TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Warning: You have entered an it's-so-crazy-that-it-might-just-work zone.

The year is 2006, the day is January 7th, and the hour is 12 noon. After months of anticipation, Dean, Woody, & Dave are on stage ready to announce the '06 FIRST Challenge. Dean starts by saying, "Ladies & Gentlemen, it has come to my attention that you have not been doing your homework. And we ALL know that when you do not do your homework there must be consequences. Here are the consequences.

Consequence #1: (The curtain drops) Welcome to TIPLE REPLAY!"

You instantly think that you must have fallen into a time machine and gone back 364 days; it looks like last year's game. Dean continues, "Woodie & Dave, would you please explain this year's game." Woodie takes charge, "Sure Dean! This year the game pieces are tetras and the teams will try ..." Dave then feels the urge to take over, "Woodie, Woodie, Woodie, we are running out of time, let me try to explain the game. Ladies & Gentlemen, Triple Replay is the same as last year's game with a few modifications. Now Woodie, wasn't that easy." Woodie with a puzzled look, "Sure Dave but don't we need to explain the changes." Dave, "You're right Woodie. Here are the changes. Capping the pink vision tetra in the 25 second autonomous mode is worth ONE TETRA IN-HAND AT THE END OF THE MATCH FOR THE HUMAN PLAYERS TO PLACE ANYWHERE THEY WOULD LIKE. Since the stacks are so high, they will be putting this special tetra next to the goal to indicate the goal to be capped. The next change is that there will be not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7, but 8 robots on the field at a time." Woodie chimes in, "Sorry Dave, we are out of time. Everyone will have to read the rules to discover the other changes. Dean, back to you."

Dean is excited, "Wow, I never thought replaying a game could be so exciting. We ARE really trying to help you with your homework but I don't think just giving you the same game will help that much so there must be other consequences. Buckle your seatbelts, here we go

Consequence #2: Teams that have been in FIRST for more than 1 year, i.e. competed in '04, can not start building this year's robot until January 30th UNLESS they start a new team and give their '05 robot and '06 kit to the new team; in this case, they may start building their robot as soon as the '05 robot & '06 kit is given to the new team and the coach of the new team calls FIRST telling us that they have your kit and robot in hand and will be competing. We will ship you another kit as soon as this happens. The new team CAN use your old robot in the competition if they desire. Another way to get your build season sooner is to give your '05 robot to a rookie team and your build season will be moved to January 23rd. Likewise with new teams, rookies can use robots that were given to them by another team.

2nd year teams, i.e. rookies in '05, may start building their robots immediately but can not use their '05 robots in the competition. We do not feel that they have been around long enough to understand my homework.

Finally, we are so gracious that these new teams will only cost $3,000 each and payment is due BY THE VETERAN TEAM by June 1, 2005. In addition, rookie teams will be given a $3,000 credit (assuming the entry is $6,000 again) to use toward their 2nd year entry fee. There are only 333 extra kits so you better start recruiting.

Consequence #3: 2+ year teams (competed in '04) must ship their robot on February 21st and put down THEIR tools on February 24, 2005 BUT may pick up ROOKIE tools at any time. Rookies and 1 year teams will be able to keep their robot until the competition.

Veterans, before you fill up Dave's, Woodie's, and my inboxes, please remember that you have quoted my words, "Life is not fair," to the rookies many times to explain why they will not do as well in the competition. Well, I say to you, Life is not fair.

Consequence #4:" ... (EDITORIAL NOTE ... I have a few more consequences but do not want to bore you with the details ... you probably get the gist by now)

Yes, it's crazy but it might work to dramatically increase the number of students exposed to engineering. To avoid a record-length post, I'll post the pros and cons that I've thought of in another post.

You will not be the first one to call me crazy,
Lucien

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Pros

• More students are exposed to engineering
• More teams in FIRST ... closer to "filling the stadium"
• Another chance to solve the vision challenge
• More time for teams to mentor during the build season
• Rookie teams have a head start on paying for next year's registration fee
• Game Designers get a year off ... kinda
• Field elements are already built
• FIRST has time to concentrate on other things like VIMS & kit parts
• It lets us play the best game (x 10) in FIRST's history
• FIRST makes lots of money to do other things

Cons

• Regionals will be packed with teams and excitement
• We have to play a similar game
• We have to do our homework
• FIRST has to have 300+ kits in inventory

What pros & cons can you think of?,
Lucien

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

i am utterly confused....

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Lucien,

I am sending the paddy wagon ... make that 3 paddy wagons to your house right now.

And I thought you were crazy before that post.

-Paul

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Woah, that's so crazy it just might work!

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Everyone,

Don't listen to Paul. He knows that they are going to do Triple Replay because Woodie told him at the opening ceremonies on Friday. He is just trying to divert attention by calling me crazy.

Paul, CONGRATULATIONS on the WF Award ... it was sooooooo well deserved.

;sdjfao;iu;lk34890723523= NO, NO, NO 02o3ioh;asdfn.,weop9p78 DON'T DRAG ME AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD - I'M ON CD skl;daypoiyhqq;webncvxkjhaq DON'T TAKE ME AWAY 290837h;sda9p8oyhllusdyjklhqlwery

I'm sorry, I have to go now. It seems that 217 nicely cushioned wagons are outside of my home "waiting to take me away." It must have been that Reader's Digest contest that I entered. Wonder what other prizes I won.

Okay, I'm coming ... just let me hit SUBMIT REPLY please,
Lucien

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

No consequence here. That's what we did THIS year :D Of course we spent a lot of time prototyping and designing before then. Actually our drop down "ramps" were the hardest part. Getting them down was easy it was getting them back up that gave us fits.

Doing it over again should prove to be much less of a challenge. Maybe we'll have to design a new gearbox or something to make it interesting. Paul did such a good job with the kit box tranny we didn't bother.

ChrisH

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

I hope with all of my being that Dave doesn't see this thread. :ahh:

Wouldn't this defeat the purpose of Dean's homework, though? We've all heard the "can't lead a horse to water" proverb, and it seems like this is what would result. I can see teams going out and doing whatever it takes to get to their robot and kit as quickly as possible.

The eight robots on the field would just be chaos; something tells me that would make the game almost impossible to strategize for or to play. We had enough issues with three, after all.

I DO love the autonomous idea, though. Considering how impossibly difficult to work with the CMU Cams were - and I know this firsthand - having a much bigger reward for the few teams that could accomplish the feat is more than fair. Of course, having another year of time to learn how to use the cam and to work on autonomous ideas would change that dramatically, but who knows how it would work out?

I think you're crazy too, but that's not always a bad thing...

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Con: There will be much less inspiration.

Students will have ready access to the solutions to the problem - all they need to do is look at 67, 233, 111, 71, 217/229, 997 and they will know what some great solutions are. Their brains won't hurt cause they didn't need to use them. There will be no transition from "this is impossible!" in week1 to "I know five ways to do this and four of them are easy" in week6. They will miss out on the magic of creating something from nothing.

You could keep the same acronym, but to me, For Information and Replication of Science and Technology just doesn't cut it.

I hope they keep you locked up Lucien :) Maybe just a couple minutes a day to allow you to throw in a new YMTC now and then.....

I was lucky to meet a couple of your teammates in Atlanta, but was not lucky enough to meet you - I hope to some day.

Ken

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

o.. dont you worry.. next years game will be with cubes.. .. circle (balls) last year.. triangles (tetras) this year.. square (cubes) next year

look at their logo guys!

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

they did bins 3 years ago... remember.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

I LIKE - I LIKE IT A LOT ---
Tweak the game just enough to make it different yet the same. Time to work with the camera to maybe figure out how to use it.
As a now 7th year rookie team I like the rookie extra time - I know we can sure use it.
Change a player surface or the location of the endzone - aka the bin game.

I've known Lucien was crazy for years - but who isn't who mentors a FIRST team.

Lucien congrats on your honarble mention --- you guys derserve it immensely.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

I think it would be a great idea, if someone would show me where teams can tap more money out of to start other teams and still keep theres running. A lot of areas rural and city alike have been taped by so many FIRST teams or even just one team that getting additional funding could be a nightmare. I do the the replay a little bit to it would add a whole new element to making a competitive robot.

I think this would be a great game idea for an off season competition with the pink tetra and the 25 second auto mode though.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Really, though, don't we already have something like this? Every year we see imitations of the most successful drivetrains, and every year we see the teams that created those successes pushing the envelope even further. Look at AndyMark and the kitbot. Are the teams that didn't have to come up with their own solution as to how to drive around any less inspired? We can't have it both ways - either better robots lead to better inspiration, or they don't.

Anyway, I think that the idea that the game is the same isn't really central to the whole concept. (The person who's concept it is might disagree.) Imagine being a rookie team next year, and showing up on day 1 with a working drivetrain and arm. You can see up close how someone else screwed up, and how to fix it. A rookie team starts with a year of hardware under their belt, and the help of a more experienced team to move them along. Allowing them to use whatever parts of their mentor team's robot they want to salvage gives them the chance to be competitive, or at least the chance to see what doesn't work. I think it's great.

Another possibility: limiting the build restrictions to teams who won a regional or a robot award last year. Discuss. :)

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Teams shouldn't be required to create new teams (or do other GP things). They should (and most do) do it out of the love for FIRST and engineering in general.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Oh, jeez, I've been sucked into the Wild Idea Zone...

They're cubes, see, but they are made of PVC pipe, 24 inches on a side. Scoring is done by swimming -- oops, that's the 2007 game -- driving up and down ramps to place colored cubes into a horizontal 5x5 grid. You can push the cubes through the grid in either direction, and there is no penalty for pushing another alliances cubes out of the grid.

A tetra in the lowest row of the grid is worth one point, second row is worth 2, etc. The top row, which you will readily see is over eight feet in the air, is worth five points. Bonuses are scored for four or five in a row, vertically, diagonally or horizontally.

I haven't worked out autonomous goals because of this pounding pain in my temples. I'll leave it to the more feverish high schoolers among you.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Which areas are we talking about, exactly?

Michigan and California may be overly saturated, but what about the middle of the United States? Nebraska? What about states like Oregon, that have a handful of teams when compared to other areas?

FIRST can still grow in the U.S. I don't know if it'll be a good thing or not, but it can regardless.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

I like the idea of triple play again, but i dont think some of those rule changes are the best ideas. Why would rookie teams have the advantage? Some rookie teams do outstanding already, they dont need the advantage in build time. When my team was a rookie team, we placed 7th in the Silicon Valley regional, and were not the highest placed rookie team.
Our team already has trouble completing our robot in the allotted build time, as I'm sure other teams do as well. Decreasing this time would just cause more teams to drop out.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

I believe that allowing less build time, but still releasing the game 6 weeks before ship date might be a novel idea. I think that many teams would benefit from a restricted schedule for a week or two after the game comes out. This would give teams time to strategize and design, which some teams probably don't spend enough time on. I like Lucien's idea, but I also see where Ken Patton is coming from. I think that allowing teams to build a robot after seeing what has worked this past year won't decrease inspiration though. I believe that teams would strive for perfection on a design and strategy after seeing what has worked. This may give an advantage to teams that had great robots this past year, but I think the great minds at FIRST could find some way to limit duplicate robots (like a mixup of the motors again or a size and weight limit change :rolleyes:).

There are several great ideas in this thread, but I doubt that we will see FIRST replay a game for a second year.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

A HUGE problem: how do you enforce the rule that vets can't build before Jan 30? Before, all that limited the teams was not knowing the game, which happens to be a giant limitation, but now, who says teams can't start perfecting their robot starting now if they knew that next year would have the same game. It makes no sense and it will never work.

With all due respect, Lucien, this is a terrible idea. Forcing a team to start others will result in a lot of poorly managed teams that probably won't survive for more than a year or two.

Money is a giant issue for many teams, for example, our team just now has enough of a financial foothold to start thinking about starting new teams. You just can't start helping others before helping yourself.

Besides, what makes you feel better, creating a team out of sheer love for FIRST or just to be able to start teh build season on time?

my 2 cents.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Gracious professionalism... otherwise, the program has failed.

The idea is interesting although I am fond of the different games each year.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

I am fond of them as well. Although this game is an outstanding game, there will no doubt be an equally outstanding game next year.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

i agree with mike.."Teams shouldn't be required to create new teams (or do other GP things). They should (and most do) do it out of the love for FIRST and engineering in general."

although to win ANY awards you basically have to create FLL teams and such .. something we just didnlt have enuf time and people power to do as a rookie team, and i still am boggled how 1511 did it all!<they definately deserved it//.. because if it wasnlt for them i think team 1596 coulda won the rookie award... . they must all drink red bull and go crazy doing 15 things at once!

.. yes! im glad to hear that the game from 3 years ago was a box type game! that means my predictions will probally be right!!.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

But, but, but, but ... if we just re-play "Tiple Replay" (a little bit of a Freudian slip there, Lucien? :) ) then what in the world will the Game Design Committee do with all that new-found free time between last Monday and January 7, 2006? Since they wouldn't have to come up with a new game, they would have to concentrate on other things - like how to enforce the proposed "no metal on robots" rule.

-dave

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Since I was the one of the soundboards for Lucien when he got this crazy idea, now I'll tell him how I really feel instead of nodding and smiling :yikes: when he presented the idea to me. Just kidding.... I do feel it is a novel concept, one worth debating.

There was a thread earlier that talked about what was more important: winning chairman’s or winning the championship’s. Pretty divided. I remember when I was reading it, I went in thinking that the overwhelming response would be chairman’s, and it really wasn't. Now obviously, the sample set (your chief delphi poster) and responses given can't be considered generous enough to get an accurate representation of the true pulse of every Tom, $@#$@#$@#$@# and Harry FIRSTer. But I think it could indicate something stunning. Some teams (more than we'd probably like to admit) aren't really interested in starting teams. I hate to say it, I really do, but they aren't. I believe it is evident in the data. Lucien wouldn't be suggesting these hare brained ideas if we were getting an abundance of new teams every year. I feel 'forcing' the issue would unfortunately make most teams positions more than clear. They wouldn't like it. And I think it as a lot to do with money.

Personally, I feel growing FIRST has to start with us. I do. But I truly believe that FIRST has to create an susceptible environment. It is becoming increasing harder for veteran teams to keep going, let alone now divert these already strained resources to other teams.
I’m not making excuses, but I’m trying to point out realities. FIRST increases prices and then we get called out for not doing homework. I doubt FIRST is scamming us, but if Dean wanted new teams he waive or highly reduce entry fees or kit fees for rookie teams. In the end, this is about money. Very few teams are rolling in it. I’ve personally seen each extreme, and wow what a difference it can make.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

If FIRST was going to repeat a game they should take JOe Ross' suggestion and repeat the 2004 game with a few rule change (like the red and blue zone bar).

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Even arms this year were similar to last years ... (see pink/233 for an example, anyone who saw them last year will know what i mean )

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Lol
They could start on the year afters game, and make it even better than any before, with 2 years you can get a lot more different i would guess.... maybe some wierd and wonderful thing that no one else will have thought of :o
and no metal? would that include on the electronics, would we have to control our robots through many little hamsters all synchronised and who can understand speech ;)

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

if they make you do all of deans homework...i predict some teams will die....some areas have so many teams how do you just start a new one...really it should be starting new teams in areas that have no teams we know what states those are...

we can keep coming up w/ teams and at the same time lose a lot of great veteran teams because of funding... our team would love to start a new team in our county but funding is an issues...we may later split s.p.a.m. but not this year or next...

the homework is a good idea and all but is it all possible???... his hw is still the best!

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Somebody has way too much time on their hands....

Instead of trying to bill veteran teams for the kits for rookie teams how about having FIRST offer free registration for rookies and reduced registration for teams that are reasonable mentors? I can't see a team scraping and working all year to be left with nothing for their own registration while their rookie proteges play free. That is pretty unrealistic.

For this off season and the next 6 events our team is refitting our older robots to play Triple Play and loaning them to pre-rookies of at least three schools. They get to play for free or a near free cost. We learned this from Baldwin HS who did it last year at our BE event with great success. Other teams in our region are doing this too for the off season and we have a regional development program for new teams (RINOS) in place and working. Any team attending BE with a pre-rookie protege in tow will get in for a much reduced cost and the new guys for free.

No gimmick needed- just planning and hard work. (Thats the breakdown for most)

Before I assign homework to my classes I need to a do a lot of lesson planning and more instruction on how to proceed. Sounds like this homework assignment could use a bit more planning too.

WC
:cool:

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

I personally think re-playing the game would turn out bad in the end.. I'm sure 90% of 1,000 teams would end up haveing a flip out right away and be completely stunned, but after a few days it would really fall into the favor of the good teams from 2005..

I know my team would probably keep the same design, maybe altering how we held the tetras so we could have a faster robot, and work on loading in the auto loader. Not to mention all the teams that copy Team 71's design :ahh: ..

Any rookie that entered in 2006 with a replay of the 2005 game would probably not stand a chance and be discouraged for 2007 at how badly the vetran robots at every regional would beat them (not to say rookies won't have potential.. just playing a game in back to back years would kill anyshot for rookie success).. It's not fair to ask rookie teams going to UTC to possibly face a lineup of robots like HYPER, GaelForce, RAGE, Sie-h20-bots, MAX, GUS, Cybernights, BUZZ, Gael Hawks, Rocketeers, etc.. (very possible that lineup could happen since all those teams were there either in 2004 and/or 2005)..

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Every time I read a post on this thread that only simply talks about the logistics of Triple Replay and how unfeasible they are, is really missing the point of why Lucien created it. In reality, we all know that Triple Replay has no more chance of becoming a reality than calling an "All-in" bet to draw to an inside straight. However, I feel it is an interesting vehicle for discussion -One of which most of us has avoided discussing- Why FIRST is collapsing under it's own weight. Dean wants more teams, but realistically doesn’t have a way to support more teams. Why isn’t nationals open to 1000 teams? Seems to me we can’t support the teams we have. Surely there are more scientists that we could name divisions after. Let me pose this point another way. If the amount of FIRST teams in the world were to double in size next year, would we still only have 400 teams at nationals? Then if not, why don’t we have more teams at nationals anyway?

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

If FIRST were to double in size next year, I think we'd have a dilemma. My math says that there were 1,438 regional slots this year. If the current rate of regional growth of three or four new regionals per year continues, we'd be looking at a total capacity of somewhere around 1,600 teams.

As for why FIRST doesn't have 1,000-team championships, the issue is simply space. Sure, if you cut out the FLL and Vex pits, you can probably squeeze another hundredish pits, but you've still got to give all those additional teams some matches. There's only a few ways around this problem, and none seem that good (add another day to the Championship or shrink divisions, which most likely means eliminating teams because of frequency constraints in the Dome).

Of course, that's just handling teams at events. How FIRST is going to handle distributing that many kits, answer that many questions, find that many volunteers...whoa momma! I tip my hat to any individual or group that can handle that much stuff.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

So why are we campainging so hard to increase its size? Granted, the FIRST experience is the building of the robot. I know and I agree. However, it is really nice seeing the robot in action on national stage. And I believe that anciallry effect does as much if not more to inspire kids. Countless times, I've seen kids come back from nationals and say (to their own disbelief) "If I'd have only known that's what FIRST is about I'd have taken the build season much more seriously." Or, my favorite, "I finally get it now." And those kids do sooooo much the next year.

From what I just read, it would be very difficult put another 100 teams at Nationals, assuming we could find another scientist to name the division after.
I just don't believe it. Again, it's a question of money and someone's influence over people who have it. I say we take care of the teams we got now, and the rest will fall into place.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

Though California and Michigan do have the most teams, they also have a large population to support these teams. The more important number to look at is population per team, which Art Dutra has compiled here. Michigan is indeed pretty well saturated, but it looks like there's still plenty of room out here in California. This list is useful in figuring out where new teams are needed. (On a side note, I know that there's no shortage of large companies in Minnesota that would gladly sponsor something like this... I can't figure for the life of me why they're at the bottom of the list.)

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

I think the scientist thing is handled; the Vex field was called Da Vinci.

FIRST can add another division in Atlanta. They would do so at the expense of FLL and/or Vex. You've got the channels (five fields with six robots is 30 channels, which is less than the 34 that users can't get to on their own), and there's space in the pits--if you move out Vex or FLL (or cut into the space of the site of the Vex social, which was a space this side of ginormous).

However, you've then got the question of how to resolve that fifth division when it comes to picking a champion. If someone can come up with a fair and equitable way of doing that, I'd love to hear it.

Re: TRIPLE REPLAY ... the consequence for not doing Dean's homework!
 

If that ever happened, I would go mad. I would hate for that to happen. It would be cool if next years competition, uses HOVER ROBOTS!...never know.