Programming laptops
 

I've recently been receiving numerous requests on AIM by other teams. About 95% are looking for a cheap laptop (Pentium 2) and don't know where to get one. I've recently purchased a Pentium 2 laptop (dell latitude CPI-r, 500 mega hurts, 192 MB ram, and 13 GB hard drive) for $200 (after shipping and purchasing a wireless card). I got the laptop off of Ebay. I'm posting this to try and stop all the Private messages I've been receiving, but if you have any questions you can IM me at Phillysteak527, But if you are PLEASE tell me who you are before you start asking questions. I also wanted to try to help you from getting riped off.

1. Before bidding read EVERYTHING!!!!!! on the advertising page

2. Check the sellers feedback, If there are numerous problems with their items DO NOT BID!!!

3. If your going to buy a laptop without an operating system ( The one I got didn't come with an operating system) Make sure you have a windows xp startup disk (from another computer you own, I used my uncles CD because he has a dell desktop.) because you will not be able to access the CD drive though DOS.

4. Check to see how much shipping is going to be BEFORE you bid, a lot of the laptops I almost bid on we're going to cost 50-70 dollars for shipping

5. Be POSITIVE you can fix any problems that are stated in the description (mine was missing the battery holding clip on the bottom, I just had to swap it out with a broken laptop my cousin had).

6. When you find a laptop your going to bid on, wait until there are about 1- 1 1/2 minutes before bidding, this way someone won't win the bid by a dollar or 2 (happened to me about 5 times already). If you bid too early you'll probably lose because someone will be waiting to Bid snipe you.

7. Make sure the laptop will run the programs you need it too, I'm using mine for programming the FRC robots and also for programming My own robots so it's necessary to run MPLAB and other compilers.

8. If your account is NEW and you don't have any feedback MAKE SURE that the seller doesn't require contact from you. You might have to send him an e-mail confirming that you have a paypal account (if you don't have one get one or use your parents account because most sellers require paypal). If the seller requires the confirmation and you fail to do so, he can cancel your bid even if you win the laptop.

This is the guy i got my laptop from, I guess i kinda trust him because it came as he said it would, but if you look around you might find a better deal. good luck. getgoing stores.com

you can also e-mail me at phil@familyaffairdist.com, DO NOT put my name in the subject field because it will get put in the junk folder (which i don't look at) :D

Re: Programming laptops
 

MIT Flea can be a good place to pick up cheap toys if you live in MA around Cambridge.

Re: Programming laptops
 

Yeah a friend of mine who goes to MIT told me about it. But most of them probably buy laptops off EBAY, refurbish them, and then sell them for about twice the price. I believe he called them "Craptops" :D .

Re: Programming laptops
 

Haha, yea. Me and a friend bought like 5 computers there for $11, and they do work, not very well, but they do enough to program stuff.

Re: Programming laptops
 

Please don't just happen to have a Windows XP disc somewhere that you use to install it. Please have an actual legal license to install Windows XP on that computer. So if you don't have one, buy one. FIRST teams have in the past been threatened with legal action because of software piracy; there's no need for it to happen again.

Matt

Re: Programming laptops
 

I don't want to sound rude or anything...but is there any particular reason people are harrassing you as opposed to some other random person?

Re: Programming laptops
 

While that is a good warning for people to heed, note he said 'startup disk,' NOT 'install disk'

Re: Programming laptops
 

Let me clear up a couple things.

1. Most people that we're contacting me found me through myspace

2. The only reason you need the Windows XP disk (any one will do) is so you can boot up the computer and access the CD drive. Because win 98 SE, win95, win NT, and win ME are NOT bootable disks (I've tried) you need to start off with XP. After you have access to your CD drive you can then go about installing a LEGAL operating system.

Re: Programming laptops
 

miWhat you need to do is educate yourself on the legalities of software licensing, I recommend reading http://www.microscum.com/mmpafaq/ for more information.

Re: Programming laptops
 

Um... I'm slightly confused. Why do you need to be able to access your CD drive to install a new OS? Well, I mean, the BIOS will handle booting from an install CD.

And if the computer you're getting is so old the BIOS can't boot from CD, don't bid. ;)

Re: Programming laptops
 

Uhm, that link is a bunch of BS, its like the people who claim there is no law that you have to pay taxes. If you want to hold a legal license for Windows (and by legal I mean alibied by the EULA, because it is a contract you agree to when installing windows), you can't use a copy from another computer, particularly an OEM copy, as OEM copies have specific limitations to them. Maybe you aren't liable in criminal court, but you are still breaking the contract of the EULA and thus liable in civil court. There is no way to get around the fact that by installing the software, and opening the package, you agree to the EULA, and are violating it by installing multiple copies of the software. At most, you could claim that as long as you don't use both copies at the same time it is legal, but it definitely is not to have them both running at the same time on two different computers.

Re: Programming laptops
 

Software piracy is a real crime. Microsoft didn't just make it up so that everyone would buy lots of copies of their software. It's just like with music or books; when you buy a copy, you own the media and the right to use that one copy for your own use. You don't have the right to make more copies and distribute them.

For some reason, it's a lot easier for average people to not feel bad about electronically stealing software or music, but it really is just as bad as walking into a store and taking something without paying for it. Though it's very widespread, I don't think it's something we should encourage on a great forum like ChiefDelphi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_piracy

Re: Programming laptops
 

The reason you need to have a bootable disk for your OS is because most laptops have a modular drive bay (for switching between a floppy disk drive and a CD drive). When the OS is erased from the computer the drivers that allow you to access the modular drive bay are gone. The laptop I got did not come with a floppy drive so using the WIN 98 SE startup disk was out of the question. All you have to do though is put in the bootable CD, and change the setting on the laptop to boot from the CD instead of the hard disk (there was fragments of the prior OS still on the hard drive on mine). Also if the person who owned prior to your purchase and they decided just to wipe the whole drive clean of everything including DOS (and the command.com file on mine) then your really really really need the bootable OS disk. O By the way the Win 98 SE disk that i mentioned is Legal :]


P.S. Another reason you need a WIN XP bootable disk is because Win 98, 98se, nt, and ME are not bootable disks so it won't automaticly boot up if you pop it in the cd drive and start the computer (I tried, with original legal disks though :D )

Re: Programming laptops
 

I know for a fact that the original retail and oem copies of Windows 98, 98SE, NT, ME, 2000, and XP are all bootable via the CD. No drivers should be needed to access the modular bay, it is the same as having the cd directly wired to the motherboard. If you have an original disc, then there should be no problem booting from it once you change the boot order in the BIOS. Often when people make copies of these discs they just copy the files instead of making a direct copy, and then you loose the bootable part of the cd.

Re: Programming laptops
 

That would be theft. Copyright infringement is not the same.

Re: Programming laptops
 

This is why everyone should be using Linux...

Re: Programming laptops
 

Ignoring the legal wrangling, both involve making use of things that are not authorized. (Think about it--I theoretically steal a textbook, I theoretically download an album from the internet in an unauthorized fashion.)

And, to ask the question nobody's asked--would it make your grandmother proud?

Re: Programming laptops
 

Many in the open-source movement strongly reject software piracy or "copyright infringment" because they realize how much a lawsuit could jeopardize their work.

It seems to me that copyright infringement is essentially the theft of intellectual property. Neither is exactly gracious professionalism, and discussing both are explictly against the rules of this forum.

Re: Programming laptops
 

The thing is, you should be able to use a copy of Windows that you bought on your computers. Why should you have to pay $300 every time you get a new computer? According to US copyright laws, it is not infringement to make additional copies or adaptations of computer programs (as stated here). You are not stealing anything from Microsoft. You are using what you paid $300 for.

As per it being illegal to discuss this, then I apologize. I'm not trying to tell people to go out and pirate software, but rather I am trying to have an intellectual debate on how Microsoft manipulates its customers.

Re: Programming laptops
 

Thanks for clarifying...I agree that moving software from machine to machine is probably legal under the terms of your license agreement, though possibly not with some OEM distributions.

In any case, as Matt said before...don't pirate software!

Re: Programming laptops
 

I work for a computer shop. I build and work on computers all day long, and frequently have to answer questions about licensing issues. Couple of problems here-

Why should you have to pay $300 every time you get a new computer?

Depends on where you buy the computer from. If you buy Dell, HP, Compaq, Gateway, Sony, Toshiba, Fujitsu, or (insert brand name here), virtually every consumer level PC sold has a legitimate license for Windows built in to the price. This includes those $399 deals. Larger OEMs often get bulk or special pricing on Windows licenses, on the order of $30-40 per copy. The $300 figure that I keep seeing tossed around is only for a retail copy, in a shrink wrapped box from the shelf of any major retail store. If you purchased a computer bundled with a license, it didn't cost anywhere near $300. If it was from a major OEM, you paid about $35 for it.

Independent shops or custom built PCs are in a different category. With them it's all about choice. You can choose to build a PC to certain specifications, including software licensing. An independent OEM license of Windows XP runs about $95, when purchased with any major piece of hardware (hard drive, motherboard, CPU, essentially anything required to build a custom PC). A little less than 1/3 the $300 figure quoted. Even then, if you don't want to use Windows, you have the option to pass up the license and save that $95. However, if you choose to use Windows on a custom PC, you also choose to abide by the licensing agreement, which specifies you must have one license for each computer it runs on. No one is forcing you to use this software, but your choice to use it indicates you agree to the terms of use. The license is accepted only when the software is installed, not when the box is opened. It's your choice to read through the agreement, and click "I agree" or "I disagree." If you don't agree, the software will close, and you'll be free to install software with terms you do accept.

MS Product Activation is an anti-consumer technology designed to dupe unsuspecting customers into buying more retail copies of MS software than they may legally need.

The reason Microsoft created Product Activation was to enforce otherwise "honor system" non-enforceable end user license agreements, and prevent people from making money pirating copies of Windows and Office. People made rampant copies of Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME, and 2000. Ultimately, a number of PC vendors started selling pirated copies of Windows bundled with computers, while still charging customers for a Windows license. This is most definitely illegal under current copyright law- profiting from copies of works of which the seller is not the copyright owner, nor licensed by the copyright owner. Microsoft did and does take legal action against people profiting from non-legitimate distribution of their products. That is the reason for Activation. Right or wrong, it's a method they can use to keep track of licenses sold, and has successfully prevented "casual" copying among the non tech-savvy, and has deterred companies from profiting illegally from pirated software.

Now, that's not to say I'm a fan of Microsoft (quite the opposite, but licensing is the least of my concerns, and certainly not one of the reasons I dislike them, nor should it be for anyone who has any reasonable concept of how the corporate software industry works). In fact, I'm posting this from one of the 5 Linux boxes in my house. But it is senseless drivel on sites like Microscum who attempt to justify software piracy on the grounds that consumers have this inherent right to do whatever they want, however they want, with anything they want. Granted, some of the terms of the license could have been a bit more sensible, but then again, it's all your choice whether or not you'd like to use that particular piece of software. Simply refuse the terms and find an alternative.

Now, in an attempt to steer this thread back on course-

If you are purchasing laptops from Ebay, do ask if a Windows license is included (if that's what you require). Virtually every computer with Windows 98 SE or higher sold after 2000 will have a Certificate of Authenticity sticker somewhere on the case (usually on the bottom, sometimes under the battery compartment), indicating it's licensed to use that particular version of Windows. As long as you have the product key on the CoA, any OEM CD of that same version of Windows is legit to use to reinstall. Startup disks shouldn't be necessary, as any original Windows 98 or higher CD is an ATAPI compliant boot CD, as long as the computer's BIOS supports booting from ATAPI devices (and if it came with a 98 license, there's a 99.999% chance it does). Drivers only come into play once the operating system is loaded, and aren't necessary to get the initial installation underway (unless it's a specialty/proprietary external CD-ROM, then it can get tricky, but any internal CD drives are typically ATAPI compliant).

I've gotten some great deals on laptops from ebay in the past, but as always with ebay, buyer beware. Carefully read all listings thoroughly, and double check for any flaws/problems/quirks with the system before bidding. Some less scrupulous sellers will try to hide damage or problems in the fine print, or bury it deep in an otherwise boring paragraph. If you find a decent listing, run it by a few friends first to make sure it looks alright, and check the seller's feedback for anything negative. Also, never be afraid to ask the seller any questions about it, especially with regards to included software. Good luck!

Re: Programming laptops
 

As long as you don't keep using that old computer, and you bought a retail copy, this may be under the terms of the EULA, but you are not allowed to move OEM licenses. If you have a Microsoft select/open license (usually only businesses have these) with software assurance, you get addition rights such as re-imaging, license transfer, downgrade to older versions, and upgrades within the length of your agreement. Although it may not specifically be against copyright law, when you install the software you are agreeing to the contract of the EULA.

No one forces you to hit "I agree". Go ahead and install linux, bsd, or whatever open-source or free disto you prefer.

Re: Programming laptops
 

I tried booting the laptop from all the disks i mentioned. The only disk that worked was the WIN xp disk. And your wrong, The WIN 98 SE disk i have is not a bootable copy, Neither is the WIN NT, ME, or 95. And none of them are copies.

Re: Programming laptops
 

<Wannabe-mod-mode> Ok guys this is a thread about programming laptops and making them work, I'm asking nicely that you take the legality debates elsewhere, it's making it really hard to follow the proper side of the thread.</wannabe-mod-mode>

Now then, I can boot off my 2k and XP discs, anything else requires a boot floppy. And for the laptop I'm typing this one changing the BIOS to cd boot didn't quite work, at least not with windows CDs. It worked with my knoppix livecd so I install grub to the hard drive, booted that, and then used that to boot the Windows disc. Don't ask me why Windows didn't work, they work on all my other computers and they're not copies.

Moral is, if it won't boot the windows CDs, try a livecd like knoppix, if those work I can offer assistance in using a 3rd-party booter like grub to boot the Windows CD.

Re: Programming laptops
 

Mostly correct, except for the little fact that you've mentioned a single copy and plural computers.
Because for the money you generally receive a physical copy of the software and a license to use the software on one computer. If you're still using it on the old computer, the license does not grant you permission to use it on another one too.

If you got the original software "bundled" with the old computer, the license might not even permit you to move it to a different one, though that's probably not enforceable.
The issue here is not copyright infringement (but even if it were, it's talking about making a copy for archival purposes, not for use). The relevant issue is license agreements and permitted use.

That web site is only telling part of the story. It implies that EULAs (End User License Agreements) are just trickery to make the user think that he doesn't have the right to use the software however he wants and on as many computers as he wants. Unfortunately, the truth is that EULAs are valid, legally enforceable contracts.

In the interest of full disclosure, I must let everyone know that I make my living creating intellectual property. I am particularly sensitive to the topic of someone making copies (of software, documents, images, etc.) and using them without permission.