Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

Ask anyone on these forums: FIRST is a lot of things. It is based on a pessimistic thesis about American culture put forth by Dean Kamen that challenges otherwise-vegetating high school students who get themselves into trouble and idolize athletes, to instead embrace the arguably more important engineering, manufacturing, science, and computer science world. It provides valuable corporate partnerships, and elicits a by-product of making young people and corporations more responsible about the future; indeed, these partnerships are the focus of the Chairman’s Award, an arbitrary standard which is said to exemplify the ideals upon which FIRST was created. Last but not least, it teaches valuable personal and cognitive skills that range from leadership, to problem-solving, to artistry. Those of us who have been around some time know better than to think all of these ideals were realized fully to begin with. This of course means simply that the mission of FIRST is evolving as it expands to never-dreamed-of levels and as new opportunities and challenges present themselves. It's still chiefly a robotics competition, but in the process of competing, a lot of good things happen. Certainly it’s not a bad thing to admit this evolution of goals I just described exists, and FIRST’s upper administration has obviously taken note; 2004’s Chairman’s Award for example, showed that FIRST was willing to endorse the brand new concept of multiple-team fabrication alliances. The recent introduction of website awards also recognizes a new niche created. To use another example, FIRST’s constant pressure in the past three years to encourage rookie teams is very clear, not only in Dean’s homework, but in the game itself. But there is another implication of this evolution that I want to talk about: The possibility that FIRST is losing some of its efficacy to reward high school students by flooding them with recognition because of the pressures placed on it that I outlined above.

We’re only coming up with more awards each year, and I think we might be getting to the point of having too many. Of course, we all love recognition. I’m proud that my efforts contributed to my team’s winning regional awards such as being a Finalist and a Champion, the Chairman’s Award, Johnson & Johnson Sportsmanship Award, and of course, the Website Award (you can refer to my Who Am I picture if you think I’m exaggerating about my thoughts on that). Yes, I like recognition for sure, but only if it’s truly deserved. In elementary school, stickers on math tests and red or blue ribbons to signify my track and field dominance were always welcome. When I played sports (the crutches situation isn’t helping nowadays), a cheap plastic trophy that said my team won was something I was pretty cool with. But then at school there were always people that gave out green “participation” ribbons and put stickers on every math test. I won’t lie, I was a pretty smart kid in those days, and the ‘everyone gets a reward’ mentality didn’t go over well with me even then; this was reaffirmed by my getting at least one trophy in softball and soccer every year whether my team won or not.

If you’re smart too, you’re already seeing parallels with FIRST. I was surprised to find out in my second year on the team that FIRST gave out participation medals. Participation. Medals. It goes without saying that I didn’t pick one up for myself. Perhaps it’s a personal failing in me to ridicule the phrase “everybody wins.” I doubt it though; I think FIRST benefits everyone that makes a real effort, but to say that we are all winners, and then back that ridiculous assertion up with medals and awards I find to be one of two things: delusional or condescending. When I see a medal, I think "award," and though you might not make the same connection, I think most high school students are old enough to see the condescension and old enough to be motivated by not getting the prize they were striving and competing for. If the FRC is supposed to treat high school students as adults and prepare them for the adult world, then why did I feel like I was in T-ball when the awards were handed out? Why does it seem they aren't being given enough credit? And if the ‘C’ in FRC stands for ‘Competition,’ why are we making it a big group hug where everyone wins something? Gracious Professionalism is a credo of respect, and is among the ultimate goals of FIRST, but it is not an excuse for us to forget that competition is a healthy thing. Very few would argue against this point, and it’s my belief that FIRST has unwittingly taken away from competition by trying to make everybody happy.

Anyway, let’s take a look objectively at the awards FIRST gives out to teams (i.e. not including individual awards) every year at all thirty regionals:

• DaimlerChrysler Team Spirit
• Delphi “Driving Tomorrow’s Technology”
• General Motors Industrial Design
• Highest Rookie Seed
• Imagery
• Johnson & Johnson Sportsmanship
• Judges’
• Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers Entrepreneurship
• RadioShack Innovation in Control
• Autodesk Visualization
• Rookie All Star
• Rookie Inspiration
• Safety Award
• XEROX Creativity
• Web Site
• Motorola Quality
• Finalist
• Engineering Inspiration
• Winner
• Chairman’s

</objectivity>

I’m not going to weigh the awards’ usefulness directly; it’s not going to accomplish anything and it’s disrespectful to those who’ve won them. But that’s a pretty hefty list, and might in part explain why I’ve seen entire teams leave during the awards ceremonies (of which there need to be two at regionals). For those of you that aren’t so good at counting and aren’t wearing sandals, that’s twenty awards. By comparison, the Waterloo Regional had twenty-four teams this year. Since, like I said, I hold awards in a high regard, I find our being flooded with awards takes away from their overall value. I want an award to say “you’re the best at _____,” but in situations (i.e. small regionals) where more than half of teams get awards for most anything and a small minority are left out, not only do the winners think less of their prizes, but the few that didn’t win feel worse.

Like I noted before, all the great skills and virtues associated with the FIRST competition are a natural by-product, but FIRST increasingly makes the process of acquiring these skills unnatural and artificial by rewarding values like team spirit with an award. FIRST is a lot of things, but when it comes down to its roots, it's a robotics competition, that should reach its societal goals passively. Ultimately, something like Engineering Inspiration and Chairman's Awards reward teams for exemplifying these ideals with a resounding "You get it!"

Now, eight of these awards have some corporation’s name on them. Were they all really needed from a competitive perspective, or are the new pressures placed on FIRST’s goals being addressed simply by introducing new awards? Do some of these awards exist at every regional perhaps only at the insistence of these corporations? You decide whether they are appropriate, if we really need them. Let’s say DaimlerChrysler just increased its sponsorship and it’s decided by FIRST to name an award after them. Of course, DaimlerChrysler doesn’t stand for “Team Spirit” any more than the next company, but one of FIRST’s evolved goals is to step up the enthusiasm in the stands for onlookers. It is expanding after all. Instead of having the Judges reward outstanding spirit when it’s really deserved and only when needed, an award is institutionalized in every regional. To compound this situation, I know for a fact that it’s difficult for our esteemed judges to figure out who is most deserving of the Team Spirit, Imagery, Sportsmanship, or Entrepreneurship Awards. It’s not their fault, but it’s still the case. Even if these three values all deserve to be recognized in some tangible way at every regional (which they might), in my experience, I’ve seen many deserving teams overlooked. Let's not dwell on specifics as to why, but let's instead ponder whether we'd be any worse off without some of these awards.

FIRST and its judges have of course realized this problem, and we can see a direct result in the new Chairman’s Award format. I mentioned earlier that it was an arbitrary award. FIRST defines arbitrarily what it wants Chairman’s teams to exemplify, and arbitrarily makes it the most prestigious award. Recently, FIRST has done well to introduce a Hall of Fame and revise Championship eligibility rules around this award. This legitimizes it, but it was also recently decided that submissions be small four-page essays because the judges no longer have time to go through all the submissions thoroughly. It is in fact very difficult to argue that as much time is spend by judges on the most prestigious award as was once the case. Indeed, when my team won at the inaugural Canadian Regional, we had a committee to talk about us and our submission in detail, in addition to our pits advertising our exploits, in addition to our submission being a professional-looking video. We put in a lot of effort because we were supposed to, and were rewarded accordingly. It’s a well-known fact that judges have the toughest job of anyone at a regional (we say it all the time too). But nowadays, the poor men and women in blue are spread too thin.

Furthermore, three of the above awards apply to rookie teams; this is an obvious ploy to capitalize on the rapid growth of FIRST and its need to keep everyone interested (just as the Spirit Award recognizes enthusiasm in the pits and stands). And it makes little sense; I wonder what would have happened if the Waterloo Regional had only one rookie this year. It would be kind of funny if their robot didn’t work and they loathed other teams, yet they got all three awards. Now I'm at the front of the line to help rookies, and I admire their courage, but that doesn't change the fact that there are three rookie awards. And what if all the websites sucked, or at the very least all scored below 80? This brings up the fact that FIRST gives out Website Excellence Awards, as if 30 Website Awards wasn’t enough. Again, I reiterate: if everyone is rewarded, it takes away from the integrity of every award.

Now let’s finish off with a disclaimer and some clarifications: I am not in any way asking FIRST to take any action about this. I don’t think they should backtrack at this point anyway but that doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t point out what I believe is a bad thing. Perhaps this is where the expansion of awards should end. I don’t believe there was a new award this year, which is good. I think it's getting to be too much. Come to think of it, I’m stating a load of subjective criticisms here that really mean whatever you want to take them as. Some people might take something I’ve said personally. To be perfectly honest, I don’t really care if you do, but if you do, you’ve probably completely missed the point of this post. Before we go, let’s step back and imagine our own team winning one of five regional awards, rather than one of twenty or more. Everyone stands up and genuinely claps for us, instead of progressing to keep the beat of "All Star" by Smash Mouth (terrible song). Nice thought, isn’t it?

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

My opinion? Every single FIRST participant works his/her posterior off and each deserves recognition. My opinion? The more awards the better. Each celebrates a different aspect of the team and its excellence. The fantastic thing about this program, in my mind at least, is all of the positives associated with it. The kids are never put down, but rather praised for their hard work and dedication.

So I say, long live each and every award that celebrates the specialness of each team and of each student. Some may say that participation medals baby students. I say that they reward a job well done.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

The awards celebrate a different aspect of the competition. They dont have multiple awards for the same thing (aside of regional champion/finalist that is, but since that's an alliance, that doesnt matter). The website award and the industrial quality award celebrate two totally different aspects of FIRST. The only awards I can see you saying that for would be the rookie awards, but that is usually the only award most of the rookies even have a shot at.

And most regionals, DO have 2 award ceremonies (Friday night and saturday night). Plus, many regionals now have 50-60 teams attend each year, which makes the amount of award winners (26) (and only 23 of those are eligible for all competitiors) not a huge portion, especially considering 2 or 3 teams usually take home multiple awards.
And about "that pessimistic view" of Kamen's, his solution is working. Of the 2004 fall semester at VCU, 1 in every 3 engineering students was involved on a FIRST team during high school. So, Mr. Kamen most likely had some portion of his view be proved correct, as his efforts obviously have inspired.
And now, there have been several awards that no longer exist. You dont see "#1 seed", "play of the day", "featherwieght in the finals", or offensive/defensive "match of the day" awards any more.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I'm with Beth too, more awards are better. Look at the number of teams at your given regional we'll say 50. None of these awards particularly overlap each other, they look at the different aspects of teams and their robots. Yes it would help if they could more rigidly define some of them (like Motorolla Quality vs. Xerox Creativity)

But you could also look at this from the perspective that these are all the contributing factor to the Chairman's award, each one of the other awards are standouts in their own category.

Two more quick points
-Awards motivate people to do better, its a proven fact
-All the companies pay money for these, and the more money put into First, the better it will be for all of us.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I understand how you feel. However, I think that each of these awards is meant to enforce a team behavior that went right.

Perhaps the more appropriate correction would be to change the format of awards presentation.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Let's suppose for a moment that no team got more than one award. There are just over 1000 teams. Depending on how you look at it, there are just over (20 awards times thirty regionals equals) 600 awards. This doesn't include personal awards, Website Excellence, and so on.

A good point. Now let's keep it up. :)

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

But we all know that each team doesn't win only one award, which means that a significantly smaller amount of teams are receiving awards than you show.

I think each award is for something that specifically applies to FIRST, and should be recognized as such.

I think it's borderline ridiculous to say that the Chairmans Award was "arbitrarily" made the greatest honor. It wasn't arbitrary. The Chairmans Award is everything that FIRST stands for. It recognizes the team that does the best job of spreading the message of FIRST to it's team, other teams, and community. I do not understand how this can be considered arbitrary, at all.

The competition is the means to an end. FIRST doesn't want this to be like professional sports, they want it to be the way it is. The more teams that can win awards, the better. Just because you're at a small regional doesn't mean that a team isn't deserving of the award they received.

I also don't think that the amount of awards in any way degrades the value of the winner's awards.

$0.02

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

The problem would be that there's an awful lot of veteran teams running around to multiple regionals sweeping up an awful lot of awards. My team picked up 5 awards. 118 picked up 7. 254 picked up 8. Despite there being an awful lot of awards out there, there's very few teams actually winning them. And I'm certain there's a derth of rookie, 1, and 2 year teams winning them. I think the large number of awards is mostly to give less veteran teams a chance of winning them so they can feel they've accomplished something.

My high school FIRST experience was on one of these teams, and it gets kind of discouraging to work your butt off and still come away with nothing. You have fun, and you have a good experience, but you're still kinda bummed. I imagine it must really wear on teams without fancy machine shops and corporate sponsors that slug it out and come back year after year on sheer determination.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Two comments:
A society gets what it celebrates. The goal of FIRST is not to have cool robots; that's just a means to the true end of making science and technology cool. If your position is "FIRST is about robots", then you have valid arguments. The problem is that your position does not match FIRST's position, so it's no wonder that you disagree with the way things are done to further the position.
It seems to me that the submission format was changed to emphasize one simple point: the award recognizes teams that best act in accordance with the desired behavior, not teams that best produce submissions. Rewarding professional-looking videos would promote professional-looking videos, whereas the goal is to promote school-industry partnerships, community outreach, graciousness, professionalism, and the general growth of FIRST's mission.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I actually wish FIRST would bring back some of the old awards they cancelled.
They're fun. This is still about fun. Remember that.
Methinks we take ourselves a little too seriously.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

This is very hard for me to decide on. Yes I do believe there are too many awards, but at the same time, I step back and realize that each team did deserve the award they got. This makes the decision very tough. If you can keep most of the people happy then why not. Sometimes I do wonder about the difference in Engineering Inspiration and Chairman's. Overall, I am undecided.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I am with that. Although I was not around when they gave out those awards, I have heard stories after stories and the older awards look very fascinating. I feel that everytime a team takes home an award they feel they have accomplished something and strive to do more. Now, if FIRST is giving out these awards to team's who don't deserve them, then it's definitely not fair. Some team's have the ability and capacity to do things that enables them a higher chance to win an award, while others don't. It's just the way things are.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

there are a number of awards but it's small at times it seems to the amount of teams we have in FIRST. the awards simply point out teams that are doing great things. i know it's hard to choose who gets the award because so many teams deserve an award. so they do try to make it fair with various other awards. this is a hard question to answer...pros and cons all the way out...

it though seems harder every years to get like the chairmans especially for rookie teams competing against veteran teams who have been trying for year to win this award.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

The chairman's award is basd on what you do that year. It isn't cummulative.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Comparing two options:

Limited awards to a select few vs. An abundance of awards to many

I would vote to have the abundance of awards to many. Both sides have positive and negative aspects, but the sheer impact on a greater quantity of people with the "many" option overruns the the higher value of the awards to the "select few".

Andy B.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Rookies aren't even eligible for chairman's. Rookie Inspiration is their equivalent.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

The chairmans award is based upon the continuing of excellence meaning in order to show that then you have to bring up stuff from prior years. It is about more than just one years worth of work. It is for that very reason that rookies can submit but can't win it! So many more things wrong with that statement that I wont go into.....

As far as the awards go the judges award exists to give a team that deserves the award an award even though the categories don't fit. In my opinion if categories don't work make them by increasing the awards. I have never seen a team unhappy because they won an award. So many people put in a lot of hard work and unfortunately aren't always given credit for their work. I think that their are not too many awards.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

It does. Oh well. :) (And we don't even have it that bad...)

Heck yes! They are fun, silly awards. I'm giving one of the students on our team a gallon jug of goldfish crackers this year at our team party - because his nickname is goldfish. The goldfish award. Everyone wins with fun awards.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

If FIRST gets a national silliness award can we please call it the Dave Lavery award?

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I agree. The "play of the day" and similar awards were the only ones to recognize good strategy, none of the current awards do that. Honestly, there are a lot of awards, but I have to agree with Andy, it's better to have more awards for many teams. If you only had a few awards for a few teams, all the other teams would have a hard time making a name for themselves. Plus, having an award under your belt helps teams get more support, which is vital. Kevin also makes a good point, more awards = more happy people per regional.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Seems like it would - a National Creativity (or Quality, or Chairman's) award, of which there is only one, is worth a heck of a lot more than a regional Creativity (or Quality, or Chairman's) award, of which there are many. Similarly, I'd feel more proud of a robot that won a robot award at a large regional than I would of one that won at a small regional, at least in retrospect. At the regional itself, I'd most likely just be pumped. Of course, all I ever go to is small regionals, so I really wouldn't know.

As far as the rest of this issue goes, I'd have to say that I don't think we have too many awards unless we can't figure out what to base the award on. If, when we carefully define the parameters for an award, we discover that there's another award that's awfully close to it, perhaps we should decide to scrap or change one or the other.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Obviously awards won at nationals are going to be more valuable to a team than the same award at a regional.

I meant that if I win xx award at regional xyz, the fact that 20something odd other teams also won an award really wouldn't take away from the fact that I won an award.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I applaud Jonathan for stating his opinion and clearly marking it as such.

Everyone likes to win awards; they validate what you've worked hard for all year. Our media, school systems and sponsors value winning awards. As much as we try to show the true impact of the program on its participants, the culture here in the US (can't speak about other locations) is very focused on winning.

Veteran "have" teams may or may not have an advantage over "have not" teams. But most teams start the same way - with a humble beginning. And most veteran teams are willing to share their knowledge and assets with other teams.

And I think it's wonderful when peer teams give out awards to other teams... we value those as much as the fancy ones from FIRST.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I would like to see an award for mentor that most embraces the "fun" side of the FIRST program at competitions - and I can think of a few mentors who would be in the running! :yikes:

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I dont think FIRST gives out too many awards. I think FIRST relys on judges a little too much though. The judges are very fair people and should be in charge of giving out the majority of awards, but we don't have any awards for play on the field.

This year my team didn't really have anything special on the robot, website was average, we didn't put in for the chairman's award, so it was like we weren't really going to be judged well for anything.

If they had a best defensive robot, best play of the day, etc.. where maybe our peers voted from other teams or the refs could vote on would make the awards more well rounded.

I think every year theres a robot like my team's that just competes extremely well but has nothing special and unfortunatly walks away empty handed. I'd love to see FIRST leave it up to our peers and mentors on other teams to vote on the team they think should get the play of the day, just like in Beantown.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

That would be what the regional champion and finalist awards are...

I would not want to see an award in which team members, or any non judges could vote for. It isn't a good way to get a non biased response.

Referees cannot be counted on to remember specific "plays" by an individual team after witnessing 100 matches.

It's not FIRST's fault you didn't submit for the other awards.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I think that there should be a limit for the amount of awards a team can win per regional. Yes, I understand that some teams deserve 5 or more of those awards at one competition, but after they have won a couple awards. We get it. That team is outstanding. How about another team that did amazing too? I am also glad that teams took themselves out of the running for awards if they had previously won them at a different regional.

Yes, there are a lot of awards for robots. A team may have worked their butts off to come up with a robot for ship date, and then gone to competition, and have it not work. But it has been said over and over. FIRST is not about the robots. It is about the people. And that team learned something along the way. Next year, they will be a lot better off and each team member will take away something important.

I think rookie awards are a necessity. They keep the teams motivated. And even though they start the season thinking they aren’t as good as the veterans, they try their hardest because they think that they still have a chance at an award that the veterans don’t. At the end of the year, they may not get one of those 3 awards, but they know that the next year they won’t have a “special status” for those awards and they know what they have to do in order to win one of the awards all teams are eligible for.

As far as participation medals go, I completely disagree with you. Each team pours their heart and soul into building a robot for this competition. Sure they don’t win. Sure they don’t get any awards. But, they dedicated their time and effort, and whether they realize it or not, FIRST had some sort of impact on them. For some, they now want to go into engineering. For others, they may have made a new friend.
“A ribbon for 10th place. I didn’t know they celebrated mediocrity” – Meet the Fockers
Being involved in FIRST is a extremely hard as it is. It is not a mediocre task. To some teams, winning a regional, is completely out of the question. Yet, they return next year because they know it’s still worth it.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

though i do like the idea that everybody should get recognition for working so hard...i do see the point about there being too many awards (not saying i agree). i understand that some may feel with so many awards they have less meaning. if you know that every single team were to get an award at competition would it mean as much to you? probably not. we all love recognition and we all deserve it. but having so many awards can take away a certain quality to the awards that makes them more special and have more significance.

again i am not saying i agree there are too many awards. i think it's just right. i don't think there should be any more or any less. i am just saying i understand both points of view.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

There are quite a number of teams* which lack machine shops and big sponsors who really enjoy "slugging it out" year after year. I'm pretty certain one of the reasons they do it is for the chance to take home one of the many awards - not necessarily for the award itself, but for the juice it puts back in the team when they get one.

Maybe I haven't been watching closely enough, but it seems to me that those that put the effort into it generally get rewarded eventually. Granted, there is a degree of luck, or of being in the right place at the right time with the right presentation given by the right presenters for some of these judged awards.

There are some problem areas, like giving a regional Volunteer of the Year award to an institution, rather than an individual volunteer, and there are a number of very deserved teams which keep coming up just short of the Chairman's, but I don't think that limiting the number of awards, or the number a team can receive will change that.

* Going off on a tangent: Cybersonics has a machine shop - vintage 1950 or 1960 for the most part (though I suspect the drill press dates from the Civil War). We do not have any big corporate sponsors. Even so, this rural team has earned a large number of awards over the years, and though we did grab the brass ring in 2003, we still bust our tails to earn little ones - it's what we do.

FWIW, in robot manufacturing we have five mentors who are there most of the time - one BSEE and one ASEE - the rest do not have engineering degrees. Even so, we were able to build a very competitive robot this year. I guess it would be nice to have six-figure sponsorship and work with a corporate engineering mentor base, I'm not convinced that it would make 103 a better place for our students to realize FIRST's vision.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I'd like to see more division awards at Championships.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I understand where you are going with the point that there may be too many; however, all of the awards whether they have a corporate name attached to them or not set aside teams who are clearly distinctive in whatever the award criteria describes. By changing the awards, FIRST may have realized the increasing accomplishments each team was achieving, and perhaps tweaked their awards accordingly. As long as teams still value the honor associated with the awards, there is not an excessive amount.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Actually that isnt totally true. The Xerox Creativity Award is given to a team that does something, ANYTHING creatively, and in the award speeches it even mentions strategies. Also, 1033 won a judges award in VCU for strategic innovation. Also, a pure strategy award would be arbitrary and would be totally impossible to come up with a true winner. Every robot is different and they all need specific strategies tailored to them, their alliance partners, and their opponents. There is no "standard" of which you could compare each strategy to. The only things you could possibly compare them to is the strategic opinions and papers that teams like 1033, 116, and 229 produce for themselves and others. And like I said, that is nothing more than their view.
And typically, teams dont win more than 3 awards per regional. And they are usually from totally seperate categories. It is very rare to see a team win two technical awards, or sportsmanship, spirit, and/or imagery, or chairmans and EI. They will typically only take one of each "category" or awards, or broad area of different types of awards. And usually they wont take one from all of them. You might see a team win AVA (animation), Xerox (technical), and a Woody Flowers Award, but you probably wouldnt see a team win Industrial Design, Innovation in Controal, and Driving Tomorrow's Technology. It wouldnt be fair only to recognize a teams most impressive feats if they have the best in each section of the competition. If the team is that good at website, technical robots, on the field competition, sportsmanship, and inspiration, so be it.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I agree with Ed.

Arguing about the number of awards?! I mean c'mon people, don't we have something better to fill our time with?

There are valid points on both side. You can agree with Mr. Lall, and believe we are all just pawns in FIRST's quest for global domination. Or rather, you can defend FIRST until your final breath is gone.

So I guess my outlook on this situation would be one of total disregard. All I know is I have fun building a robot, and I have fun competing with it. If I get an award, I'm happy. If I don't, then too bad. Either way, I'm coming back next year.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Well, I call editorializing on that statement, the value of FIRST is still obvious in Jon's post, albeit with a tone that isn't usually seen on these forums.

Other than that, I am inclined to disagree with my teammate at this point, solely because of the fact that recognition usually breeds continued success, or is at least a motivating factor for some schools. I'll take the example of Team 1558, Albert Campbell Collegiate Institute Robotics (ACCI-DENT!). They essentially had a team of 5 seniors, and their robot came into our shop about two weeks before ship date as nothing more than a kit frame and wheels. They went on to win Highest Rookie Seed at Waterloo. Personally I had always considered there to be a plethora of Rookie awards (Seed, Inspiration, All-Star) but their win prompted more recruitment in their school, where before they had trouble getting interest (the biggest school in Scarborough with 2200+people). At the same time, there were the GM triplets, each of which, no question, had contributed something worthwhile. Two of them won awards, which in my opinion was fair. Giving one team an award over another one of those teams in the triplet set would have been accepted as well, but it served to bring attention to the fact that despite the existence of collaboration, each team is unique and offers different things to FIRST. This point, I feel, illustrates why FIRST should keep the same number of awards they have now. Not only will you have more growth, you will have a slightly diluted field if collaboration continues. But it is important to keep each element separate within that collaborative.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Like others, I see both sides of this one.

In 2001, my team's rookie year, we were thrilled to win the Rookie All-Star award at the Silicon Valley Regional. Then we found out the next day that another team had also won a rookie all-star award at the same regional. And yes, that did cheapen the experience, a little bit. But looking back at it I think overall, it was better for both of our teams to win the award, even it it was the same award twice.

However, there is definitely a balance, and I do feel that FIRST kind of teeters on the edge of too many. Looking at a regional list of awards at a smaller regional, anyone who doesn't understand how much work goes into the competition would probably think, "wow, its really easy to win an award." And of course if every team were to win something, winning something wouldn't mean anything. On the other hand, if only a handful of teams win anything, team attrition will likely go up. Winning awards - or even coming close, or knowing another team that does - definitely helps keep kids involved, which is what its all about. And certainly most teams deserve the awards they get for all the work they put in.

I'm thankful for this thread, and for the responses so far - I started out saying "yeah, for sure there sure are too many awards" - but now I'm not so sure. Maybe the best thing to do would be to change the number of awards based on the size of the regional - that way, it is equally "hard" to win an award at any given regional, and an optimal balance between meaningfulness of awards and number of awards can be more easily reached.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I have been waiting for this thread. :)
R in FIRST is RECOGNITION. In my opinion recognition means awards. Yes, here are other types of recognition, some intrinsic (Jonathan you understand this type, I can tell) but most are external given by peers, judges, supervisors, teachers, etc.

I think we need more awards - specifically an award that celebrates the team that effectively and creatively uses the most parts from the KOP. I'm sure all of the suppliers and sponsors would appreciate their donations being put to use and recognition of the fantastic materials they supply. This might help recognize those "have not" teams who are lean on budget but strong on ingenious solutions with what they are given. NASA could even call it the "Apollo 13" award. It is reminiscent of the days of old when we were only allowed the KOP, +the SPARK credit and limited quantities of acceptable hardware.

In my opinion, FIRST is not devaluing any award, simply recognizing and celebrating all of the things that make me so proud to be a FIRST participant.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

whats the requirements for a participation medal? our team got a box (of medals) given to us at GLR after winning rookie allstar,higehst rookie seed, website excellence. but since we lost in the semi finals.. we didnlt place


i think they were good, as it made all the students really happy to have something to take home, because a trophy stays at school.. so i support participation medals, .. the trophys are the REAL prize tho. and i think their is a good number..

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

This is a great idea, Dave.

(pssst... The rest of you need to listen to Dave. He has been doing this FIRST thing for as long as some of you have been alive. His teams have won countless awards, including National Champions and National Chairmans, I believe.)

There are some long-time FIRSTers who yearn for the ol' "Appollo 13" days of building a FIRST robot (cough, cough, Lavery, cough, cough). This idea not only recognizes teams with less resources than other teams, but it also throws a bone to these old FIRSTers.

Andy B.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

It would seem some of the people here are arguing the other side without properly reading what I had to say. The other side of course, is completely valid and legitimate when founded, but it is not my personal belief that awards be used in the manner they are being used. I should point out it is also not my belief, like some have suggested, that we are all just pawns in FIRST's quest for global domination. However, instead of defending every decision someone in FIRST makes till my last breath, I choose to think for myself.

If FIRST's Championship is the "Superbowl of Smarts," why is the ratio of teams to awards so high? I realize that teams win multiple awards, and despite what some people have suggested, that was the first thing I pointed out when I presented that figure. But for every award in FIRST, there are only 1.5 teams. In the real NFL, there are 32 teams. I guarantee you there aren't 22 team awards. Heck, those poor souls don't even get participation medals for their efforts.

"Well," you might suggest. "They're not babies." Neither are FIRST kids.

For those of you who have trouble with the concept I'm trying to present, it is my belief that FIRST is trying to do too much with its awards -- that is, trying to artificially further its societal goals with awards, rather than reward excellence in its competition. FIRST is of course a grand social experiment in American culture that just uses a (ridiculously fun and enriching) robotics competition as a vehicle to achieve those goals. That's why Dean Kamen says we are here to "change the culture;" he's not just saying that because it sounds cool, he's saying that because the by-product of participating in the FRC is a more well-rounded and enlightened individual. If you think my position is that "FIRST is about robots," you need to go back and read through what I've said. It's simply my position that awards not be used explicitly to that end (the societal goals). For example, we don't need a Team Spirit Award to ensure teams come out with enthusiam about FIRST. If we do, it means that that enthusiasm is not genuine. And it is this, and a less profound impact on award winners, that we risk by artificially trying to further FIRST's goals.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I have many different medals an trophies in my room, some of them I out right won in competition, but some of them are just participation medals. while I do value the ones i won more than the participation medals, I still look back on my old participation medals as a reminder of what i did and all the work I did. If nothing else its always fun to go back a few years after you won something and then look at it and remember all the exciting things you did back in the day. But the people that got all the "extra" awards diffenetly earned them and such, and its always to be congradulated on an award.

Also consider the fact that in each award, you are going up against the ENTIRE field, not just the teams that don't already have an award.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

All teams get the bronze participation medals. If you win the on-field competition you get a silver, and if you win chairmans, a gold.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Actually, I'd be more likely to suggest that "They don't need a participation medal, their six to eight figure salary seems to be a more than adequate substitute."

Personally, I've never kept any of my participation medals, but that's my prerogative. Other people like having a tangible reward. I don't think it this is a bad thing. If it were up to me, I'd stop handing out bronze medals, and instead recognize participating High School students with service pins, much like how FIRST mentors and volunteers are recognized. I think it'd be really cool for all those kids who stayed in FIRST for their entire High School career to get a "4 Year Student Pin". Seems like something people would wear with pride. Just like FIRST volunteer service pins, you would have one for a single year of membership as well. Also, by using the pins instead of medals, you've created a clear line between participation and winning, without demeaning either.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

In the real NFL, 2 teams get awards, the winner and loser of the superbowl. That's 6% of the 32 teams. 16% of teams that make the playoffs (12) get an award.

At the FIRST championship, a maximum of 52 teams get awards, and there are 988 teams total. That's 5%. 15% of teams that make the championship (340) get an award.

Also, 37% of NFL teams make the playoffs and 34% of FIRST teams make the championships.



Perhaps your time would be better spent creating more teams near Waterloo, and convincing other teams to come to Waterloo then complaining about the worthiness of Waterloo's award winners.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

What makes FIRST unique in todays society? Is it the robots? Nope there are lots of robotic competitions. Is it money? Nope we don't get any. Why then is FIRST so successful?

First of all those bronze medals are not for performance but are mementos for what has been accomplished. Visual reminders of what has happened and encouragement for what might happen. It is a reminder to each person that they participated in the greatest and largest (I believe) robotics competition. It is a constant reminder of what they can do when they put their mind to something. Are they winners? Depends on your interpretation. If you believe that a winner is the only one that is at the top after competition ends, then no. However if you believe that a winner is one who tries and succeeds in meeting their goals or one who expands their horizons to become a better person, then yes they7 are winners.

Motivation and rewards are the best way to accomplish goals. This is proven over and over in "The Real World". Salesmen get bonuses, athletes get bonuses, executive also get bonuses. If you go 5 years absent free people get awards, 10 years with a company gets you an award, the list goes on and on. FIRST is trying to reward those who make the effort. Is everything fair and running perfectly? probably not but those things can be fixed. They are still attempting to encourage and promote.

One thing that I have noticed when standing in the line to congratulate the winners is that there are very few people that are not grinning from ear to ear. If they thought that it was such a cheap thrill or meaningless I don't think that this reaction would be seen. People love to be recognized for their efforts. Even those that say they don't, still get a warm and fuzzy when they are thanked or recognized. The awards are there to encourage and promote different areas and companies. Oh yes, companies. These companies give a lot and should get some recognition in return. I have no problem with that. Money doesn't grow on trees yet so we need to harvest it were we can. The water that makes the money grow is recognition.

I love to see teams win awards. I love to see the excitement that it brings to a team and individuals. As far as I am concerned we should keep it up or the sake of the future.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I believe Jonathan was merely using the Waterloo regional as an example to express his ideas and opinions.

Anyway, this is what I have to say.

I agree with Jon that the goals of some of the FIRST awards are more to promote rather than award. The best example I can see is the Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers Award for Entrepreneurship, an award that just doesn't seem to fit the robotics setting. I'm sure FIRST had no real intentions of awarding entrepreneurship in its early years. By creating this award, most likely under the suggestion of Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers after their large sponsorship, teams driven by recognition will work hard and contend for the award and thus satisfying the goal of the award, promoting aspects of entrepreneurship. It may be said that awards like this one create the opportunity to develop the skills necessary to acheive the award(such as animation and the Autodesk Imagery Award), but its ultimate goal would be to promote. Promotion of many "products" such as a future career in business and animation, or the use of a company's software.

These awards may still incidentally be won by well-deserving teams. Teams most likely do not need an award to give them team spirit and have their members dancing on the field to "YMCA", but there are those teams that go the extra mile to compete for the Team Spirit Award.

But, are all of these awards really needed? I would say definitely. Without some of them, the domains they represent would never be explored. Call me materialistic if you will, but the goals of these awards work for me and do make me want to toil and achieve them. No matter what the value of the award is, as long as it's not for participation, last place, or second to last, I probably want it if it was within my reach. If I don't get it? I'll have self-gratification replace its reserved spot on the mantleshelf and it'll suffice for me.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Actually, silver is finalist, winners and Chairman's get gold. I think Engineering Inspiration gets bronze. And yes, the participation medals are also bronze

Regarding one team getting multiple awards, if a team is on more than two award lists, they will likely get a Judges Award. This happened to 330 in Sacramento this year. We had more stickers on our pit sign than most other teams, which (we think) means we were on more award lists. We wound up with one award--Judges. This meant that other teams got more of a chance to get an award.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

EI gets a silver medal.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

My opinion no FIRST does not give out too many awards. Although everyone has brought up very valid points in this discussion. Everyone on these boards know how hard a team works every year on there robots and other things chairmans, Auto desk award, etc. They deserve to get an award for there hard work and commitment to there team. Do I think FIRST has to give out more awards. No I think how things are now are perfectly fine in the award area.

My two cents,
Drew

Go TIggggggeeeerrrsss! :]

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

On the subject of rewarding participation, what Karthik suggested about a pin denoting some level of participation in FIRST through high school is far more sound and profound than cheapening the meaning of medals by making thousands of them; again, I always associate medals with distinction (perhaps that's the fault of athletic competitions like the Olympics, and military awards), and I guess clichéd phrases about how a participation medal somehow does just that, simply don't do it for me.

A four-year service pin on the other hand, is an acheivement, and it says something about you. It also provides students with something to strive for. A participation medal cannot do anything of the sort.

Correct. And those teams reach the playoffs based on a tiered system of how long they were in the league or the awards they got at NFL regionals.

Oh no, wait a second. The NFL doesn't have regionals and NFL teams reach the playoffs based on their standings. This means the NFL doesn't have to deal with the prospect of cutting more trophies than there are teams.

Therefore, your first figure there, 6% of the 32 teams, is the only one even close to analogous to what we're talking about. If you want an analogy about the motivation behind FIRST's awards and the NFL, here's one: The NFL's main concern is to maximize profit. If the NFL did what FIRST is (I hold) doing with its awards, it would reward teams for attendance in their stadiums and highest revenue from ticket sales.

I congratulate Philip on actually reading what I had to say, rather than reading into what I said. I specifically used Waterloo as an example, because it was a regional of 24 teams (which I said). Don't get it twisted, what Joe said suggests my post had an accusatory tone toward Waterloo Award winners, which is patently false. But it does bring into question whether the number of awards per regional is good, considering there will always be small regionals.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

i have some pro and con views on this

PRO: I think that awards can be great, because they push teams to achieve in more ways. I think creating more awards would help to even further expand the FIRST experience

CON: There are some awards that I feel should be done away with. One is the participation medals. A participation medal doesnt really mean much to most people, and we all know that. It's more of an "I didn't do good enough to win anything" award.
Another award I think should be discontinued is the Spirit Award. The intent of this award is well, but it promotes extremism. The team that wins this is usually a team who was chanting through the entire competition and waving things in the air that block the views of people behind them. I'm all for team spirit, but trying to be as obnoxious and loud as possible doesn't seem like spirit to me.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Drawing a comparison between the NFL and FIRST is completely irrelevant. Dean doesn't want FIRST to be anything like professional sports, so how can you possibly associate the two?

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

Dean has to want FIRST to mirror some aspect of the NFL as we know it today. After all, he's looking to create role models (of which there are some in the NFL), get folks excited about science and technology (as the NFL has done with football), and fill up arenas from here to Seattle (which the NFL and other sports do).

It's been said before--sports are fine and good, as long as you've got your priorities in the right order for you.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

I look at it this way. FIRST's goal is to recognize achievments made by teams. When you look at just the science/technology part you have unlimited options. Such as awards for most innovative drive train or arm divice, or even things in depth like most innovative programing method. Then there's the insperation aspect, and again, many options. So does FIRST give out too many awards? I say they don't give out enough, but only becasue they currently don't have the funds to hand out as many as they could.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

To the unnamed mod who fixed the title of this thread, thank you. I usually make fun of people that use "to" instead of "too" because it bugs me too know end.
Cory, what would you propose we compare this competition to? It still is a competition right? If you can produce a better parallel, we'll use it. But you must understand it is neccesary to compare FIRST with something that shares similarities with it in order to illuminate certain aspects of it that may be... well, suspect.

No, FIRST is not the NFL. No FIRST teams don't all get a maximum of one award. Was it not clear to you I understood and acknowledged these facts fully before you chimed in? We should take them for what they are: evidence, not proof.

But back to the sporting comparisons, Dean himself said FIRST was supposed to (among other things) curb the systemic pro sports worship in American culture, because frankly, there are more important things. Do you really think it's strange that we are drawing parallels to the NFL? I needn't remind you we're all part of teams that wear uniforms in large stadiums and compete for an ultimate prize. But if that's not enough to convince you, Dean also refered to FIRST in 2003 as something else quite explicitly:
You suggest that Dean doesn't want FIRST to be anything like professional sports. As Billfred points out, how do you know that?

How do you figure they don't have enough money to cut some more plastic? They already make over a thousand trophies every year. It doesn't cost much more than that.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I would have to stat that more awards, more fun. Because everyone should be recongize for what they did.

I hope that FIRST will create more awards to give out next year.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

An additional thought...
I am packing up my bike for an Olympic Distance Triathlon I am doing in two weeks and thought of another reason to support participant medals -
I am an avid runner, cyclist and swimmer. I will never reach the Olympics, I will never win a major race. I just want to be competitive in my age group. Every race in which I compete I receive a finishers medal, or pin. It is very different than the winner's medals (and super-sized checks.) But I am nonetheless proud of my accomplishment of completing a Marathon, Half-marathon, Century Ride or Triathlon. Run a marathon, or two and walk away empty handed from them and you'll get what I'm saying. The medals I have earned are significant to me and I display them right next to my participant medals and awards my FIRST teams have earned. I will never understate the value of recognition of completion and always celebrate the success of others. It is an enlightening time to watch and learn from those who win and get recognized for their success.

If winning another website award for your great work online is not gratifying, don't submit your URL for the award. I'm sure that there are other teams that work hard and would love the award in their hands. My team won a regional website award in 2003 and we were extremely proud of our accomplishment.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

That's your prerogative. All I'm saying is that "it's not mine, here's why." You should be enormously proud of your run/ride in a marathon, I know I would be. But I just don't believe a medal is the right way to remember what you did. Not for a marathon, and not for FIRST. Whereas I might associate the image of a medal with being "exemplary in one's field," someone else might not. I can't change perceptions, but I know if I were to participate in a marathon every year, I'd want some kind of iconic certificate that not only demonstrates I was a part of it, but also notes my time. That way, I can beat it next year. This not only signifies participation, but rewards trying one's best. This concept is similar in principle to the 4 year pin, but is even better for the application of a marathon. If you don't agree with the irony of the term "participation medal," that's fine, but you must admit awarding medals to the few people that walk instead of run (when they are capable of running) is detrimental if anything. FIRST does this, by the way.

I can be objective about this; I'm actually not sure I believe the Website Award should be included in the regional awards ceremonies, where the students all come down and get trophies for an individual or small-group effort. Indeed, this particular award is not held in a high regard by many. I am most definitely of the opinion the Website Award needs some reform. Does FIRST even need a Website Award? I'm willing to entertain the possibility it doesn't. I was a webmaster before the award even existed and that didn't stop me from taking our site, redesigning it, making it more resourceful, and making it helpful to FIRST teams. Did I put a little extra effort in because there was an award? You bet. But then again, if FIRST introduced the Wal-Mart Best Dancer award next year, teams would stat dancing. I, on the other hand, don't dance.

One more thing:

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

Mr. Lall, I'd like to start out this post by saying that I have a lot of respect for you for not only expressing your opinion, but also for doing so in such an elequent way.

That being said, I disagree with most everything you are saying. You say that you (and I believe the other supporter of the concept was Karthik...) beleive that better than a participation medal would be a 4 year pin. I vehemently disagree with this concept. In fact, I still would not qualify for my 4 year pin as I've been in FIRST for only 3 years. Howerever, I feel that participating in FIRST has been fantastic on me. I know that this season, I distributed the participation medals and my 1-year seniors were so proud that one of them didn't take off his the entire evening. Those medals, while they may not seem like the correct form of reward, mean everything to some people. We worked so hard this year. Those kids were so proud of their achievements.

The way I see it, FIRST participation makes everyone winners, so there's no problem with giving a winner a medal.

I don't know, I just don't like the idea of saying that longevity is a better indicator of FIRST than the effort put forth. Maybe a yearly pin would work well, but I hate the 4 year idea. In 3 years, I feel like I've had more good things happen to me and been more impacted by FIRST than some who were in the program for 4 years that I know.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

Time for a simple question.

If the medals aren't the correct form of reward, than what is? The pins are an alternative, to be sure, but what other choices are out there that would be realistic options?

I know that that wasn't the point of your post; instead, let's consider that a question for everyone who doesn't like the medals as they are now.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

These participation medals don't satisfy me either. What are they congratulating me for? For putting countless and sleepless nights into building a robot, and spending strenuous days on the greatest competition I've experienced when the other guy gets the same medal for coming into the shop every other week for an hour and goes around in the pits looking for give-aways? Everyone gets the medal no matter what they've done, whether they're the ideal and devoted FIRST participant or the guy you never knew was on the team and because of this, the participation medal has no value as an award. I suppose I can keep it to represent what I've done during the past year in robotics, but to me, the robot itself does that. I could also use it to bring back memories when I take it out of an old dusty box twenty years later, but why keep it when it's only worth 5 letters and a few words when I can keep pictures worth a thousand?

An award, may it be a medal, pin, ribbon, certificate, or even if it was words out of someone's mouth, that congratulates me in some specific way, I would value it plenty more than a participation medal. Karthik's four year pin idea is great that way, it's a specific award that commends a feat. Even the driver's pin (although I am not a driver...yet) would be worth more to me than that participation medal. An award for my work in the pits, or time spent during the build season, or during the off-season, or anything similar would be ideal. Of course, how is FIRST going to know I've done all this?

Even words are better. Having someone congratulate me on work well done is, as I said, worth more to me than a participation medal. Meeting Dave Lavery and hearing him commend me for a robot function that I've helped design and create was worth a lot more than any participation medal. Even my self-gratification is better I'd say.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

I agree with Beth. I have been in FIRST for 3 years and though I regret not joining the team in grade 9, there is nothing I can do about it now. However, FIRST affects people in all different ways. For some, it can change their lives, as it definitely has mine and the majority of the frequent posters on CD. But, there are so many other FIRST participants who haven't been affected in this way. And some of these may have been involved for their entire high school career. So while a 4-year pin is a great idea, I don't think it would suit everyone. Quality not quantity. I for sure would be extremely jealous of those who do get the 4 year pin.

And just to be difficult .. what if you spend more than 4 years in high school ??

As much as I love my participation medals, I will agree with this. Operator Badges mean a lot to me and I am so proud to say that for the last two years I have been part of the drive team.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

Should it be a 4-year pin, or an "every year possible" pin. People move in and out of high schools that have the program, rookie teams forms, veteran teams disband. Many people don't get the ability to be a member of a team for 4 years. That would be totally unfair to them for their acheivments not to be recognized as well.

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

we should give awards to all teams that have earned them, and teams whose efforts can be seen. having a lot of awards helps this happen.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

Even a every year possible pin, I don't like. The problem with that is once again for the people that shied away for a year or did a year then came back after taking a year off. These members might be some of the most vital on a team (like team captain...). I like the medals, so even if for whatever reason you only do robotics one year you get a piece of hardware. Sure you will still have pictures and other items, but at least its something from FIRST.

There is no way for FIRST to know how much or little each individual puts in, this seems more of a should teams give out individual awards item, since the other members of the team would know who deserves recognition for the their efforts.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

Actually, Karthik stole my idea :p

I figured pins would be cheaper to produce, and would work in the same way that volunteer pins do now. They recognize you for your involvement, but in no way make it look like it's some kind of award.

It wouldn't have to be a 4 year pin. They could have 1,2,3,4 year pins. They could have 2 and 4 year pins.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

If I'm not mistaken, FIRST volunteers get these types of pins. That's probably where the idea originates... I know I've had this discussion before.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

It seems to me, that it would make the most sense to keep the participation medals (as they are obviously valuble to a number of people), and if participation medals aren't your thing, then just don't take one. I'm fortunate enough to be on a team that generally does fairly well, however 2004 was a rough year for us, and some of the students were clutching those participation medals like their lives depended on it.

As for the awards (which was I think the original topic, and I feel bad posting and contributing only to the tangents), I don't think there's too many. When there are no teams deserving of the awards, then maybe there are too many, but I haven't yet seen a competition where there is no team worthy of any certain award. One of my favorite parts about FIRST is the multi-facetedness (there I go making up words) of the program. There is a place for people of all interests, and limiting the number of awards seems like it would seem like it would put a damper on some of the different aspects of the competition. People who get no recognition tend to get disheartened. I've seen it on my own team (and am working to fix it), and I've seen it here on these forums (the animators come to mind first, but also between the lines in discussions of how to level the playing field, and others of similar nature). The large number of awards is a celebration of the different talents that it takes to create a strong, competitive team.

~Allison

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I haven't gotten thru this whole thread yet, and I'm not gonna pick on any particular FIRST awards, but the Boilermaker Regional did have 5 of those "fun" awards.. play of the day, best offense, defense, etc... Why?? Because a lot of people on these forums were asking to have them back, and so we decided to make it happen.
Granted, they were not given out or recognized by FIRST during normal award ceremonies...but by the planning committee.... and they were voted on by all the teams. Hopefully we can keep up this tradition and perhaps add more award titles. Perhaps other regionals will try to implement it too.

Even if a team is recognized for a "fun" thing, or a "smaller" accomplishment, it still makes it worthwhile and ENCOURAGES them to keep up the hard work, as the teams that won these awards were very excited, surprised, and appreciative.

I think the more awards the better, as long as the judges understand the criteria well and try to spread the wealth. I am one that believes it's not necessary for a team to win 2+ awards at a regional or championships. They may be in the running for 10 awards, but pick what best fits. There is another team just as deserving for the other awards.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

i agree.. cuz..what if your team didnlt win ANY awards, and that participation medal was all you had? wouldn't you fell like crap if your team puts in all those hours and not have ANYTHING to show ?

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

You'd still have the experience that you gained from FIRST. That's more important than anything an award can give you.

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

Wow this is a really interesting thread, and the first time I have had a chance to read it. I like the points from both sides, but I was surprised to not really see this take on it yet:

Lets look at FIRST as a corporation (it really is now). What is the goal of a corporation? To get more customers. How do you do that? Produce a product that everyone wants. Now many may argue that the product is the FIRST teams themselves, and I personally agree. However, look at it from the perspective of these companies that are shelling out thousands upon thousands of dollars to support these teams. There may be individuals in the upper ranks of the corporation that "get" why the company is spending this money. But it is still a corporate world. Corporations still want tangible results. If they poured the money into a product, they often get cash back in the end. We (FIRST Teams) give them nothing but a warm and fuzzy [I will caviot this by saying that there are longer term or outside benefits such as students returning as engineers, or company marketing, but just on a year to year immediate basis its mostly the warm fuzzy]. So what is the absolute easiest way for a team to show its sponsor what it got out of the competition? An award. Teams can bring their trophies back to their sponsor who can then display them in recognition of the teams hard work. Without the trophies and banners, FIRST teams can easily be forgotten about or pushed aside.

Looking at another version of the business side of things, if you look at the big companies, a lot of them participate in programs to better the company (like the Gallup Survey). One of the big things the survey focuses on is how the employees feel about the company, and one of their big things is "Recognition." They even have a question that asks "Were you recognized for doing a good job in the last seven days?" Many companies have small individual awards that supervisors can give at any time for good performance, hard work, or something like that. These awards often come with certificates and either gift certificates or money. Recognition means a lot to a lot of people. Now, not everyone needs physical or even verbal recognition. There are people who just knowing they did something good works for them. But for the rest of us, a little pat on the back, or something that we can hang on our fridge means a lot.

I have a few certificates that I have been given hanging in my office. Does the fact that the guy in the cube across from me has the same award hanging in his cube devalue mine? Heck no! I know the effort that I put in to get mine. There is a story with EVERY award, I know my story, I'm happy my hard work was recognized.

Moving on to some of the smaller notes on individual awards... I could go on and on about why each award is important, but I will just mention two of the ones already mentioned here. The spirit award is not simply for the team that screams the loudest. We learned this when we took the award in Toronto. Yes we cheered, yes we had camo pants, yes we had a great time... but the first thing the judges mentioned was "in the spirit of help the Rochester teams, this team hosted a pre-ship rally." That had nothing to do with how much we cheered. And the Entrepreneurship Award. I think this is a great new award. Most teams try to have a leadership team, or a student handbook, or marketing or such. All fall in the category of business. We lost several students this year because we touted the fact we were going to have a business sub team, and the business got lost in the hustle to do the engineering. The business aspect can be a HUGE part of a FIRST team. This is the side of engineering that doesn't have to do with the robot, but is real to the engineering world. So I am glad they finally brought this to importance in FIRST.

Now, onto the medals... If you don't care about yours, donate it to a team that had more than 25 people and actually wanted it. I have every one of mine since they started giving them out (yikes I think that goes back to 97!). I love every one of them. I will be honest, I don't look at mine as Olympic medals, they don't mean the same to me as the gold one we got for winning Toronto. But to me they are fun mementos of every year I participated. Pins are small and get lost, medals can hang on a wall and look pretty. Maybe medals are FIRST's equivalent of Varsity letters :)

A story to go with the medals. My rookie team's very first competition, the Finger Lakes Regional... My kids walked into this event having NO clue what the magnitude of it was. We scrambled, we fumbled, but our robot did alright. And then we won the rookie all star award!! The team went nuts. The kids wrote an email to everyone that Sunday, they wanted all of us to go to work and school wearing our uniforms (ugh I had already worn mine for three days and spent Sunday sleeping not washing it!) and they all wore their medals to school, and took turns carrying the RAS trophy through their classes. They were thrilled they were excited, and they were proud of both the medals and the trophy.

After our sixth trophy, the kids are desperately trying to get themselves recognized like the sports teams. Each sports team has their own wall or their own trophy case... but ours sit in a box upstairs. We are hoping that the school is proud enough of our team to recognize them like it has their athletes.

These awards mean a lot to a lot of people. Whether they mean something to you is up to you. But it means a lot to the corporations, and it means a lot to the students, and it gives many of us something tangible to set our sights on. I think its great that so many teams can be recognized for so many different things.

I say the awards are great. And I love that the Boilermaker brought back the fun awards and even got the teams involved!! We should all follow that lead.

Just my very long winded thoughts :)

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

Wow, all this is very interesting, and I do see both sides of it all.

I really like Kims view of it, it makes a lot of sense. And I think she is fairly right.

Maybe some teams just get too many awards and dont value them the same as others.

I dont have a lot to say, and speaking after Kims long and amazing opinion it is hard to beat that! lol.

Basically all I want to say is awards or not, just have fun, all I know is when there are awards, it makes you want to push a little harder and increases quality and drive.

-Ashley

Re: Does FIRST give out to many awards? (Opinion)
 

I think we need more awards - specifically an award that celebrates the team that effectively and creatively uses the most parts from the KOP.

I disagree, the kit bot is sub par in my book. I do like the pin idea, though. The major change I would make is the look of the awards themselves. Right now they all look like they are from the same mold (probally are). I think the visual aspect causes many out side FIRST to think all the awards are for the same thing(s).

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

i somewhat i agree, but then again what pushes us more than competittion, if no one cared who won or lost teams wouldn't try as hard, though it is indeed about the 2 golden words of first, gracious professionalism, there is still a desire among teams to push their hardest for bragging rights, and yea it is good to be a gracious professional but that isn't how it is in the real world, yea they are trying trying to improve our out look on how we treat others but basically what being a gracious professinal is, is to be good at losing

if we weren't good at losing there would be alot more insults and lack of attenion towards the winner, we would dispised them rather then going to them for help

and yes even though we don't all win awards we are all still winners, i mean come on not everyhigh school in america has robotics teams, so your getting the chance to work with real engineers and build a ROBOT!!!!

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

after all you know what "they" say:

"Keep your friends close, and your enimies closer"

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

First, I would like to thank all the people for their opinions on this topic, I can tell that it is important to all of you because your opinions are carefully presented.

I have been told this about almost every organization that I have ever been in, but its true, you get out of FIRST what you put into FIRST. FIRST can be whatever you want to make of it. Everyone one wants to be awarded for his or her efforts, and everyone deserves it. In my opinion, I consider my award what I take away from this program, the friends, the knowledge, and the experience.

I was on a team for two years, one of those was the teams rookie year. And the most surprising thing to me was what got me the most motivated to try and make a difference in FIRST. It wasn't the awards and it wasn't the recognition I get from the FIRST community, it was the feeling I got when I told my story to non-FIRST related people. They, although not familiar with the organization, were astounded. Most people wanted to learn more, or wanted to see our robot. This was amazing to me, that a group of 12 high school students, a few teachers, and a group of engineers could affect any random person in such a way.

I realize that was a little off topic, but I guess my real opinion would be that it doesn't matter to me. If your team needs to win awards so that you can gather interest and have a stronger team in the future, than I am for as many awards as possible. If your team has awards, and you don’t even remember why they are all important, than I say fewer awards. My point is, we will have disagreements, and whether 50% of the teams win awards, or only 1%, the award is important, because it recognized what you put in to the FIRST community. Every person commenting on this forum has given to the FIRST community, time, effort, resources, you name it, and it has been contributed.

Basically, awards are important, and the people who receive them deserved them, in fact, you could probably give almost any award, to almost any team, because we all deserve recognition.

~Ben Lauer

Re: Does FIRST give out too many awards? (Opinion)
 

Just a few things here -

For some people, it's easier to put time into their team if they have an attainable goal in mind. Winning an award is not a bad thing, but doing things just to win the award is. Getting a medal in recognition of the hard work and effort you've put into your team, even if it only is a participation medal, is not a bad thing. I have my medals from my four years in FIRST hanging on my wall. I love mementos like these. I didn't do sports in high school, the only other thing I could really get a 'medal' in was orchestra contest. I'm extremely proud of the medals I have; they represent everything myself and all of my other team members have done.

I say keep the medals. Keep the large number of awards. People deserve to be recognized. When a team wins its first award, it is an amazing feeling. I would think you would want more teams to feel this than less teams every season.