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The Ideals of FIRST have Changed...
Disclaimer: I love first if I didn't have to go off to college and leave this all behind. I would do this for another 50 years. I love the opportunity that FIRST has given me, and I hope I can return next year as an Alumni.
Prompt: I feel that FIRST has lost its objectivity. There is no room for the smaller and almost more devoted teams. These teams make up the 75% that don't go to Nationals or has mass funding or really devoted mentors. This thread was written in response to the " when do mentors go too far" and the "Worst call ever..." Teams that can afford more regionals, manpower and special interests, seem to always 'stamp-out' the other teams. Plus FIRST is not about the people, its about the robot and how well it does in competition, because no ones asks your team for advice, if your the last seed on a list; they ask the team first seed. People can give me all the heat they want because I am merely stating the obvious. Teams with the most funding, mentors, and special interests do well and that’s how the program robotics programs continue. But for team like mine, the program is now nothing because we are losing our Head mechanic, head software and hardware, and team president. Remember don't hold anything back. I want to know your real opinion. |
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I watched as my team graduated over the past 4 years people that wouldn't pass high school without the inspiration FIRST gave them let alone go off to college as they all did.
You all know my personal experiences with FIRST. The team I speak of here is a low budget team that worked hard and fits your description, yet still I, from a large team that you described, honor them. I myself have gone through FIRST knowing that its ideals are there. I watch high school students get excited over thinking, science, and engineering. It's a success, and the ideals are there. Come on by to NJ, I promise you the ideals are alive and well on the North East. Never give up hope. The good is out there, and it's still strong. |
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Well just because you are a well funded team does not mean that you are not about the principals of FIRST. Take a walk around the Hall of Fame and look at the hard work and dedication these teams have given to FIRST. They have not changed and their hard work and dedication has directly affected FIRST. Without them FIRST would not be nearly as strong as it is now.
FIRST may have gotten more dynamic but the basic principals are still there if you look close enough. |
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Chris,
You were on a FIRST team next year you are going to college. Mission Accomplished! That was the idea behind FIRST. Look past the robot. Look past your team. Science and technolgy are studies worth devoting your life too. Best advice I can give to you is to let FIRST go for a few years now, dont look back. Whatever it is you are taking in college, plunge into that headfirst put everything you have into it, like you did on the days before the bot shipped, or in the pits during an event Know that with hard work and a spark in your eye you can change the world, maybe not for everyone, but for some people - you can make a difference. There are things to do in college that are WAY more awesome than FIRST - you will see for yourself. You are pointed in the right direction, now run with it! |
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I can sympathize and empathize with your feelings and the situation your team is in. It is where I found myself just after the 2001 season back on The Sea Dawgs (Team 258). My team’s teacher advisor moved to Washington State, and roughly 1/3 of our team graduated as seniors, including myself. I was lucky enough to be able to come back and lead the team 2002-2004 as a college student, and keep the team alive and for the most part competitive on just the money I put into the team from my personal savings, but I have seen many more teams fall. You’d be mistaken if you claimed that 258’s eventual demise was as a result of the big teams squashing the little teams. 258 fell because of an apathetic administration and their disdain for programs other than football or performing arts. Homestead doesn’t have to be one of those schools whose team drops out in situations like this. Ask for assistance on their behalf, or tell them to ask for themselves. There are many other teams in the area who would be more than happy to accept Homestead students onto their team indefinitely, or until there’s enough support at Homestead to sustain a team. If it’s mechanical, electrical, or programming guidance that the team needs, and not recruitment of students then your problem is even easier to solve. There are many former and current mentors on teams all over the country (many in the San Jose Bay Area like myself) who are more than willing to aid any team who asks for their help. Last year alone I mainly mentored 254, but I helped more than 10 teams in California, and gave advice to a few from out of state and even outside of the country. You aren’t alone, Chris. We’re here to help. Please let me know via CD, PM, IM, Email if I can help you out in any way. Good luck. -Bill |
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The title of your post says that FIRST's ideals have changed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought FIRST was about inspiring students. Are the students on these small teams being inspired? I can't speak for other teams, but our team was pretty small this year, only 11 members. Granted, this was our first year, but I saw other rookie teams twice our size.
You say that the larger teams stamp out the small ones, and that the program is nothing since you are losing four important members of your team. If you had members who knew everything they needed to know to complete a FIRST season with no hassles, then the program would be nothing. There would be no need for it anymore. If those members are graduating, then I'm sure younger students will step up and take their places. Maybe the larger teams do have an advantage over the small teams in competitions. But a small team can still inspire its students. Of course the students want to do well, it's part of the fun! But does it really mean you aren't inspired just because people don't come over and ask your team for advice? FIRST is not all about the competitions and how teams place in them. FIRST is about what you learn to get to wherever you got to, whether that be first seed or last. If you learned something, and you were inspired to keep trying, then I say FIRST has succeeded. |
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I built a robot, I learned from it, and now know every square inch of every engineering principal on that robot. I am going to stand by my robot and try to compete as hard as I can as a testament of sorts to my efforts and knowledge over a rigorous 6 weeks in the beginning of each new year while in High School. Yes, it is a competition based robotic attraction, its not a bunch of classroom learning sessions. The people are really what it is about... some of the time through the robot.
I speak as a driver and builder. I devote all of my time to these things, these things changed me, through a robot that I built. I cannot speak for everyone in FIRST because I am just one person who does X things in a plethora of various activities, BUT Last time I checked, fund raising requires person to person interactions, character building. The last time I checked, the design of a website was supposed to appeal to the masses, which requires a webmaster to focus his attempts to communicate his thoughts and visions about a team to the people who may view the site. Those activities aren't about the people?? What I am getting at is every aspect of FIRST that I have ever seen is a benefit to someone. It is a positive "vicious" cycle in which everyone benefits. My team also suffered immense personnel loss this year from last year saying goodbye to our head machinist, head travel official, and last but not least our head adviser...btw. |
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First off, just because you're going to college now doesn't mean you have to cease involvement with FIRST. That defeats the ideals of FIRST. Every person should give back at least as much as they gained from the program, and hopefully much more.
Yes, there are situations which put teams at a competitive disadvantage, but the competition is the tiniest part of what FIRST is about. Dean has flat out said on numerous occasions that the competition is not fair, and it not meant to be. This is just like real life--it isn't fair, and never will be. You don't need to have a large budget and throngs of people to build a successful robot, let alone run a successful team (and when I say 'successful team', I mean that the kids are being inspired). Some of the things teams are able to do with very few resources are absolutely amazing. Like Bill said, there are resources out there. People are willing to help each other, as a result of the ideals of FIRST. Everyone wants to see all the teams at a regional with working robots--even the number one seed. This is one of the reasons that we work with other teams. Why are we on this website? Because we want to help each other, and make FIRST about the people. |
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What I have meant to say is that Teams with great spirit and commitment are usually cut out of the spotlight. I mainly wrote this because I;m graduating and my team is being left with nothing because this was the first year that we have been back since our start in 2001.
I Don't care if our team gets honors or awards, i just want these kids to have fun, but if the program does not survive then whats the point. I mean the kids were inspired at the wrong time, They came to the comp. and said "why didn't you do this?" and the response I had to give them was we did;t have enough (time?, money?, manpower?, enthusiasm? commitment?) and because we couldn't get our team to really see the bigger picture they just started to bail on our efforts and the few that were really dedicated to this project, had to face the burden of the work.(Which was about three Seniors) plus another blow our mentor that started the team will be retiring from our school next year and we will have no program. What i really need is some serious inspiration and some people who think that this is just a joke to realize what they are really doing. Thanks for your quick feedback. |
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About the robot: From here Quote:
-Daniel |
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i wouldn't necessary say it's about how the robot performs in the competition but how much knowledge a student gains from actually physically working on the robot, from design work to building it. it can not work but still a student could walk away with a lot of knowledge.
the people that are in FIRST make it a better program. the mentors in FIRST are some of my heroes in life. i can only wish to be as a great mentor as they have and always will be. FIRST is really about learning truly and will always be that way. it would be great to go to the Championship but it's not always possible. and winning isn't everything. you won already by being in apart of FIRST..it's really an honor to call yourself a FIRSTer former or present so my team has done well over the years but really i don't care that much about the awards. yes i love to see we won them but i care more about the knowledge I've gained. I don't know that many people that can say they can tap on a milling machine. that's just plain cool for me. FIRST is great experience to be apart of I'm just sorry that some people i know aren't there for the full ride. you experienced it you can let go. i know i just can't. there are more things in FIRST that I'm apart of like RCU not just building the robot so that's where my dedication will be going to. I'm headed to college to so I'm not sure how my FIRST involvement will go but I'm glad though I've been apart of FIRST for the past 6 years. |
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A lot of times, a lot of us get feelings like this. But then again when you look back and see what has been possible in your life just because of FIRST, you forget all these. 4 years ago, when I started high school as a freshman, I didn't have a single clue where I was going, what I was going to do. I joined the robotics club at my school and didn't even get the true meaning of FIRST when I first attended Championship. Sophomore year when I went to my 2nd competition at Florida regional and was more interactive with other people in FIRST, I realized that it wasn't just ALL about the robots. It's about US, every single thing that FIRST, mentors, engineers do ... its all for US, so that we can find a better life that is ahead of us. FIRST is the reason I decided to pursue my career in Mechanical Engineering. Just like John V Neun, I have a dream that I want to accomplish. It's all because of FIRST. As far as teams who don't get to go to championship, they have worked as hard as each team has throughout the season. FIRST appreciates every single team who made FIRST grew to 1000 teams now. I am also a senior and going off to college next year. But I will be back to FIRST, because FIRST has given me a life. FIRST and the community welcomes you back to come and join us even when you are attending college. I hope to work with you someday. :) |
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You can also serve FIRST as a volunteer. FIRST always has need of those.
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Team 100 has had members of four different schools on the team at different points. In 2003 we "merged" with a school that couldn't form a team, and for over a year there have been more members from that school than the original. |
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If you want your team to survive, there are many things you could do. Use ChiefDelphi as a resource, I can guarantee you will find many mentors who are willing to help you[Not to forget, past threads. You will find a lot there]. Go find a successful team around your area who is willing to mentor you. Sorry to say, but you might have to start over as a rookie team. You could also sit down with a positive mindset, and create a game plan to make this team survive - I know it's possible, but you're better off getting some help. As Koko Ed said, you could also volunteer at FIRST competitions because FIRST always needs volunteers. I know you're possibly feeling heart broken right now because of the situation at your end, but there is a way, and if you're willing enough, you will find a way out. Good luck and feel free to ask for help.
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and now you have 3 seniors graduating and your (only?) adult mentor is retiring? Is that the situation? The intention of FIRST is for corporations to team up with highschools and form teams. If your team was able to attend events with no corporate sponsors, no engineers? no professionals other than a HS teacher, then yes - you had a very minimal seat-of-the-pants sort of team this year and it will be very difficult to sustain a team like that from year to year. If this is the case, then your school needs to find a corporate sponsor. That is the idea behind FIRST, for HS students to work with engineers and scientist to see what a career in those fields would be like. If you dont have a sponsor, and no engineers, and no technicians..... then I dont know how that is suppose to work, except for the things you can pick up working with other teams in your area. The burden does not fall on FIRST to find sponsors for each team - they do help match up sponsors looking for schools, and verse visa - but the primary responsibily of matching up sponsors and schools falls on the sponsors and the schools. The best advice I can give (if Im not off the track and in the woods by now) is: 1. Set up a parent / student group at your school to look for a corporate sponsor. 2. contact FIRST and see if there are corporations in your area looking to start a 'new' team. If you managed to have a team this year with no sponsorship, my hat is off to you - that is an incredible accomplishment. I think you will find it incredibly difficult to continue in that mode year after year. You need to connect with a company that can supply funds, facilities, equipment and engineers and scientists - the experience your students will have will be totally different. EDITED TO ADD: you need to do this now if you want your school to have a team in 2006. Most companys appropriate their community service funds in january, so you are already 5 months behind in that respect. But it is possible to find corporate sponsorship over the summer, and start up again in the fall. Our team lost its corporate sponsor after the nationals in 1998. One of the parents rallied several other parents, two teachers and a bunch of students to work together to find a new sponsor. We pulled it off, but it was a lot of work. We talked to over 300 potential sponsors, and ended up with two companys, one of which (Gleason) is not only still our primary sponsor (7 years later) but they are also one of the sponsors of the new Rochester (fingerlakes) regional. maybe something better than you can imagine will come of this - you never know! |
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I disagree with the notion that “teams with great spirit and commitment are usually cut out of the spotlight,” but this really isn’t the point that you’re trying to put forward in this thread. You’ve put so much energy into your team, and now that you’re leaving along with other people who have been the cornerstones for your team you’re concerned that the team will fall because the other students who are being left the team were apathetic this past year. I can understand the feelings you have, having faced the same situation when I was a graduating senior. Like I said before, this doesn’t have to be the case. If you really want your fellow schoolmates to continue being able to participate in FIRST, I would strongly suggest getting them in contact with people like Cory or myself. We’re in the area, and we’re very active members of the FIRST community. We can help hook your school and/or your schoolmates up with another team or give them the support they need to continue on with a new faculty member. You’ve got to try to do what you can to keep your team’s head above the water, but if after you’ve given it your all and it still drowns, at least you know you gave it all you could and didn’t throw in the towel with some energy left in your tank. I did this with 258. I’m proud of my hard work trying to hold that team together and I’m proud of everything I did as a member of that team, but I’ve moved past it and put it behind me knowing that I did all I could and then some. Please, Chris, if there are any students who will be at Homestead in 2006 or beyond who would like to participate in FIRST send them my way. I’ll make sure that they end up on a team, and get something out of this wonderful program. Seriously, email or IM/PM me or have them contact me. -Bill |
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The best thing to do when you don't have a sponsor is to start looking for alternate means of funding the team. Right now, team 675's biggest money maker is our LAN partys/all nighters. These can start small. We're just moving past using free demos on live cd's towards hosting our own servers for more modern games. The all nighters also gave the team a lot of extra work time during the build session. (something like 90% of the wiring, and 50-70% of the arm got built that night) It's a struggle, but you definatly feel good about yourself after it's all over. |
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I have to somewhat agree.
I think all of us on the average sized teams or smaller teams see that we kind of get overlooked. We're the teams that have been around 3-4 years now and don't need mentoring or anything, yet other teams that either haven't really taken off yet or rookie teams run towards the same teams we had mentor us as rookies. I mean Team MAX loves haveing people ask us for help and stuff, but just going to compeitions with other awsome teams make us feel overlooked because vetran teams seem to hang out with other vetran teams, and rookie teams always seem to go running to those teams to ask for help and stuff. Those teams in the hall of fame make it seem almost impossible to model our programs after. I think Buzz is the only team close as far as amount of team members that most midsized teams could compare to, but even Buzz has the sponsorship and money behind them to do great things. Most of the teams in FIRST aren't lucky enough to have companies like Xerox, hamilton Sundstand, and Delphi back us up with the money and comitment they give those hall of fame teams. My team was lucky to get 2,500 bucks in sponsors this year, that's it. You really can't compare Team 191 to Team 1071 or Team 175 to Team 1027. All four teams get it done and are regional champions over the years, except you have two teams with money to have fancy gadgets, look great for the visualization award and people to do great stuff in the community for the chairmans award. The other 2 teams aren't the greatest looking robots, have simple design, and bearly have enough kids to build the robot, let alone worry about awards. I know team 1071 is kind of in a situation where winning is everything to us now. We really don't care about the chairman's award because we pretty much concede we can't win it with our team and the compeition we're up against (our location also dosen't help much for community involvment). This year we knew our website wasn't going to be an award winning site, we didn't have a cool looking robot, we didn't have anything special in our design, so if we didn't win the regional we would have just packed up and beat the Hartford traffic because we knew we didn't get any awards. |
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I haven't read all the posts but in response to the first one, all I can say is FIRST has different meaning to different poeple/groups of people. And to me, that is perfectly acceptable.
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There has been talk on the WRRF Forum for the start of a College level FIRST competition, mainly because kids are having a hard time suddenly leaving the FIRST environment. I Don't know that this is legit thread from the chat rooms but i know its been out there. |
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Sure, you can't actually compete in matches, but you can provide something much more valuable-the inspiration that some students might otherwise miss out on. As a college mentor, you can give back all that you learned during your time on the team, and hopefully help some kids out. If we didn't have college mentors in FIRST, a lot of teams would be hurting right now. Where are you planning on going to college? Odds are there's probably a team in the area (Which I'm sure wouldn't mind another experienced mentor) and if there aren't, if there's enough interest you can start a new one, or just volunteer at FIRST events, also another very important position of need. |
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Did you read "when mentors go too far" The reason I started this thread was to combine the "Mentors too far" portion with the changing dynamics of a FIRST robotics team. I Feel that if you graduate, you let the team function on its own and you, yourself enjoy another level of robotics competition, rather than come back with the mindset of '5th' highschool robotics season. Becasue if i had the chance I would still be running the team next year if I wasn't attending college. FIRST is so adictive I feel that this addiction has become more of a quest for personal engineering bliss rather than really trying to ensure that other take the teams in the direction they see fit. if the same person is in the dirvers seat all the time no ones challenges that or tries to lead a team in new direction, in short the team never evolves and everyone loses. |
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The whole “mentors going too far” thing isn’t related to the situation your team is in. The downside to solely student run teams is usually the discontinuity of the team itself. People are engaged in FIRST at different levels, and when some really gung-ho student graduates (on a team without a solid adult foundation) the team has a terrible time recovering from it. There really isn’t a whole lot wrong with coming back as a “5th year high-schooler” mentor as long as you’re committed to trying to become a contributing regular mentor for the team. That’s how I got started mentoring, as one of those “5th year high-schoolers.” You’re mistaken in thinking that everyone loses on teams with longterm support from any individual. I think I can say that every student I’ve worked with since I was a student through my mentoring years so far has learned and had a positive experience in those competition seasons. If you really feel that after you graduate you should have nothing to do with a FIRST team, then why are you so concerned with all of this? There are lots of terrific engineering programs and extracurriculars that you can participate in during your college years. If you’re going to college nearby, I would suggest keeping your studies as your first priority but I’d also suggest mentoring your team again in 2006 if it pulls through. I suspect that since you seem to care so much about your team that you really don’t feel that coming back as a mentor is wrong, but that you’re distraught with the situation and aren’t sure how to deal with it, which is totally understandable. |
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I can see your frustration with the loss of so much. I agree with the others here that the robot is not the all to end all. It is merely the vehicle to a much better place. When this competition loses a team we all suffer in some small way. Even the large teams lose significant team members and mentors it just doesn't show. I don't know what regionals you attended but I can tell you that teams that are doing OK look for and assist other teams that need help. I can count at least ten teams that I knew of who needed serious help in the competitions that I attended. Most of those teams accepted the help and did well, one refused until it was too late. That one team broke my heart because of the stubbornness of just one mentor. If I could get one message out to teams who need help it would be, "ASK!". There is an huge number of mentors and team members who are just waiting to be asked to help. Do you need mechanical help, software, driving or strategy tips? If you need electrical help ask me. If you can't find anyone for those other problems, ask me and I will help you find someone. The biggest fallacy in FIRST is the belief we are just a bunch of different teams. We are ONE BIG TEAM with a lot of sub teams for the purpose of competition. When you need help, we are bound to assist when we can. When your event needs a volunteer, we are there. When the robot breaks, we will help put it back together. When you ask for advice you get it. (sift out the good stuff though) Yes, there are things that aren't perfect in this organization but we get more right than almost any other institution. If we are getting more students into college, we win, if we get more students to lift their heads from the TV games and look outside their own homes, we win. If we get students to see the light, and their grades improve, they quit gangs, they find purpose, or they help someone else, we have won. |
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Chris,
I do not think many people will give you a lot of heat, just ideas. Being on both sides of the coin, a student on a well-funded team and now a mentor on a less then stellar-funded rural college team I hope I can provide a view from both sides. How one feels though is a matter of personal experience. Something that FIRST gave me was the idea of never giving up. The belief that no matter how hard something seems to be, that it only becomes impossible when you believe that it is impossible. I have a friend on a college team who receives only about 7000 a year to keep going on. And every year people make the sacrifice to keep coming back and they always build a competitive robot. Yes I agree, many teams that are larger and better funded have an advantage robot wise, but they also have a helping advantage. 9 times out of 10 it is those teams that are right there always willing to help. I know many of them from the Midwest, and anytime we needed help on 857, we could always find it. In regards to giving up on chairman's, I would say do not give up to anyone. Chairman's is about everything you feel has changed. The teams that have won, both at the regional and national levels have almost always been very deserving of the honor. Now that is not to say there are disagreements, but I still respect those teams that receive the honor. Now if you feel as if you need to shift resources away from chairman's sometimes, everyone needs to make priorities, but never feel as if you need to give up on something like that. Like anything in life, you cannot win if you don't play. If you really believe that the ideals of FIRST have changed, than maybe for you they have. For me, FIRST has changed in many ways, but the one area they have not is in the ideals and purpose of FIRST. |
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"For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology"
Some teams are big, some teams are small, some have nothing, some have it all. Did your team members have a ball? Whether rural or urban, foreign or suburban, one purpose of FIRST (I believe) does lie. Simply put in the acronym; did your team members RECOGNIZE? OK, I can't write poems. My point is that FIRST is about inspiring young people into careers into science and technology. Whether it be an urban wanna-be gangster who's inspired into attending a tech school and becoming a mechanic, to a confused suburban high school girl who's inspired into going into engineering school in a big city, or a wealthy have-it-all A+ student who only does robotics as a resume builder so they can go to an Ivy League school and study to become a doctor. My opinion is that if your FIRST team is spinning off alumni who study/pursue careers in science and technology; don't worry about all the arbitrary stuff. A big well-funded team pushes to win Chairman's because its challenging. A smaller under-funded team pushes for more funding & support because its challenging. A team with a lot of experienced mentors push to build a better robot because its challenging. No matter how big or how small, a team should be pushing their limits, and thats all that matters too. So if your team pushes your limits (in any way) and spins off alumni in science and technology related career paths, your team is fitting to the ideals of FIRST. |
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Wow,
I did respond under "when mentors go to far", but would like to add a couple of comments here as well. From the creator of this thread Quote:
In corporate life, you can't be all "sizzle and no bacon". You have to have an equal mix of marketing backed-up by a quality product; or is it the other way around. Such is real life frustration! I would also like to comment about: Quote:
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Sorry to post again in the same thread, but I think the shear number of posts this thread has gotten in less than 24 hours helps to prove that the ideals and spirit of FIRST are most definately alive and well.
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I found that taking a year off from FIRST helped me realize this and turn my thinking around. Good Luck |
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Chris -
I both agree and disagree with you on several points. I will try to make it brief (which is not my usual fashion ). I believe that the ideals of FIRST have done anything but change. When the founders of FIRST were just beginning to dream about designing a robotics competition, they all had the same ideas in mind - inspire and educate young people to be more aware of science and technology fields. I believe that this is still the most fundamental goal that has guided FIRST to be where it is today. I don't see any evidence of these core values eroding - I believe that FIRST is doing its job when it comes to promoting this ideal. At the rate FIRST is growing, more and more students are being enabled to view science and technology in a positive light. More and more are learning things that they have never even dreamed of knowing before. FIRST is inspiring more and more students to become engineers and scientists - students who would otherwise never have been given the opportunity to explore those careers (I know I am one of them). However, I do see that the issues that you have brought up are becoming more and more of a source of frustration for many FIRST teams. I don't think you meant that the "ideals" of FIRST are changing, so much as you meant that the "methods of growth" FIRST is encouraging teams to use are dis-satisfactory to certain team "types". The "type" of team I think you are talking about is the underfunded, under mentored team which strives to break even at the end of each season. This type of team is much different from say, the "type" of team which has many mentors, a strong corporate sponsorship, and a surplus amount of money at the end of each season. I think that I tend to agree with you that the ones who are struggling to break even DO in fact have a disadvantage to the teams with bountiful resources. Looking at the way my team is now (we are the "type" which struggles every year for money), I see that it is virtually impossible to go around funding new teams (although we can offer mentorship) or initiating the sort of change which requires a large amount of dedicated and knowledgeable individuals. We are certainly not devoid of those types of motivated people - in fact, I would say that we have a very high ratio of those who are willing to throw their heart and soul into FIRST compared to those who have different priorities. However, our problem is that relative to the size of the team (which is quite small), that high ratio means that there are still very few of them. Because we have so few people, it is hard for us to, for example, start 10 lego teams per year. I do think that you have a valid point by bringing up this frustration. It is indeed very hard for small, rural type teams to bring in enough revenue to merely pay for registration fees, let alone begin trying to make broad culture change by initiating new community programs. By no means am I saying it is impossible - take a look at team 103's excellent rural support resources. However, I recognize what you are saying when you mention that there is a problem. I think that FIRST needs to make its program more economical to different demographic areas. If FIRST can make the program more economical, then I believe it will be able to do its job even better; reach the areas that need FIRST the most (poverty-ridden areas), and allow existing teams to expend more money on the culture-change part of the FIRST program. I don't know how exactly FIRST should go about doing this - in fact, I don't have the slightest inkling. However, I do believe that unless FIRST changes something about the economic accessibility of the program, the founders' dream of "a FIRST team in every high school" will not be able to become a reality. As it has been reported already, there are currently not enough resources to support a large amount of FIRST teams in a small geographic area. The FIRST program is a "money-guzzler", as wonderful as it is, and in order for the program to spread, I agree that there needs to be reform in the areas of funding. However, I just want to add one thing... When you say that the large, corporate teams tend to "stamp out" the smaller ones, I would like to disagree. As I have already stated, my team is a very small team. <begin-slightly-shameless-but-hopefully-inspiring-plug> However, even though we too have been underfunded, rural, and small, we have managed to see great successes in our five years of participation. Last year, we won the UTC New England Regional, which is well attended by older, veteran teams, and we were close finalists at the New Jersey Regional. We won the Delphi's "Driving Tomorrow's Technology Award" at BOTH regionals - and we only have the help of one engineer. In Atlanta, we were undefeated in qualifying rounds, set the record of the highest score for the season, 230 points (along with team 45 and 1272, a rookie), and managed to be division finalists (losing to the alliance which eventually went on to win the whole thing). We did incredibly well for having the "small team" disadvantages that you describe! </end slightly-shameless-plug> I believe that your team can do it too. Take any group of individuals, no matter how small, and motivate them ... and you can go on to do great things. Take a group of people and transform them into a team, and you can overcome many of the toughest obstacles. As other have mentioned, in order to become one of the "greats", you must first build a solid foundation of team work and support. This is not easy, and it can take years and years to achieve. But once you do it, the sky is truly the limit. Good luck, -- Jaine ...and oops, that wasn't exactly brief... |
Re: The Ideals of FIRST have Changed...
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The important thing to remember is FIRST is about Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology first (no pun intended, really), and a robotics competition second. Looking through the "Does FIRST give out too many awards" thread, and looking at the current list of awards, there are very few awards focused on the actual competition itself. Out of the list of 20 awards, only 3 or 4 are directly related to the competition structure. The rest have more to do with the functions of the team, from the design/fabrication of the robot, to web design, sportsmanship, spirit, Chairmans projects, Engineering Inspiration, safety, etc. Compare that to some of the awards of years past, such as play of the day, number 1 seed, offensive/defensive match of the day, etc. Just as Woodie and Dean said in the introduction video at each regional- the competition is a celebration of all the hard work put into the build season. Not only in physically building the robot, but the engineers/parent/teachers/mentors putting forth their time and energy to teach their skills and share experience with students. In that sense, it really doesn't matter how much money a team has, or how well a robot does. The only thing that really matters is the understanding and appreciation of the technology and science behind how the robot came to be. Ideally, this would result in students going to college/university to pursue careers in whatever they find themselves enjoying throughout the FIRST experience. It could be mechanical/electrical engineering, business, accounting, or whatever. At the end of the competition season, if the students are pumped up about coming back the next season, or starting some team off-season projects, or about moving on to college, then FIRST has achieved it's ideals. |
Re: The Ideals of FIRST have Changed...
As many have already stated, I really dont think that the "Ideals" of FIRST have changed. FIRST has always been about inspiration and continues to be.
But FIRST has changed in a few other ways. It has become more corporate like. Many threads show how "in the old days" the FIRST community was like a large family... now its more like a business. This often makes it hard for the smaller teams to be heard. Another way that hurts the small teams is that it costs a lot more money. I can remember back in 2000 that there was a team of a father and his two sons who scraped together just enough money to attend nationals (before you had to qualify or rookies couldnt register). They essentially put together a plywood box on a scissor lift with wheels that could lift balls. It was a valient effort, and they were an inspiration to all of us. Where I can agree with the "stamped-out" comment, is that yes, smaller teams can no longer afford to go to several events. Smaller teams cannot afford the people to put together a large scouting system or 10 different crews at the events. Smaller teams dont often have the resources to make a ton of marketing propaganda. But where I disagree, is that smaller teams are still an inspiration to a lot of us. Its the "wow, look at what they accomplished with 1/10 our budget, or half our people..." etc. It inspires us all to be a bit more frugal and perhaps give a little more of ourselves. If we have 10 times the sponsorship, we should strive to accomplish 10 times as much, and part of that should be trying to help out the smaller teams that may need it, or start new teams, etc. Dont lose hope... perhaps your team may not think it is seen, but it is. Someone recognizes the effort you made, even if you dont have the black and clear plastic to prove it. Oh and another thing, you dont have to leave FIRST, I graduated HS in 98, and Clarkson University didnt have a team, so I started one... take your ambitions and your direction and start up a new team! Anyways, I gotta run to our HS awards ceremony :) just my thoughts as usual. |
Re: The Ideals of FIRST have Changed...
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Re: The Ideals of FIRST have Changed...
I am a member of one of the small teams that have very little and i love i would rather be on a small team than a large one anyday because i think a large team is so impersonal so really get to know your teamates but my has bout 9 student members its great no one focus's on one area everyone does everything and there are alot of things we can't do because we are small we can't raise money we can't do an automous cause we don't have the kind of man power needed for that but i am learning C right now an anmation is out of the question we had 1 student do the whole thing and that was the first time using the program we also have few tools we cut with hax saws drill with hand drills we consider it a huge treat for someone to bring a drill press or a electric saw we even lost our engineer last year but we still did great at our regionals 4th seed 3rd pick and our seed finished in the quarter's i love my team i'm so glad my school has a team i don't know where my life would be without FIRST
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Re: The Ideals of FIRST have Changed...
you know their are some interesting ideas in this thread but i got to disagree with a couple of parts. our team is losing almost every aspect of leadership this year to kids going to college, and yet i think well be stronger next year. Not because they are bad leaders but because of the determination of the new people and what our leaders passed on. and while strong sponsorship is NICE we do really well and we don't normally have any money until after we build our robot (god i hope our sponsors don't read this but if they did they would know that what I'm really trying to say is we love them). In fact while there are some real flashy bots i think the judges also look at what the team has actually worked with. i saw some newbie teams with some kick *rear* bots. and as to the mentors we have found sometimes having lots of mentors or experienced ones can be a bad thing (they tend to turn down kids ideas on the basis of their knowledge and forget that teams should really be an expression of the students creativity not the mentors). I'm personally doing allot of our electrical experimenting for next year on my personal time with my own money ouch. overall i think FIRST still holds true to much of its principles (even if its scoring system doesn't). next championship take a look around you see kids sharing (or sneakily trying to discover) new ideas. you don't even need to look there look right here. the idea behind FIRST is not to win or even build cool bots the point is to give an environment where kids can learn and express themselves in ways not normally possible to them (ohh yeah and the pizza). every team has the chance too excel even if they don't have access to a water jet or obscene amounts of cash. they idea is that people have the chance to grow each year. if your leaders are truly teaching anything too the people they leave behind then you should be fine. wow that was long i doubt anyone is even going to read this far so I'm going to end it by saying I'm superior too all you so bow before me and worship me (heh bet i get away with that too)
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Re: The Ideals of FIRST have Changed...
mechanicalbrain, I think that was well said. I would agree with most of the points. I can tell you are on the road to becoming a "key" member on these forums. I hope to see more of your posts over the course of the summer. :)
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Re: The Ideals of FIRST have Changed...
Going into my 7th year of being involved in FIRST I think I can say I have experienced allot of different "teams" I came from Team 191. Well funded, huge on Chairmans and awesome at inspiring all the the people involved on the team. I graduated and moved on to Team 229. My first season with them (2003) was a real eye opener for me. I didn't realize how hard it was for teams with no budget, and very few dedicated mentors. But I threw myself into the team and the robot, and after that year I almost quit the program. In high school I never got a chance to see the difficulties that some teams face, and truthfully I'm amazed that so many teams continue to exist year after year because keeping a FIRST team going is really hard work!
So theres my background, but the real point that I want to make in this post is that success is measured very differently on each team. So yes, maybe some of the smaller, less funded teams in FIRST aren't winning regionals and awards every year. But maybe thats not what they consider success. If you were to ask me why this season was so successful for Team 229, my first answer would be that FOUR of our graduating seniors got FIRST scholarships for college (a big improvement on the zero from last season). Maybe thats just the mentor in me talking but I really am extremely proud of them! This season we lost 2 key college mentors, and next year myself and most of our leadership will be graduating. Am I scared that my team is going to go down the tubes? YES but the only thing I can do is try to inspire more people to step up and keep it going. Anyways, after all this rambling, have the FIRST ideals changed? No. Were they ever the same for all teams? Probably Not. But we all just have to do what we can and are willing to, to keep our teams going. |
Re: The Ideals of FIRST have Changed...
see thats what i kind of don't encourage. while i love mentors i like watching them take a hands off approach. mentors should be able to say "if i wasn't here my team would be fine" and it should be true. finally being junior and leader of electronics finally gives me some sway and one of the things I'm pushing for is a teaching workshop where all the group leaders basically explain everything they do which is good because if we cant show people can move along with out us it also means that people can switch in if a group needs extra help. i don't know how it works in the other teams but i see some great ideas kids create that never make it because a mentor has a great idea he wants to do. in allot of these cases kids who would be innovative leaders end up just putting together a mentors idea. some people here may do it with out realizing it. mentors ask yourself are you a guiding, driving, or helping force. if you picked one of the first two then you might be doing a job that would be better put in the kids hands let the kids lead and invent help them to be the best but remember that (this especially applies to returning FIRST people) that in order for kids to grow they have to be given room to grow if not actually using an idea (because not all ideas can be used) still encourage the kid to create more ideas even build a couple that way the kid might be on better ground with his experience and have become stronger from your encouragement. i know this will probably earn me some interesting mails and yes i know it doesn't apply to everyone. i honestly think this will only be valuable depending on the person who reads it. oh yeah i would like to give thanks to sanddrag who i think is a great example of a mentor.
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