think steering is that difficult. If you wanted you could do a joystick but it'd be too complicated...I smell a white paper!)

I honestly think if a place is really that great, and there are few kinks to work out, it is worth working out those kinks so that you're still able to be in a great place.

Pavan.

EDIT: They tore down Astroworld btw, so I guess if that is what finally persuaded FIRST to move championships there I guess that selling stone is out of the picture.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

The 2007 Championship -- held in Atlanta, GA with its covered football stadium and enormous convention center and and and... -- hosted 344 FRC teams.

The 2002 Nationals -- held in Epcot at Walt Disney World with its giant tents, stadium seating and main stage -- hosted 335 teams.

There are way more teams now than there were then, but the size of the event has not changed significantly where FRC teams are concerned. There were operational shifts, certainly, including abandoning the use of the Einstein stage for regular match play. That's not a great loss, all things considered, given how remarkably alike and boring all of the fields have become, however. The biggest change, however, is the inclusion of FLL and FTC competitions at the same event. This is where capacity needs changed and so it's probably wisest to consider the needs of these programs when considering new locations than it is to consider our own.

I think, as with many things in life, the deciding factor in the location is more about economics than it is about anything else. If another city comes along and offers FIRST a better deal that still meets their capacity needs, they'll take it -- even if that city doesn't have a big, ugly football stadium and concrete-floored convention center to make us feel all warm and cozy.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Indy is in the process of building a new football stadium (another dome) and upgrading the convention center. . .

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

In my completely unrealistic & un-practical opinion I think FIRST ought to build its own stadium.

The stadium would be an ideal location for the championships. It could have an underground pit area, right below the fields. It would be carpeted, and would be surrounded by In-N-Outs, and Krispy Kreme shops. It would also feature an adjacent "Robot Museum," featuring famous or incredible robots from FRC, Pop culture, or the real world.

During the offseason it would be FIRST's HQ. Kickoff would be held here; as well as various conferences and planning sessions. FIRST could pay for the stadium by renting it out to other robotics competitions: BEST, EARLY, Botball, RoboCup, Combots, Robogames, and (depending on FIRST policy) Battlebots.

Of course it would also be used for FRC regionals and various FLL, FVC, and FTC events.

Now where to build it....

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Good luck getting that through. EARLY rivals JFLL and BEST and Botball rival FVC, FLL, and even FRC to a degree. So much for working together to promote the common goals these organizations share... :rolleyes:

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

piping in with my $ 0.02 worth.

Team distribution maps puts most teams near NY, NY. followed by Detroit and Washington.

It is my understanding that Disney doesn't understand the concept of free. It is a precondition that the public attend FIRST events for free.

What drives the decision mostly is quality of facilities and cost.
The Atlanta facility has the dome and the adjacent GWCC. There are only about 4 facilities like that in North America I'm told. It is easy find a stadium or a conference center, but not co-joined and at the right price.

Atlanta has CNN literally across the street and one of the largest airports in the world with direct flights from everywhere. How efficient the transportation system is in getting you there really affects teams more so than specific geographical location.

I know little about Detroit but they have a nice airport and a new stadium but I don't think they have a cojoined 'pit' area.

full disclosure: I have to vote for Atlanta because I can drive there in 25 minutes.

Ed

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

The FIRST event was, for most of its time there, held in Epcot's parking lot. It was free to anyone that wanted to attend -- except teams, of course.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Say What ??

When you say the parking lot, do you mean the pits and competition fields ?

Like outdoors in the sun and rain and stuff ?

Ed

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

As far as I know (and this info is just coming from hearing about it, not actually being there), but the pits were covered by a large tent and were outdoors.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Easily stated, yes. Like Alexa said, covered by tents. The walk from the pits to the fields were uncovered, if I remember correctly. If you were in the back of the viewing area, you couldn't see anything. It was a pretty bad place to be if you were susceptible to sunburns... :o

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I believe the new Indy stadium will connect to the conference center thats already there. It attaches to the RCA dome but thats getting torn down to add on to the conference center - which is right next to the new stadium.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Well, I have to say that I did love the one year that I went to the Championship in Disney that it was great. It's a fun place to be, but when I went, they were already kinda running out of space. Having that many teams there could be problamatic for moving around from pit to playing field.

Even though our team is only about a two hour drive to Atlanta, I think that it would be very good for FIRST and for many teams to have the Championship more easily acessible to more people. Some place in the midwest (such as St. Louis, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Houston) would be easier for west coast teams to get there.

While safety is an issue anywhere, I dont think that security is number one on reasoning for the event to be held. If this was the case, some of the regionals that exist now, wouldn't. Atlanta is a dangerous city, but what city isn't. There are regionals in Richmond, St. Louis, New Orleans, and if im not mistaken LA and San Deigo (just to name a few). If safety was number one priority, then some of these regionals wouldn't exist.

My verdict would just be to find a different place to spread FIRST that has adequite facilities similar to the setup in Atlanta. If I remember, St. Louis would be a good pick, but it's been a long time since ive been there.

My $.02

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Having the event at Disney in a parking lot boggles my mind.

I'm not sure that I would call Atlanta 'dangerous' compared to many other large cities. It certainly requires a bit of caution amongst all attendees, especially visitors that are not familiar with the city. The danger thing is a relative thing, to itself and to other cities. That whole area from Northside to North to downtown has been changing and upgrading fairly quickly over the last 15 years. And it's good to see that.

I think it would be great (no matter what city it is in) that there is a higher level of police presence strolling around the outside areas. If nothing else it will help out of towners feel safer.

I was in Indy a few years ago and I'm interested in seeing how the new facilities pan out. On a side point, in the RCA dome is a huge US Flag hanging from the ceiling of the dome. The best I can tell the people that made the flag didn't know what they were doing and have the dimensions (aspect ratio) all wrong. There is actually a federal spec for that and I'm surprised that got it wrong in a high profile building like that.

If most people fly then the event should be in the NYC area. But for a lot of non-northeast people NYC could be way more intimidating than ATL.

If most people drive, then Indy is more central. But all this chit-chat assumes there is a real need to change and the need may not really be there. If most teams now have the knowhow to get the ATL thing done then everyone doesn't have to relearn things for a new city.

This isn't the best thread for this but I have to post 2 gripes about the Championship and it is about the teams, not FIRST.

1) I couldn't believe the rudeness and attitudes from some parents on some teams regarding seat saving. They would carve out vast swaths of seats with none of their people in sight and didn't want to give up 5 seats for 15 minutes.

2) During the awards ceremony, the number of people that started leaving before the Chairman's Award was given.

I don't think it violates a principle of gracious professionalism to point out these two egregious behaviors.

We, all teams collectively, need to work on our manners.

My 57 cents.

Ed

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

The championship should be held any place but CT or NY it should be place in Hawaii, LA, or Orlando. It should be in a place with a beach and a lot of sun:D

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Look around CD-Media for some pictures taken at the event in Epcot. I think you'll find that it was a bit more than a simple parking lot. I usually describe it as a small city -- and I think that paints a more accurate picture. The venue and facilities provided were much nicer than the bare concrete floors and walls of the pits in Atlanta and the vast, empty space that is the Georgia Dome.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Too bad CNN can't get up off their butts and walk over to the Dome to give just a little coverage of something positive that's happening in the nation for once.

I also agree that transportation is a key factor into where this event should be held. The city must be equipped with an international airport in addition to a facility with the capacity and staffing for FIRST.

However, it seems that alot of people are missing a key point: On top of that there needs to exist a ridiculous amount of hotel rooms in the same area as the event such that teams can walk to the event in about 30 minutes -- this infers that the event must be held in a downtown area since the only other area known to have a plethora of hotels is the airport itself. So a brand new convention center + stadium is probably not going to get on the list of possible candidates until there are enough hotel rooms for 15,000 people at an affordable rate.

Having a place with the capacity to do the after party is also nice, but not as much of a "must" as these other key things.

Personally, I'd like to see a city that has alot of extracirriculars to offer in addition to the FIRST competition -- Braves Baseball and (whatever they're called) Hockey was nice in Atlanta, but perhaps we could also arrange something like a tour of Google or GM or similar if it was held in the appropriate city.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Yeah, but in the year 2000, which is the year that I went to the then nationals, space was limited. The facilities were better, but now the space that was available then would now not hold the 344 teams that were in this year's Championship event.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

;)

Space for FRC teams doesn't seem to be an issue at this time.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

point taken. :D

now we just have to get someone to pay for it :eek:

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

CNN did go to the Dome and cover the event, at least they did this year. It was on saturday if I'm not mistaken.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

There is much more to the event than only space for FRC teams. Consider FTC, FLL, Conferences, Supplier's Showcase, College Fair tables, VIP and Volunteer areas. All have gotten considerably larger since 2002.

Along with the number of FRC teams, these things must be considered.

Andy B.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Absolutely, Andy. I mentioned the growth of those other programs in my original post, so I didn't want to repeat it all again. It seems that, these days, most of the space required to host the Championship is contingent upon the success of programs like FTC and FLL and not, at all, upon FRC. It's an interesting perspective to consider given that many folks around here talk about the other programs as if they exist only to support and supplement "the big leagues."

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Even if we never go back to Disney, it is our true home and we will always be away from it.
It makes me sad to think that the last 9th grade students to visit Disney will be Juniors in college. Even a good percentage of the current FIRST staff must have been hired post-Disney.

As less people remember Disney, I fear our chances of returning are almost zero. :(

Other towns are fun, including Atlanta, but they don't match being at Disney with over 300 teams. It was worth being sunburned in the stands! :D

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

For some, it seems a sadness - a nostalgia/homesickness.

(When our teacher talks about it, he talks about the food. Something like miles and miles of food. :))

Edit: more thought - but with growth, comes change - and talk of more growth/expansion. The homework assignment last season met with some successes and the homework assignment this coming season will meet with more - and that will impact all of the areas that M. and Andy have discussed and possibly introduce more areas that will require attention and consideration.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

I know for fact that CNN covered it well the last two years. There is CNN headline and CNN. I know a couple of years a go it seemed FIRST was on all day.

I don't know how much time was spent this year but I did see several things and I had a couple of people tell me that they watched competition on Saturday morning on CNN and even saw our team competing.

Ed

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Actually, I did a brief study on this when Indy bid for the championships and almost got it. I'd have to find the old file, but it did not increase the number of teams that would need to fly - in fact it reduced the number. I think I set the driving distance to be reasonable at 10hrs, and the number of teams within that radius to Indy was more than that to Atlanta. Even at 8-9hrs driving distance it still won out. I believe I initially used the team attendance from the '05 championships, I forget. But when you look at the population distribution of all FRC teams - you have many, many teams in the midwest and east coast, and even south, within a very reasonable driving distance to Indy.

Indiana has a strong FIRST community and state educational support, and I don't think getting news attention is too difficult. We can also draw from many of the surrounding states media pretty easily since IL, MI, OH, WI, MN are all strong in FIRST. Obviously I would like to see it come to Indiana sometime but mostly because I see a lot of pros/advantages to doing so.

This thread has gotten so long now that many of the comments and debates are repeated. And who knows - perhaps the whole structure of FIRST will change, and championships will no longer be what it has been. With the expected growth, we should definitely expect some changes.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

If anything, it's more expensive to fly to any of those cities from the west coast than Atlanta.

Atlanta is one of, if not the cheapest major airport to fly to from the west coast. As I recall it, Orlando was a little cheaper in 2002, but ticket prices have been steadily rising since 9/11.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Cory is correct. What many people fail to realize, is that distance is not the largest determinant of price when dealing with flights within the continental United States. The demand for flights into a given city is. In 2006, Atlanta's Hartsfield airport ranked first in number of passengers and second in number of flights (Chicago's O'Hare was number one). Orlando is typically one of the cheaper cities to fly to, because of the large amount of tourist traffic they do, and the amount of charter services that result from the tourism.

The advantage to having the Championship in Indianapolis in terms of flights, as Amy pointed out, is that considerably fewer teams would have the need to fly. Although, I'm sure this is little consolation to the teams on the West Coast.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

As an Israeli team, we dont really care.
I suggest Israel for the championship though, who's with me? :D

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Atlanta is dominated by Delta, which can keep prices higher. Indy not dominated by any airline so the competition keeps prices low. Indy also gets Southwest which helps keep prices down.

Indy will also have a totally brand new terminal.

A few west coast examples.

LAX to Indy $244 LAX to ATL $234
San Diego to Indy $283 SD to ATL $317
Portland to Indy $244 to ATL $409

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Your last two examples are both pretty small airports, by my standards.

I've never seen flights to Indy from SFO, SEA, LAX, etc that were consistently cheaper than to Atlanta. Maybe super low bargain bin specials, but that's it.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

SFO to Indy $314 SFO to ATL $304
SEA to Indy $315 SEA to ATL $343


Regular flight were about the same with only $20 or $30 difference either way.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

you also got to think of the international teams that would be traveling to the championships. I would imagine that teams from South America, Europe, and Isreal would find cheaper flights going into atlanta as oposed to just about anyother city. Even though they number far less than west coast American teams we cannot forget that they too are apart of FIRST.

Personally, I think FIRST should work more with airlines to help teams get cheaper rates so more teams are able to experience the Championships.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Europe. OR the Caribbean. OR New York. Some where totally AWESOME!!!

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Somehow I think airfare would be a tad bit more for US teams, what with the ocean and all... and I don't think most of our team would want to try to drive...

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

There are some well deserving cities that have or will have, the facilities that Atlanta has for the Championship events. I think it will be very difficult to match what we have here in the facilities, hotels, restaurants, local transportation, a major worldwide news network and an airport that can handle the world.

Another city will very likely host the event for quite a few years I think, beginning in 2010. Then perhaps someday it will return to Atlanta. It seems fair that other cities be given the chance to host the event, perhaps it will help some teams travel costs and we can enjoy other parts of the country.:)

Dave

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Does anybody know when the bid to have the championships in Atlanta actually runs out? are we for sure that it is 2010?

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

San Fransisco would be nice.

I can almost guarantee that the proper facilities are there, It's a nice city (so long as you stay out of the bad parts), there's plenty of public transportation (I once went from my house to the metreon on only buses, and I live 60mi north of SF), it'd be easier on western teams, etc.

Or hell, anywhere on the west coast would be better (just not alaska, because that'd be a pain the butt for everybody, except the alaskans (even though I would LOVE to go to alaska)).

Or it could switch every year. East coast one year, West coast the next.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

San Francisco would be a relatively bad city. The only thing it has going for it is a large airport nearby.

The only 'suitable' venue would be Moscone Center, which would be entirely unsuitable for a FIRST competition anyways. As has been mentioned before, you ideally need an enclosed stadium with a conference center, or other large pit-sized area attached/next door. Nowhere in the bay area fits that bill.

One (the only?) site I can think of on the west coast that would meet the above criteria is the new Arizona Cardinals stadium. It's enclosed, and the field rolls out to allow other events to be held inside (it's actually a really cool engineering feat. Everyone should check it out, football fans or not). I don't know if it has any kind of attached conference center/facilities though.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

San Francisco has the Cow Palace. There have been presidential conventions, rodeos, circuses, auto races, etc held in the main building. It's been a long time since I have been there so maybe it is not as big as I think it is. Here is a view:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie...&t=h&z=17&om=1

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

A quick comparison shows the maximum floorspace of the Cow Palace to be ~30,000 sq. ft.

The space required for a football field alone, on the GA dome floor is ~60,000 sq ft. Plus extra room on all sides.

If the championship event was changed to only include FRC, it could be held any number of places--including Disney again, I'd assume. But as long as it stays the size it is (FRC, FTC, FLL), there's no real way it can be held anywhere but a domed football stadium with an attached conference center.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Good points.

While talking to the bid coordinator of Indy's FIRST Championship bid package the last couple of years, here is some info he has given me:

RCA Dome* floor size: 94,000 square feet (about)
Georgia Dome floor size: about the same as the RCA Dome floor
Lucas Oil Stadium** floor size: 150,000 square feet, after one end of the stadium has its removable seats taken away

* - home of the current Super Bowl Champions, Indianapolis Colts
** - future home of the Colts, starting in 2008

So, if FIRST chose to put their Championships in Indy, using Lucas Oil Stadium, the dome floor would be over 50% larger than the current setup is in Atlanta. I'm wondering if this is big enough for both the FRC pits and the fields.

Andy B.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

is that stadium domed, andy?

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

RE the pit areas.

The pit area in the GWCC in Atlanta has 4 segments of > 100,000 feet.

FIRST uses I think 3 segments so that is > 300,000 feet.

That isn't including the conference rooms upstairs or the conference rooms on the floor level at the east end of the GWCC.

Re: Championships location from 07 and onwards
 

Providence actually would be a great place to hold a regional. Almost all of providence is made up of hotels, inn's and restaurants because of Johnson and Wales University. The Convention Center is actually very big. several floors of just open Space. Though I don't think it could hold a regional of 100 teams. It could very well hold a regional of 50ish teams.

Also RI has the Dunkin donuts Center. Though I have never been in it I know it is rather Large. They are constantly holding Monster truck shows there so it must be very large. Also it is a dome with stadium seating. So it would be like a mini-Atlanta.