USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

I heard a rumor this past season that Innovation First, Inc. was going to convert FRC Controllers to USB data transfer. In doing this, it would enable the Mac to be able to hook up to the Robot Controller and download software. Anyone else hear this, because it would be awwweeessoommee! :D

EDIT: Innovation First, Inc. has denied my request for confirmation on this issue.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

Not just that but imagine the new joystick options.....
No i haven't heard that but i know allot of people want to see the IFI controllers USB enabled.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

I'm not sure if the joysticks are going USB, because then we would be able to have unlimited awesomeness, but I was just talking about the Program port.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

That's quite another topic. To use a USB connection to the computer for programming, the RC would need to be a USB slave. That's pretty easy, and relatively cheap. To use USB joysticks would require 1) being a USB master, which is a bit more expensive in both parts and firmware, and 2) USB drivers for any joysticks to be connected.

A USB-to-serial converter can already let a Macintosh connect to a RC's program port, by the way. Making use of that connection is only a matter of software...

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

USB would be awsome as less and less laptops are supporting the parallel ports, and it even opens the possibility of having those sub-compact notebooks to program on (and yes, Macs!)

I wouldn't be surprised if IFI is working on a new product using USB, but I have no insider information.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

I will bet actual money this doesn't happen. Serial port based PIC programming has been around as long as PICs have, and to my knowledge no microcontroller out there doesn't use some form of it. None, to my knowledge, use USB. Why bother? It would be much easier to include a serial->usb converter in next year's kit.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

And what about the Mac part of the rumor? :yikes:

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

I would imagine, if the RC were to have a usb port right on it, it would have a USB to serial chip right on the board. By providing their own converter either on the board or in the kit, they can control the parts that are used, only have to worry about 1 driver, and ensure that speed is acceptable. We have noticed problems using usb to serial converters and that some take significantly longer to program the RC than a real hardware serial port.

Also, there are several PIC's that have USB capabilities, although I am unsure if they allow in-circuit programming over USB.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

OK, this is going to seem a little dumb, but define 'PIC'.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

Tony Norman is sitting next to me right now, and upon reading this message made the following comment: "Not this year. This is in the list of 'highly desireable items' for future development, but it won't be tackled until the next development cycle."

Rumor killed.

-dave

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

huh, guess I don't know, if it is an acronym. Its the main (only?) series of microchip microcontrollers though, two of which happen to be onboard our controller.

And by the way, this has been mentioned before, but with a little work and a usb stick that uses 100k pots, you can quite easily convert a usb joystick to serial. With a certain limit on buttons/axis's obviously though that usb doesn't have. but who needs 10 buttons and a pov on 1 joystick for driving a robot?

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

PIC stands for Peripheral Interface Controller. We have two PIC18F8520 chips in the RC controller from IFI. One is user programmable and is what we are changing when we download HEX file programs on our robots.

Regards,

Mike

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

Good to know it's on the list of things to do, although not surprising it won't happen next year.

BTW, is your car still in Dayton?

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

So, does the "this" refer to USB support, Mac support or both?

I'm guessing USB - and thinking maybe IFI has better things to do than try to support development environments for Windows and Mac OS? Don't take me wrong - I think Macs are great (as he posts from his trusty Tibook) - I just think software to support new and wonderful sensors and higher control system reliability might benefit more people.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

So sad :( But glad to know it is comming. Eventually.

And on USB to serial converters- Most are designed to work for PDA's and will work fine with PDA's and some other devices, but will be drastically lengthen the transfer time. We had a 400MHz school computer as our programming computer. It would transfer the file in, oh, I would say 15-25 seconds. But would be forever compiling. We tried a USB to serial converter with a newer laptop (1.7Ghz ish). Compile in 1/4 the time, but took about 15 minutes to transfer the file. But this wasn't durring the competition, so it didn't hurt us and we knew not to use it when time counted. And the converter we used does work on my dad's old Palm Pilot with much better transfer rates. So it wasn't that the converter was faulty.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

Is there a PowerPC PIC compiler package that I'm unaware of? Running the x86 version on Virtual PC works for me, but obviously I'd prefer something native...

I've seen a couple Keyspan USB serial ports in action, and they seemed to work pretty well. I plan on buying one soon.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

It is important to read carefully, and parse the statement with equal attention. Note that he did NOT say that it "was in development" - he said it was "on the list" of "desireable items for future development." There is a very big difference. In other words, it is being considered for development - but development is not guaranteed, and they won't even start to look at it until later (e.g. after this year). Be careful not to read too much into the statement. You are making conclusions about information that just isn't there.

-dave

p.s. the van is (finally!) back from Dayton - two and a half weeks and three transmissions later! :(

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

Well, thanks for clearing that up Dave. Atleast they are talking about doing it someday...

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

Again don't read to much into it. He never said they were talking about it. He said it was "on the list" but never mentioned anything about talking about it. Actually this post has a serious side. How much would this add to the cost of the IFI controller? Or would it add to the cost? I don't think the CMU2 added any cost so I'm not sure this would either.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

The components are cheap -- no more than a few dollars, in the kind of quantity that might be purchased for FIRST robotics team use. However, that ignores engineering and tooling costs, which are not negligible.

For about $15, you can buy your own USB-to-serial converter and have it today, and it will work with the older RCs and mini-RCs as well.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

But are slow as crud if you are talking about ones from radio shack

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

I managed to find this one, and it seemed like a likely choice. One that IFI recommends is manufactured by a company called Inside Out networks, and is $90, and is not compatible with Mac OS.
This one, however, works with Windows, Mac OS 8 and 10, and people have gotten it working with a 2.6.x kernel in Linux.
http://www.keyspan.com/products/usb/USA19HS/

I am looking at buying one. When you click the buy now button, it gives you prices ranging from $20-$40, so it is not that expensive.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

IFI consistently praises the 26-183 converter from Radio Shack. Several teams report that the inexpensive Bafo Technologies BF-810 works great.

Tiger Direct has a deal through October on a CP Tech adapter that ends up being free after rebate. At that price, you can't go wrong.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

Thanks for that, I am checking it out right now, and will probably order it tonight :D

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

It's probably also worth nothing that if they removed the serial programming port, that would remove one of the ports you can use to interface a serial device with the RC. There aren't too many serial devices you want to interface, but it'd be a significant removal.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

I will back up this statement saying the Radio Shack 26-183 that IFI praises is a great USB to Serial converter. Team 237 used it all of last season with very great success with programing the robot AND calibrating the camera that we successfully used. Also, the transfer speed is perfectly fine for what is need to to work on a robot.

Re: USB and Mac Support for IFI FRC Controllers???
 

We use: http://www.cablestogo.com/product.as...=101&sku=26886

It's worked perfectly so far, and downloads were done in about a minute.