Finally the year?
 

I understand Dave Lavery's team (116) did some experimentation this weekend at IRI involving performance of their robot after being completely saturated in water. Were they trying to get a head start? Could this finally be the year that the annual "underwater competition" rumor becomes a reality?

Re: Finally the year?
 

Yeah, but I think it would be very hard because of the momentum change that you have from air and water. Turning wouldn't be too fun. But maybe there will be water elements?
I would still love to see a water game

Re: Finally the year?
 

Any ideas on whether or not the robots would do something like corral rubber duckies in the water? ;)

Re: Finally the year?
 

Not to crush anyone's hopes, but I don't think Dave would release info about next years game to his team and his team only. But on the other hand, mabey Heidi has some picture she won't post in exchange for information.... :eek:

Re: Finally the year?
 

::Sings::
Well somebody told me...
That we gonna have robots...
which swims under water...
That no one never had...
It's not confidential...
Dave got potential
::Sings::

... do keep in mind that I was working with team 116 and talking to Dave in their pit on friday morning. :rolleyes:

Re: Finally the year?
 

So first we had we had Stair Way to Heaven as a clue, now The Killers? :confused: ;)

Re: Finally the year?
 

I think that it would never happen just because of the electronics. You get a little bit of water in it and you are out for the competition.

Re: Finally the year?
 

^^ agreed

Re: Finally the year?
 

I had the chance to look at team 116's electrical box, it was put together VERY nicely. I am sure there is a way we can prevent water from going inside an electrical box if it is sealed everywhere. Yes there are a lot of problems that will pop up solving the problem, but thats the reason we do engineering for. Apparanty... we can take a look at some underwater vehicle and see how they run their wires.

Its easier to solve a problem when you have a positive attitude about it. :)

Re: Finally the year?
 

Ok, if there is going to be the much anticipated underwater competition I think 2 things would happen.

1.) MAJOR Kit changes, I'd say the major parts that are used will change completely, an example being the Motors, Transmission (no more steel gears) Controller, all will change because of water proofing/leakage potential.

2.) Possible removal of the human player. I work with batteries as a job and Moisture=Awful and Batteries (even non-spillable and sealed) risk the chance of being exposed to water, and thus shorting out and sending a 12 volt current through Little Johnny the HP's body.

Re: Finally the year?
 

okay think about FIRSTs rules. our team was penalized for not touching those triangles your robot is supposed to rest on even though it was completely on top of it! :ahh: aparently it was a safety issue (i remind you our robot was COMPLETELY over top of the traingle). now lets think what possible problem would FIRST have with sticking 12 volt batteries in water. although their are plenty of educational programs that do just this and it is possible i just don't see FIRST letting us do it (not that we cant or that it couldnt be safe).

Re: Finally the year?
 

A six pack of dew to the first taker says there won't be any water, or liquid used as a game "component" next year.

Re: Finally the year?
 

i beat you to the punch cory! look above you.

Re: Finally the year?
 

FIRST wouldn't let teams use the old, non garbage connectors for the battery leads, because a few teams couldn't use them properly, causing a safety hazard, so I don't see a snowball's chance in hell of introducing water to electronics, where a lot more than a few teams will screw up big time, ruining thousands of dollars worth of electronics, and creating very big safety risks.

No matter what FIRST does to ensure safety at a competition, the potential for disaster is unimagineably large when teams are unsupervised at their own facilities.

Re: Finally the year?
 

Cory i know Ive said this before. feel free to criticize and yes you mentioned valid points but please at least try to be helpful with the advice. try to add something positive to a post. as to the robotics using water yes it could be done safely but FIRST would probably worry a bit. i highly recommend you experiment with this although safely as it would be VERY cool to see a underwater robot using FIRST parts. i think my main concern would be the motors unless you can protect them i recommend putting them inside any electrical box and then running flexible shafts out to the actual box.

Re: Finally the year?
 

Here's my take on the subject:

There is no harm in giving a team the opportunity to experiment with liquid substances. There are a million and one engineering careers out there, and a lot of them deal with water because the underwater ecological system as well as the change in planetary structure (e.g., things that cause ocean earthquakes) are important issues.

I personally think Dave was introducing his team to the concept as a matter of introducing and inspiring them to take interest in a possible career.

However, I agree with Cory. There are an incredible amount of safety risks, as well as an incredible amount of competition setup logistics. What happens if something goes wrong? Flood the stadium?

Re: Finally the year?
 

We could have competitions at a pool!

Re: Finally the year?
 

Nobody said that the game had to involve pools of water, just WATER. What if the game had a sort of simulated rain the the middle of the field, and a simple porus ground allowed for the water to be stored underneight the field?

Re: Finally the year?
 

I like JosephM's idea, of a porus surface or a stimulated rain. However, I'm still a bit concerned about the risks that come with that.

Does anybody know if certain facilities don't permit the use of water? Also, I am under the impression that there are large regions in the US with water restrictions (correct me if I'm wrong). Would there be issues with this or would FIRST transport water from place to place?

Re: Finally the year?
 

since this has turned from somebody joking about the indiana weather being, well, indiana weather, into a debate

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ht=water+games

89 posts...see if your view has already been said.

Re: Finally the year?
 

oh the hilarity of life. how about this hovercraft robots. i know its got bad steering but god it would be fun.

Re: Finally the year?
 

FIRST should give us a water game just because you all want it so bad every year and then when it is over they can have fun laughing at a pile of shorted out robots. :D Then I don't think we'd have the water game thread every year again.

Re: Finally the year?
 

i don't know even if FIRST wont let it because of the danger i think most of the teams could do it. i hear allot of people talking about shorting robots but its easier than it seems. i saw a robot built by a 11 year old inside a plastic soda bottle. admittedly it had no control board an turned by flipping switches. the only way it would short is it water came in contact with one of the electric components.

Re: Finally the year?
 

Probably wouldn't be too hard to do a water game. Maybe amphibious robots or robotic boats? However, I see several kit modifications including, but certainly not limited to: Plastic parts instead of metal (plastic is at least water resistant, and it does not rust); Marine style propellers; batteries with their wires already attached (which we need anyway...); and finally, things to dry off the robot with.

Re: Finally the year?
 

Collin Fultz is right. I'll try to bring it back on topic...

So, we've got our song.
We've got the cool education of his team about water robots.
What's the probablity that there's a water game in the future? Shall we discuss based on the evidence? It's like a hint thread...

Re: Finally the year?
 

It took a lot of work to clean and dry this bot, but we did it. And our robot did still run. And here is Dave watching the water drain... note the funny little smile on his face and be afraid... be very afraid...

Heidi

Re: Finally the year?
 

And notice that I am draining the water from the case into a crate. And the crate is blue. And the crate says "balls" on it. And on the sign in the background, you can see the word "brook." And my hair is parted on the left, when everyone knows I usually part it on the right. And you can just make out the number "66."

Clues! They are clues, I tell you! All clues!

...or maybe not. :)

-dave

Re: Finally the year?
 

Uh, Dave, isn't that 56 (Robbe Xtreme from New Jersey)?

Red herrings indeed.

Re: Finally the year?
 

Gee thanks Dave; I was just playing a hunch and was all set to give my team direction for our fall projects. But since you had to go and give it all away, I'll have to keep quiet since your hints spell out EXACTLY what the game will be, and I don't want to give our team an unfair advantage.

Next time I'll just keep my thoughts to myself.

And Billfred, OF COURSE he knows the 66 is really a 56; didn't you pick up on that clue either? Or have you forgotten your LaPlace Transforms already?

Re: Finally the year?
 

Gary, you're talking to a man who took MATH 122 (Calculus for Business Administration and Social Sciences) and MATH 170 (Finite Math). LaPlace Transforms sounds like home renovation to me. ;)

(get it? transforming la place? yeah, I'm awful.)

Re: Finally the year?
 

Oh well, my team also tried it... Coming back from the Black Expo in Indy, it started raingin with our robot in the back of pickup truck :D. Note that I wasn't a part of the we that were there ;). After letting it dry, it was no worse for wear.

Re: Finally the year?
 

Yeah, imagine the demos and outreach evnts with under water robots...

Re: Finally the year?
 

What if we were to have a game where there would be balls filled with water and there would be 2 different sized balls... Nah it would never happen! :rolleyes:

Re: Finally the year?
 

It is 3:30 in the morning and I find myself trying to figure out some clues with Laura 1547. 1)I dont have a life and 2)This is killing me! I want to know whats going on next year sooo bad... only not. I guess we all will learn someday.

And deffinately stuck on what 66 could mean. Haha. Maybe I shud go to bed...

Re: Finally the year?
 

66 = 6 robots on the field (aka 3 v 3 allinaces will stay)

Re: Finally the year?
 

Hell, three kids + mentors in arizona did it, why can't FIRST teams do it?

However, if FIRST wanted an underwater challenge, then they would be have the include a lot of stuff in the kit to make it a little easier, an airtight frame and propulsion systems.

Testing would be an issue too beacuse people probably have to be in the water to handle the robot. Imagine during the beginning of the year when build teams are assigned; Drive, Frame, Electronics, Programming, SCUBA :D.

Re: Finally the year?
 

I think i have an idea on why a water game would never happen. (floating boat robot idea)

It gives an unfair advantage to some teams. How would you test the robot without access to some sort of pool? Around here you couldn't test it in a pond or something similar due to the fact that everything freezes. Teams could spend the entire build season not being able to test anything until perhaps a scrimmage. At that point nothing will work, and the entire six weeks would have been an extreme failure.

Like it was mentioned before there could also be electrical issues. Some teams may not have the resources or the ability to be able to completely waterproof the robot. If there was one small problem the electronics could fail completely, or seriously hurt someone. Think about it, your in the pits and attempting to change the battery, the robot is still wet and now your hands are wet. Enough water drips into the connector to short circuit the battery and your part of the short circuit. I'm not exactly sure of what would happen to at least part of you, but i imagine it would not feel good. My guess is that it would result in some sort of burn.

If the robot were boat like, and had some sort of propeller on the back it would also be a safety hazard. Testing out the controls in the pits could be harmful, they are cramped and someone could easily get hurt by getting into the wrong spot. Or on the field, six weeks of work could easily be destroyed by the similar device.

Also you would need to make it float, which could easily fail if the chassis floats. But after you add arms and other appendages to it it increases the weight of the robot and then causes it to sink. You then spend too much time making the rest of the robot float. Only to find out that it really doesn't work all that well, and needs to be readjusted.

These are just my thoughts on an entirely water type game.

Re: Finally the year?
 

ooooor.... you could stick it in a bathtub. :D plus teams can create their own water tight frames.

Re: Finally the year?
 

How are you going to test an entire field autonomus in a bathtub? How will your drivers learn how to drive it?

Re: Finally the year?
 

im not proposing you could im disputing the statement that you cant test if its water proof. if you really need to test it most, note i say most not all, cities have some place where their is a indoor pool it could be a rec center or YMCA. but the main problem with water systems is you would need to see the robot and you cant do this without a camera to give a 3D view on aspects such as depth.

Re: Finally the year?
 

There is always a swimming pool. :)

Re: Finally the year?
 

That is exacty my point not all teams have access to test the robot. You said it yourself mecanicalbrain, "if you really need to test it most, note i say most not all, cities have some place where their is a indoor pool it could be a rec center or YMCA." There will be plenty of places that dont have a pool for testing purposes. Low budget teams in remote areas should still be given a fair chance at completing the tasks in the game. If they are able to test it, i think that it would be fair.

How would you be sure it works without testing it? If it were not tested how would you know that the bugs were all worked out?

they could indeed test how waterproof it was in a tub, but it may not be the best thing to do. The robot might not fit in the tub, or it may not allow enough water to cover the componets of the robot.

Re: Finally the year?
 

name a city that doesnt have a swiming pool where there is a FIRST team! and i guarentee that any robot that fits regulation sizes can be submersed in a bathtub. most note i say most cities have bathtubs. :D

Re: Finally the year?
 

http://www.google.com/local?hl=en&lr...nG=Search&sc=1
also look up hotels.

Re: Finally the year?
 

See... what you have started Gary?

People have lost their sleep and posting here at midnight. BAD GARY.

The game doesn't come out for another 5 months. Let's go catch onto some sleep before the season comes flying at us.

... Why am I talking about sleep and not worrying about what the game is going to be next year? :rolleyes:

Re: Finally the year?
 

hah i dont NEED sleep! ill sleep when im dead! actually i have a screwy sleeping schedule, i sleep 4AM until 3PM. :yikes:

Re: Finally the year?
 

That's definitely untrue I haven't seen any 5 foot deep bathtubs lately.

A hotel isn't going to let a group of kids run a robot around in a pool guests pay to use.

Re: Finally the year?
 

I have deleted and edited at least one of my posts because it seems obvious that i am not getting my point across. I would like to aplologize if i offended anyone in the process of trying to get my point across.

Re: Finally the year?
 

in answer to the first if we did underwater robots the dimensions would not be 5 ft tall. also you can get premission to use pools for specific times. ive seen crazy things (once saw a boat compitition at a westin. no joke!). also their are plenty of underwater cometitions and people in those compititions manage it. and i doupt anyone was bothered were just being overly literal with our translation. basically i know that if you really needed a large mass of water you would find a way. its one of the great things about FIRST we always find a way.

Re: Finally the year?
 

i bet they rented the use of the pool

Re: Finally the year?
 

I don't think you have offended anyone, you have pointed out the obvious. Many teams might not have the resources to test their underwater robot during the season. All we can do now is wait till January when Dave will finally tell us the game. He does this EVERY YEAR. He gives us few clues and then makes us pull our hair off while he goes through the KKs. :)

Re: Finally the year?
 

yeah but most teams dont have access to something. our team only has a wood shop! we use hacksaws to cut through alluminum! we had to do major saving to get our hands on what little metal tools we have yet some teams have access to welders and forges.

Re: Finally the year?
 

Well...here's my two cents on next year's game.:D

We will have to design and build robots that can lift large crates filled with water and drive them using some kind of ball drive to cross a small "brook" or stream and the field is in a big L where you only need to make a left turn. For the "66", the height limit will be changed to 66", or 5'6".

I don't know.:p...just my two cents...
...I think I might need some sleep...long day.

Re: Finally the year?
 

i still hold with the idea that FIRST is sicking with their logo. we did circles, squares, triangles and now we will move giant FIRST's around. (this is a shared opinion) as to this thread i would like to know how people would manipulate objects underwater!

Re: Finally the year?
 

Anchorage, Alaska.

Re: Finally the year?
 

hey someone right next door! (im in Reston) funny thing i had this exact question for a friend because im going to Alaska later this sumer and aparently heated indoor pools are popular in Alaska.

Re: Finally the year?
 

Oh man... the physics involved... so much to do with that... fluid friction, hydrodynamics, waterproofing... that would be heaven for me.

Anyway, all public high schools have a 12 food swimming pool dont they? And there are like... 10 public high schools within 20 miles of me, so that part is no problem.

Also, lots of teams that do the national underwater robotics competition use IFI controllers. The team that won this year had an IFI controller, in a suitecase. Literally. And those that read that article in WIRED magazine know what else was in the suitcase, to solve their little leak problem. ;)

Re: Finally the year?
 

hehe yeaaaah... ;) if we were to do underwater robots i think i would look for my inspiration with animals like otters (i saw them swim in real life and it was pretty cool) :D

Re: Finally the year?
 

Shouldn't you be utalizing that "free time" comming up with more ideas for the Rah Cha CHa Ruckus?
Back to work, missy!

Re: Finally the year?
 

Perhaps thats what the judges where saying at championships regarding the camera and the gyro being really important in next years game, to the point that it is critical for robot to work. From what I remember he mentioned that next years camera will be much more sophisticated.

My only question is.. does a gyro measure three dimentional space?

Re: Finally the year?
 

But it'd be a great conversation starter to get people talking about FIRST! :D

Re: Finally the year?
 

Every year I've been on here there has been talk about a water based game.
FIRST is about safety first and to make the game absolutely safe the kit would probably become pretty expensive as would other aspect of the game. If there is any chance of any thing going wrong then it just won't happen.
I just think were all

Re: Finally the year?
 

Hmm.. Water isnt safe.. but what about water in different forms? Ice cubes? or something... yeah, dont listen to me, I am just crazy!

Re: Finally the year?
 

Ed's right, we are (to some extent) beating a dead horse.

IF FIRST ever does a water game, we won't know until it's too late (can you say "at kickoff"?). Then we have to put 100 pounds of safety features on the robot, leaving the robot only able to move, if that. Then we're fixing a dead robot if something fails.

Re: Finally the year?
 

In other words : be careful what you wish for 'cause you just might get it.

Re: Finally the year?
 

For people saying you can test in pools, do you really think the local YMCA will let you put your metal robot, which may still have metal shavings on it, which also may have oil on it, into the pool where they teach 5 year olds how to swim? No.

Flat out, no. There may be water elements next year, but I guarantee it will not be in a pool.

Re: Finally the year?
 

the gyro only measures the angular heading of your robot.

Re: Finally the year?
 

the CMU camera was pretty sophisticated! im having trouble thinking of a task that calls on something more! mabye knowing depth!

Re: Finally the year?
 

Perhaps what they might have in the future is a more powerful camera that can be used for auto and also be used for the driver to control the bot underwater.

Re: Finally the year?
 

69 posts and 1150 views - does the expression "beating a dead horse" mean anything to anyone? :yikes: This thread was supposed to be a JOKE :D ; I didn't expect anyone to STILL be debating the merits / consequences of an underwater competition AS WE DO EVERY YEAR in the traditional "What do you think this years game will be" thread. Maybe I should write a white paper about the issue and give a talk at next year's national conference on it.

Will some Administrator please put me out of my misery and close this thread before it takes on a life of its own. I promise to only post real rumors from now on.

Re: Finally the year?
 

it's the off season. we're supposed to think Extra Big, Big and Unrealistic, and take Gary's Sarcastic Jokes seriously. What else do they have us do?

Re: Finally the year?
 

I don't know Conor, but if I was so have a say on this, I would just blame it all on Gary. ;)

Re: Finally the year?
 

IF theres water in the game, maybe there will just be a small VERY SHALLOW stream for us to cross for extra points.

Also, i cant believe rookies haven't been brought up in this thread -- imagine a rookie team waterproofing their robot as well as having the struggle of just building it!

Re: Finally the year?
 

I agree. If there is water in the 2006 game, I will blame it on Gary. :D

-dave

Re: Finally the year?
 

Aha - finally something new to debate:

Is the probability of finding water in the 2006 game higher or lower than the probability of finding water on Mars?

Re: Finally the year?
 

You aren't going to give up, are you? ;)

Re: Finally the year?
 

Actually rookies were brought up a couple times. You underestimate their ability. I read about a group of kids who was about as rookie as you can get entering in a underwater compitition not only did they do well but they won beating MIT and many other colleges. (i have no idea why a high school group was in a college compitition) If its a requirement people manage thats why we do our best work when we push ourselves. I guarinty you teams could do it and actually water proofing a robot is'nt as hard as it sounds.

Re: Finally the year?
 

Yes, blame Gary. For everything.

And may I suggest that if a water element isn't possible for the robots, why not for the human players? Maybe a dunking booth, and the robots have to gather up balls to toss to knock the human players in?

Heidi

Re: Finally the year?
 

That would be cool! Design a robot to throw something. It could even be safe if FRIST used a net around the field

Re: Finally the year?
 

Not quite.

When most people around here say gyro they're referring to an angular rate gyro. This will measure how fast an angle is changing on whatever axis it's aligned with. That means you can align it with your heading, and integrate its output with Angular Rate/Time to track you angular heading as it changes. But switch an access and it can track the tilt of your robot. It doesn't measure any heading/tilt, just the rate of angular motion. You can use 3 gyros for one on X, Y, and Z axis if you'd like to track your heading and tilts in 3 dimensions.

Re: Finally the year?
 

that would be awesome!!

i can just see it tho, lets go test our robot... who wants to get wet?

Re: Finally the year?
 

If that would be the case then I would hope that the "human players" could be a mentor only position :D (I wonder who would win in a Dave vs. Heidi tryout?)
Worst case senario IRI turnaround match.

Also if anyone hasnt noticed that 120 AMP main breaker is waterproof (or so they claim.......)

Re: Finally the year?
 

Underwater?
Been there, done that.
It is difficult to find a pool, but it's also difficult for us to find a FIRST size carpeted playing field. Testing individual systems can be done in a tub.
Safety? It is always a concern. Propellers can be in a screened enclosure, etc.
Waterproof every ting? Yes it is a challenge.
Worth it? When it works, it's very rewarding.
Will FIRST do it? I doubt it. There are very few venues that could host regionals or championships. (This year the national ROV competition was held in the Neutral Buoyancy lab at the Johnson Space Center). It is not a spectator friendly competition. Not a lot to see above the water.

Anyway, information about the MATE underwater competition at
http://www.marinetech.org/rov_competition/

Cool video that mixes up FIRST and MATE. It was produced to demonstrate teamwork, not to promote FIRST or MATE or our school. http://posts.flyingspot.com/clients/...k/files/071805

Our videos and such can be found at www.FalconRobotics.org Go to ROV, then videos

We use a lot of old FIRST parts. It's an activity that we like to do after April. It costs less money than FIRST. There were quite a few FIRST teams competing this year.