No Java for XP
 

I had just heard a report on zdnet that Java support will be terminated on Window's XP.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stor...791052,00.html

They say if you want Java than people will have to download it. But I know a bunch of people on modem connections, who don't care about special features. And they will just skip it. Do you really think web programmers will have to use more Microsoft code than Java? This is just another example of how Microsoft is using its power now that the court case is over.

Dang that is just Incredibly lame. I am sure that will cause quite an upset for webmaster who pages have a lot of java in them.

I have a feeling that many people will be quite upset with xp (for more then just this reason), and Microsoft will release 'XP SE' or something of that sort. It will have surport for java and all that, along with a less annoying registering method.

It really is silly that they would be doing this.

-Andy

Yeah Right
 

Yeah right. It will be a 10000x more annoying registration. What they are doing in XP is that they are making a registration number on your computer. And you need to get on the internet, so secertly the operating system can send the regristration number to the microsoft web site. If you give your system software to another friend and they install it. Than Microsoft will know via the web and they will shut your friends system down. Talk about privacy!!!!!! Thats rediculiculus, it seems like this is just one of several things that Microsoft is going to do, just to get you to buy more of their products. Their making a system that you do not have complete control of.

I am sorry, that is why I never do anything Microsoft, except for Office.

Well, if you give the software to a friend to copy, technically, that's piracy. Take a look at Napster.

All this is more proof that the biggest oxymoron in the world is Microsoft Works. :D

There's a reason Microsoft is not including Java in XP. And that's because Sun told them to. When Sun settled its lawsuit with Microsoft over Microsoft's implementation of Java, Microsoft agreed to only ship products then shipping or in Beta with Java. XP apparently wasn't in Beta then so it doesn't get a copy of Java. It is however possible to download a JVM from Microsoft's website.

thats just not right!
 

I just started building a website, and I am finally starting to use some javascript in it. I keep it small, for stuff like hoverbuttons, etc. but if XP isn't going to support java, then I might have to come up with another splash screen and redo the entire site without java. So that they could click on "for XP users". However, the site is VERY big, and it would take a lot of work to redo it. IS this just a rumor? or will it actually come to be? Becuase I don't want to have to redo my site.

-Hey just reply!

Javascript is totally different than Java. IE will continue to provide javascript.

As a result of the setlement, Microsofte had to include the JVM version 1.1.4. the settlement said nothing about ever upgrading to the newer versions. As a result the JVM that M$ includes is quite old and slow. The latest version is 1.31 and is much better.

...
 

Technically the agreement stated that Micro$oft could use J[ava] V[irtual] M[achine] v1.1.4 for seven years (starting in the year 2000). With this option, Micro$oft could have easily incorporated it within Windows XP and simply prompted its users to upgrade, allowing them to do so if they desired. Microsoft however, decided to stop including Java, as the settlement they reached last year prompted them to create a competitor to java, C#. Read the articles in the links below for more info...

Exclusion of Java Announced (ZDnet)
Micro$oft's Comments. (ZDnet)

WPA Information
 

I just read an article on this whole thing in the Detroit Free Press, so here's my comments on it...being one of the people who ordered the Windows XP Preview, I have somewhat of a unique perspective...First, if you don't want to go on the internet to do it, you don't have to...there is an option to do the WPA (Windows Product Authorization) over the phone. But, it involves reading the person you talk to a 50-character code that shows up on your screen, and then they turn around and give you an 40-something character code to type in to authorize the software. As far as sharing the software and then having the other copies terminated, my understanding is that works through the Automatic product updates system, similar to the one included in Windows ME. Whatever calculations are done to originally determine the WPA code are done again, and sent as a system identifier to the Automatic Updates system. Also, the code that is created on your end is specific to the hardware of that computer, which means that if you did share it with somebody else, you wouldn't be able to use the same 40-character authorization code to authorize the software. Which means you would only be able to use it for X days(still TBD for the release version in October) before it would shut itself down. Curiously enough, this is the same technique that Autodesk uses on products like AutoCad, Inventor, and 3DS MAX to get you to register. Microsoft has also been using it in the 2000 and XP versions of Office. But as far as all that goes, like Eddie said, it would be considered piracy to share the software, just as it is now. Of course, somebody found a way to hack past the Office 2000 authorization system, so I'm guessing it's only a matter of time before somebody does with XP.

So, in a nutshell, here's my take on the whole thing...is it going to make people upset? Definitely (look at this thread for proof.) Is it simply Microsoft "flexing their muscles?" No, they're trying to cut down on the illegal distribution of their software, which they have every right to do. And the way they've decided to do it has been used by other companies in the past, but since all eyes have been on every move Microsoft makes lately, only now has it become an issue.

No Java For XP?
 

Interestingly enough, it seems that this is only for clean installations of XP...here's a quote I found in one of the articles Joel posted...

From the sound of this, upgrades won't wipe out the existing Java support, and my guess is that for the time being, most major OEMs will include at least some version of the JVM for the sole reason that many of the computers being bought today are for people to get out on the Internet with, and until this new technology (Microsoft's .NET) is more widely accepted, they don't want people calling and complaining that they can't do this or that because their computer won't run the Java.

On a side note, as it was mentioned earlier, Microsoft can only distribute an old version of the JVM due to the terms of the settlement they reached with Sun. What is more advantageous from their standpoint, since they are billing XP as "a whole new Windows"...bundling obsolete software from somebody else, or integrating in support for their new software, that competes with that "somebody else?"

I wondering what hapens with the authentication code stuff if you change some of the hardware on your computer. Like change the video card in your computer. Will it think it is a diffrent computer and then shut down windows on the nex t update?

There were issues with things such as this in earlier XP betas, but MS recently announced that they were relaxing what could be done without needing to reauthorize. Keep in mind that Windows will never be totally killed, rather you will just have to contact MS to re-authorize it. I'm sure if someone at MS punches the new code your computer has generated into their system, they can see what the change was. A single change, such as memory or a video card, shouldn't be an issue with them giving the OK to a new authorization code, but if the only thing the same is the hard drive, they might wonder...

I don't know anyone who is excited about XP coming out -- however, in a couple years it will be common to have it. Many computer manufactures already have made contracts with microsoft to ship XP with all systems that they produce.

During this period where socialist Microsoft attempts to release this piece of software, I think that Microsoft will have a period of about a year of increased vulnerability. The public will be more likely than ever to look at other alternatives -- and hopefully a third party (perhaps w/ a linux or unix kernal?) will come out with a realistic alternative to Windows. If not, then Microsoft will gain complete control over the software industry, and they will choose another sector of the economy to start monopolizing -- lets just hope they stay out of Mechanical Engineering :D

Patrick

Third Party Kernals
 

Mac OS X is based on a UNIX kernal called Darwin. This kernal is open source so pro users can manipulate and make better programs with an open source system. There were rumors of Mac OS X on an Intel Chip ( http://www.osxonintel.com/ ), but Apple knows that there G4 chip is 50% faster than even a 1.8 ghz Pentium Processor ( http://www.apple.com/g4/myth/ )

Liniux I think had is bright staring moment, but will not propser because major applications will never allowed their code to be exposed for people to copy and manpulate. Plus the complicated GUI and dull interface.

Mac OS X is now trying to phase in right now. But the phasing in process will take about a year for application makers to re-write the code to take advantage of the new robust system. The same thing will happen to Windows XP. Software, especially games and older software, will have to be re-writen. Hardware may also be affected, especially if the hardware you have is no longer supported by their manufacture. Microsoft even said, that if you machine orginally came with Windows 98 or 95 don't expect it to run on Windows XP.

So, you will probably not see to many Windows XP machines until the later part of next year.

XP Compatibility
 

While it is true that XP is based more on the NT/2000 Kernel than the 9x kernel(grouping ME into this), and NT/2000 has had compatibility issues with some software, Microsoft is making this one of their main focus points, knowing that XP will have more of a home user presence than 2000 did, and making compatibility with existing software, especially games, one of their important goals for the XP release. However, due to the different architecture of the NT/2000/XP kernel, there will be some software that either will have to be rewritten or simply just won't work, mainly those programs that used 9x specific code to work their magic.

As far as the hardware compatibility issue, my understanding as to the "if your machine has 95 or 98 on it, don't automatically assume XP will work" statement is not that they are dropping compatibility for older hardware(note: it's reported that you can use Win2000 drivers with XP if that's all you can get for a device,) but it's rather due to the increased requirements of the XP kernel. Since it's based on NT, this comes as no real surprise, as NT has always needed a more powerful system than 9x. For example, here's the list of requirements for the XP RC1 Preview release:
-Minimum 200Mhz processor, 300Mhz recommended (Intel or AMD recommended)
-64MB RAM Minimum, 128 MB Recommended
-1.5 GB free disk space(maximum, depends on installed options)
-SVGA 800x600 or higher
-CD-ROM or DVD Drive
-Keyboard
-MS Mouse or compatible

Re: Third Party Kernals
 

As far as Linux not having any software, it does, you just aren't looking in the right places. A lot of it is server side (Apache, Oracle, DB2, Notes Backend, among others). There is also a good deal that is enduser (Word Perfect Office, StarOffice/Open Office, Kylix, etc.). Does it have a ways to go? Yep. Will it get there? I give it even odds. Will it ever take over the whole market? Probably not.

As far as OSX goes, yes it's going to be good for Apple in the long run (I think). However, it has managed to annoy a lot of long time Apple users because it is very different from the original Mac.

And as far as the G4 being faster than a P4/Athlon, it all depends on what you're doing. Just remember that a Cray is really good at floating point stuff but a P4 could beat the pants off it in integer math.

Matt who wonders why he's debating this...

Linux's software, is yes mostly on the server side, and there is other software like a basic version of AIM and a few games. But, there will never be the major applications like Adobe or 3d studio max or Maya and a bunch of other brand name apps, because they pay their developers to write the code, and they don't want their code to be copied.

At first you may think that Mac OS X is a big difference from OS 9. But I have played with it @ Comp USA and it just like the OS 9 except for the dock and a couple of other features.

Yes, you are right it depends what applications you use to determine how fast the processors go. In the G4 and the Pentium 4 they both have overclocks to allow them. In the G4 it is called the velocity engine, but I forgot what it is called on a Pentium. But if software is written for those overclocks than the app is much faster like Adobe or Media Cleaner 5. However MHz does not really mean better performance, it is just a segment of performance. You can look that up at http://www.apple.com/g4/myth/

so i can't believe i just wasted like my last 20 minutes here at work reading this thread...

i also can't believe i'm gonna join in and throw down some cents... :)

What Nate says is right on the money, when it comes to compatability, its all about the new NT/2k based kernel. Legacy devices are a pretty big ball and chain to lug around when you're trying to create something new. Microsoft feels this heavily because they are screwed if they break compatability too much. Some think that this an OS change on the scale of DOS6.2 to Win95 but i don't think so, its definitely a lot more gradual than that. The compatability modes are a pretty slick example of the lengths that they are going to to make things work.

And Matt, i disagree. I feel Linux has had its day in the sun and isn't going much farther. And what's happening with Apple is the flip coin to how Microsoft is behaving. Mac OS has been practically unchanged until os9 and when they finally changed the guts, and some complain because the classic stuff isn't there... exact same thing.

anyways, i should go finish that linux webserver and app server...

That MHz doesn't matter was part of my point. And using Apple as a source isn't all that great because they are highly unbiased.

As far as porting of apps to Linux, you bring up Maya, which has a Linux port:
http://www.videosystems.com/2001/03_..._for_linux.htm

And as far as code being copied, I'm not sure what you're talking about. There's no (legal) need to distribute source code with any program you release for Linux. It's just as illegal to distribute copies of software written for Linux as for Windows.

My opinion is that the computer OS monopoly will end in the near future. No one OS will dominant instead there will be several (Windows, MacOS, Linux, maybe some more). Choice is a good thing.

Matt

Open Source
 

Sorry Matt,
I didn't know that Maya was available for Linux (I thought it was only available for NT, Unix, and OS X)

To clarify, Linux is an open source system. So any program made for Linux can have its code modified or copied. Meaning the term "open-source" the system allows its code to be shown. Windows, Mac OS 9, Unix are all closed source system.

This is why applications on Linux are dirt cheap. It is like the drug industry. Prescription drugs are expensive in the US because their are laws protecting the mixture and the dosage of the drug. But in Canada They are much cheaper because similar drugs can be made because there, which is less stricter laws to guard the formula of drugs.

Same with Linux,
Anybody that makes an app on Linux knows that they run the risk of people copying code and calling it their own. It is one of those things that is good for the consumer but bad for business.

Re: Open Source
 

No they don't. In this you are totally and completely wrong. If you want to release an application for Linux, there's nothing making you release the source code. Absolutely nothing at all. There then is no way for anyone to modify it or redistribute it or claim it as their own. This is the exact same way it works on the Windows platform. The source code to Maya and Oracle and WordPerfect Office and DB2 is not released. You can't distribute any of those without the permission of the manufacturer. It works the same way as Windows. I don't know where you got your information from but it's just plain wrong.

Matt