Re: Programming laptops
 

This is why everyone should be using Linux...

Re: Programming laptops
 

Ignoring the legal wrangling, both involve making use of things that are not authorized. (Think about it--I theoretically steal a textbook, I theoretically download an album from the internet in an unauthorized fashion.)

And, to ask the question nobody's asked--would it make your grandmother proud?

Re: Programming laptops
 

Many in the open-source movement strongly reject software piracy or "copyright infringment" because they realize how much a lawsuit could jeopardize their work.

It seems to me that copyright infringement is essentially the theft of intellectual property. Neither is exactly gracious professionalism, and discussing both are explictly against the rules of this forum.

Re: Programming laptops
 

The thing is, you should be able to use a copy of Windows that you bought on your computers. Why should you have to pay $300 every time you get a new computer? According to US copyright laws, it is not infringement to make additional copies or adaptations of computer programs (as stated here). You are not stealing anything from Microsoft. You are using what you paid $300 for.

As per it being illegal to discuss this, then I apologize. I'm not trying to tell people to go out and pirate software, but rather I am trying to have an intellectual debate on how Microsoft manipulates its customers.

Re: Programming laptops
 

Thanks for clarifying...I agree that moving software from machine to machine is probably legal under the terms of your license agreement, though possibly not with some OEM distributions.

In any case, as Matt said before...don't pirate software!

Re: Programming laptops
 

I work for a computer shop. I build and work on computers all day long, and frequently have to answer questions about licensing issues. Couple of problems here-

Why should you have to pay $300 every time you get a new computer?

Depends on where you buy the computer from. If you buy Dell, HP, Compaq, Gateway, Sony, Toshiba, Fujitsu, or (insert brand name here), virtually every consumer level PC sold has a legitimate license for Windows built in to the price. This includes those $399 deals. Larger OEMs often get bulk or special pricing on Windows licenses, on the order of $30-40 per copy. The $300 figure that I keep seeing tossed around is only for a retail copy, in a shrink wrapped box from the shelf of any major retail store. If you purchased a computer bundled with a license, it didn't cost anywhere near $300. If it was from a major OEM, you paid about $35 for it.

Independent shops or custom built PCs are in a different category. With them it's all about choice. You can choose to build a PC to certain specifications, including software licensing. An independent OEM license of Windows XP runs about $95, when purchased with any major piece of hardware (hard drive, motherboard, CPU, essentially anything required to build a custom PC). A little less than 1/3 the $300 figure quoted. Even then, if you don't want to use Windows, you have the option to pass up the license and save that $95. However, if you choose to use Windows on a custom PC, you also choose to abide by the licensing agreement, which specifies you must have one license for each computer it runs on. No one is forcing you to use this software, but your choice to use it indicates you agree to the terms of use. The license is accepted only when the software is installed, not when the box is opened. It's your choice to read through the agreement, and click "I agree" or "I disagree." If you don't agree, the software will close, and you'll be free to install software with terms you do accept.

MS Product Activation is an anti-consumer technology designed to dupe unsuspecting customers into buying more retail copies of MS software than they may legally need.

The reason Microsoft created Product Activation was to enforce otherwise "honor system" non-enforceable end user license agreements, and prevent people from making money pirating copies of Windows and Office. People made rampant copies of Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME, and 2000. Ultimately, a number of PC vendors started selling pirated copies of Windows bundled with computers, while still charging customers for a Windows license. This is most definitely illegal under current copyright law- profiting from copies of works of which the seller is not the copyright owner, nor licensed by the copyright owner. Microsoft did and does take legal action against people profiting from non-legitimate distribution of their products. That is the reason for Activation. Right or wrong, it's a method they can use to keep track of licenses sold, and has successfully prevented "casual" copying among the non tech-savvy, and has deterred companies from profiting illegally from pirated software.

Now, that's not to say I'm a fan of Microsoft (quite the opposite, but licensing is the least of my concerns, and certainly not one of the reasons I dislike them, nor should it be for anyone who has any reasonable concept of how the corporate software industry works). In fact, I'm posting this from one of the 5 Linux boxes in my house. But it is senseless drivel on sites like Microscum who attempt to justify software piracy on the grounds that consumers have this inherent right to do whatever they want, however they want, with anything they want. Granted, some of the terms of the license could have been a bit more sensible, but then again, it's all your choice whether or not you'd like to use that particular piece of software. Simply refuse the terms and find an alternative.

Now, in an attempt to steer this thread back on course-

If you are purchasing laptops from Ebay, do ask if a Windows license is included (if that's what you require). Virtually every computer with Windows 98 SE or higher sold after 2000 will have a Certificate of Authenticity sticker somewhere on the case (usually on the bottom, sometimes under the battery compartment), indicating it's licensed to use that particular version of Windows. As long as you have the product key on the CoA, any OEM CD of that same version of Windows is legit to use to reinstall. Startup disks shouldn't be necessary, as any original Windows 98 or higher CD is an ATAPI compliant boot CD, as long as the computer's BIOS supports booting from ATAPI devices (and if it came with a 98 license, there's a 99.999% chance it does). Drivers only come into play once the operating system is loaded, and aren't necessary to get the initial installation underway (unless it's a specialty/proprietary external CD-ROM, then it can get tricky, but any internal CD drives are typically ATAPI compliant).

I've gotten some great deals on laptops from ebay in the past, but as always with ebay, buyer beware. Carefully read all listings thoroughly, and double check for any flaws/problems/quirks with the system before bidding. Some less scrupulous sellers will try to hide damage or problems in the fine print, or bury it deep in an otherwise boring paragraph. If you find a decent listing, run it by a few friends first to make sure it looks alright, and check the seller's feedback for anything negative. Also, never be afraid to ask the seller any questions about it, especially with regards to included software. Good luck!

Re: Programming laptops
 

As long as you don't keep using that old computer, and you bought a retail copy, this may be under the terms of the EULA, but you are not allowed to move OEM licenses. If you have a Microsoft select/open license (usually only businesses have these) with software assurance, you get addition rights such as re-imaging, license transfer, downgrade to older versions, and upgrades within the length of your agreement. Although it may not specifically be against copyright law, when you install the software you are agreeing to the contract of the EULA.

No one forces you to hit "I agree". Go ahead and install linux, bsd, or whatever open-source or free disto you prefer.

Re: Programming laptops
 

I tried booting the laptop from all the disks i mentioned. The only disk that worked was the WIN xp disk. And your wrong, The WIN 98 SE disk i have is not a bootable copy, Neither is the WIN NT, ME, or 95. And none of them are copies.

Re: Programming laptops
 

<Wannabe-mod-mode> Ok guys this is a thread about programming laptops and making them work, I'm asking nicely that you take the legality debates elsewhere, it's making it really hard to follow the proper side of the thread.</wannabe-mod-mode>

Now then, I can boot off my 2k and XP discs, anything else requires a boot floppy. And for the laptop I'm typing this one changing the BIOS to cd boot didn't quite work, at least not with windows CDs. It worked with my knoppix livecd so I install grub to the hard drive, booted that, and then used that to boot the Windows disc. Don't ask me why Windows didn't work, they work on all my other computers and they're not copies.

Moral is, if it won't boot the windows CDs, try a livecd like knoppix, if those work I can offer assistance in using a 3rd-party booter like grub to boot the Windows CD.

Re: Programming laptops
 

Mostly correct, except for the little fact that you've mentioned a single copy and plural computers.
Because for the money you generally receive a physical copy of the software and a license to use the software on one computer. If you're still using it on the old computer, the license does not grant you permission to use it on another one too.

If you got the original software "bundled" with the old computer, the license might not even permit you to move it to a different one, though that's probably not enforceable.
The issue here is not copyright infringement (but even if it were, it's talking about making a copy for archival purposes, not for use). The relevant issue is license agreements and permitted use.

That web site is only telling part of the story. It implies that EULAs (End User License Agreements) are just trickery to make the user think that he doesn't have the right to use the software however he wants and on as many computers as he wants. Unfortunately, the truth is that EULAs are valid, legally enforceable contracts.

In the interest of full disclosure, I must let everyone know that I make my living creating intellectual property. I am particularly sensitive to the topic of someone making copies (of software, documents, images, etc.) and using them without permission.