Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Did anyone watch the Angels Sox game tonight? In the bottom of the 9th sox are up to bat there are 2 outs and 2 strikes a pitch was thrown. The batter swung and missed, and the ball continued on its way into the Angels' catcher's glove right above the ground but clearly in the glove and not on the ground. The umpire made the motion with his arm clearly calling it a strike. The catcher stands up with what he thinks is the end of the inning and rolls the ball to the mound. The batter turns away from first base as if to walk back to the dugout. All the Angels in the outfield start coming in. Then, the batter does a 180 and spins around and starts furiously running toward first base and arrives there where he is declared safe by the same umpire that called him out at home plate after he swung and missed. Everyone is going "WTF?" and the Angles manager comes running out in a fury to "talk" with the umpires. They say the ball hit the ground (which in my mind it clearly did not), the catcher never tagged him, and he is now safe at first. The third base umpire (who would have had the best view of the situation) apparantly wasn't watching.

It would have been bad enough if the umpire didn't initially call him out with a strike, but to call it (correctly) and then go back on the call because the batter thought he'd be smart and try to get on base? C'mon.

It ended up costing the Angles the game.

Anyway, did you see it and what do you think?

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

...That's Life, thats all you can say about it. I was shocked when my dad told me the story, but give the ump some credit, he just finishished a 100+ game season and was asked to do even more for the off season. It's one of those human errors...

I wonder if this could possibly lead to instant replay in baseball, or even just instant replay for post season games.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Initially I was as surprised as everyone else. However, I'm a little league umpire, and the umpire did the right thing. If I can remember correctly, it is a strike, and it goes in the score book as a strikeout, but also as an error on the catcher. The umpire calls the strike, and then calls the batter out when he is tagged by the catcher. However, I thought that the ball did hit the ground, but only after about 5 replays. The only justification I have for this, however, is that the ball somehow ended up in the heel of the glove (the part farthest from the ground), and the only way I can see that happening is the ball bouncing. However, it was a very tough call and I could be persuaded either way. Huge bummer for the Angels though.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

The day baseball gets instant replay is the day I stop watching baseball.

I unfortunately missed the game, due to a meeting that went wayyyy too long.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

over here in "Soccer" (football :p ) a few years back, leeds had just been attacking the opposition and missed. All the leeds players pulled back except one who had gone sliding off the pitch earlier
The keeper put the ball on the ground just before he went to kick it up and the leeds player who had slid off the pitch behind him came running back, took the ball off the ground and scored a goal
The referee allowed it as it was a perfectly legal goal, but it caused huge uproar
i'm sure if you look around on the web you could find it but i can't remember who it was against which makes it stupidly hard to find

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

The call was fine to me.

Josh Paul was at fault for not being in the rhythm of the game. He shouldve been used to Eddings calls by that point. He knew his strike call was a pump of the fist, he shouldve known to tag A.J.
However, we dont know all the actual events. We dont know if Eddings said anything, or what Sciosia or the Umps discussed on the field.
The call shouldve been the Third Base Umpires call. Sciosia shouldve went directly to him.
However, A.J. should have never started to walk to his dugout, i know from Little League ball, that once the player turns to his dugout, its an out. Yet again though, its different in the Bigs, and there are many more situations involved.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

If the ball did hit the ground, even with the great cameras they have, it is just in between frames. The camera shows the ball maybe 6-8" ahead of the glove, and then shows it in the glove in the next frame. I guess we'll never really know what happened in between.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

What the cameras didnt catch is the batter quietly saying to the ump:

"These are not the droids your looking for

the ball hit the ground

you can move along to 1st base"

:^)

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Yeah, i have to agree with that one shot. But in some other shots, which granted arent that great themselves, do show a change in direction by the ball before it entered the glove. Cold Pizza this morning had a whole segment on this event, and showed a few side angles that looked as if it did hit the ground. However they did show that one frame over and over again, where you saw glove below the ball. Yet i dont think it was in the glove yet. I also think that the next frame after that, it did change direction, but yet again, was it in the glove yet?

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

I saw the play on Baseball Tonight, this morning (rather ironic, eh?). After seeing it repetedly, it looked like the catcher had the ball.

At any rate, the ump had already called him out. He should have stuck by his decision, since he was the only one to see it. He shouldn't have changed it just because Pierzynski decided to get cute.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Like they have been saying though. The ump has that Out Call as his Strike call. So we really dont know what happened. The only way we would really know, is if the ump was mic'd and we heard him say "Out".

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

They showed a bunch of clips from earlier outs, and that was the same signal he made each time.

I didn't notice... does he do his strike call to the side, or is it the same fist pump as he does for outs?

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Same fist pump.

Thats the major problem right now. Cuz his side signal means a clean swing with no ball contact. The 2nd signal was just his strike signal.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

this would be a hard case for the batter to argue, to make his point

Batter: Im absolutely certain the ball hit the ground
Any-rational-person: Ummmmm.... Then why did you swing at it?

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

That happens all the time.

If you watched game one of the ALCS, Contreras' "forkball" ended up in the dirt after being swung on and missed multiple times.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

I have been a umpire for 6 years now and that call was 100% correct. Living near Chicago I saw it over and over again on the News and after carefully watching the video the ball bounced out of the glove and touched the ground. Drop 3rd, he was on the base. Sox win.
FYI to anyone trying to go to Chicago it is CRAZY!!! There are so many people in that city.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

The call may have been correct, but there's absolutely no way to know, even with instant replay. You just can't definitvely tell from the video they have. To make an analogy, if it were football, and it was being reviewed whether or not the receiver made a catch without scooping it off the ground (ball hitting ground, then going into glove), there wouldn't have been any 'conclusive evidence' to overturn the play.

At any rate, if the correct call was made, it was by accident, since the home plate ump couldn't possibly have seen whether it hit the ground, and the 3rd base ump wasn't paying attention.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Bill Klem, who became one of the game's most famous umpires because of his wit, once said; "It ain't nothin' till I call it."

The pitch was strike three because the ump called it strike three. The batter wasn't out because the ump didn't call him out. The catcher should have had his head in the game enough to know the difference - the batter sure did.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

I'm going to use an analogy here: In soccer, there is a rule. The rule is, "If the ref didn't see it, it didn't happen." Application (if baseball has a similar rule): If the ump did not see the ball touch the ground, then it did not touch the ground, and the batter is out. If he saw the ball touch the ground, then it touched the ground, and the batter is out on a swinging strike anyway (unless the catcher dropped it, and the ump saw that.)

Meanwhile, it's water over the dam, spilled milk, etc. Let's drop the subject and get on with life. I am seeing people warming up their lawyerism, which is not a good thing when we are coming up on build season.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Wow! That's a curious rule. If you were on a bus and sombody in the back opened a can of sardines, would you not know it because you didn't see it? Or what if someone fired a gun on the other side of the ridge, would you say it didn't happen?

A major league umpire calls over 200 pitches per game and well over 100 games per year. He knows when a pitch scrapes the ground before hitting the mitt, or is trapped instead of caught clean. With hundres of thousands of pitches worth of experience, he's seen, heard, and felt it all.

There's no doubt in my mind that Eddings knows he got it right. It turned out bad for the Angles, but it was their bad, not his.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Actually, in soccer it applies to just what happens to/around the ball. If you hit the ball with your hand, but the ref doesn't see it (which is unlikely), you're safe, even if the other team yells at the ref for it. Another example: I once did a legal slide tackle (from the front or side) on an opponent, but the ref saw it as the opponent tripping me (a foul). Ref didn't see the slide, so it was not a slide. And in a soccer game, the ref can see about the whole field if he needs to, so he will likely see something if it happens.

It would not necessarily apply outside the sports area though. I mean, it's not like I could say that you didn't build a robot because I didn't see you do it or anything like that...

And the other thing about soccer: you can't get the ref to change his mind. You can try, but it's probably a waste of time. Kind of like FIRST. Maybe baseball should adopt something like this?

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

As it applies to sports, the analogy is 100% true.

You're absolutely positvely sure he got it right, the next person is absolutely positively sure he got it wrong... blah blah blah.

There's one thing I'm sure about--and that's that we're all wrong. There's no way anyone knows what the call should have been. It's too close.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

you should have seen the rugby game i just watched
the first half took about 55 minutes (instead of 40) due to injury time etc( they stop the clock)
In the last 5 minutes of the first , there was 2 sin bins (one on each team), then about a minute later there was a fight broke out, and the camera caught it , red card for both, 3 injuries in that time too
secondh alf , the conversion was flagged as in by the linesmen but on camera replay was out
bad call
but you have to live by it
it meant the game was a draw

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Reminds me of the situation at the end of the last match of the 2003 Los Angeles regional. I know there's a few of us out there who still remember it.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Ok here i go haha... The call was a drop third strike people..so If you were a catcher wouldnt you kno to automatically tag the batter to for sure know that he is out. Im sorry but the ball hit the ground before it hit the mit. It barely skimmed the dirt and jsut enough to get in the glove. It was a strike and the ump made a good call saying its strike 3....BUT he DID NOT say that the batter was out. Every stike 3 the ump pumps his fist. As a softball player for 14 years ive always been taught that if you get strike 3 run anways untill the unmpire calls you OUT...oviously the ump did not call him out so Pierzynski ran. then thats whent he controversy started. any good baseball player would run on strike 3 unless the ump called him OUT. and Pierzynski is a great example of a good baseball player and a runner. he knows what hes doing.

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I'm not too big into baseball or the rules of it so I'm confused on something. Any time I get three strikes then decide to immediately run to first base, as long as the opponent team gets caught up in the confusion and doesn't throw the ball to someone to touch the base or tag me, then I'm safe?

Hrrm, getting on base by striking out; I bet'd work a couple times if you did it right, then they would catch on and know you were going to do it and have the ball ready to beat you to the base.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

You can only run if the catcher fails to catch that third strike. Since the batter has no way of knowing this it is a good idea to run until the ump calls you out, just in case the catcher dropped the ball. I believe this is where much of the controversy lies, whether the ball hit the ground before it hit the catcher's glove.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

Really, anymore debate about what happened is useless.

Nobody can prove it did hit the ground.

Nobody can prove it didn't.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

brings up an interesting question though: if they did decide to 'instrument' the field so refs can review a call, then what would it take?

High speed video cameras that can capture a thousand frames per second (slow motion video)?

sensors in the ground that can detect the ball hitting the plate, or the dirt?

stereoscopic (3D) video that would give the reviewer good depth perception?

Lasers everywhere, like alarm systems in museums, that will detect when a ball has crossed a line?

Im sure the ball flight path could be tracked with millimeter accuracy. How would you like that contract at your company?

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

sonar etc
here in england for the cricket they have this system called Hawkeye. It works out the speed and diretion of the ball. It helps them tell if a ball on the pads was going to hit the wicket or not
also i believe it is used in tennis too
Link

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

you can prove it...look at the clips over and over again and look at the pictures...the catchers glove was covering the ball that was in the dirt. but proving that the ball hit the ground or not doesnt matter anyways. what matters is the umps call and the ump did not call him out. its the umps mistake and the batter made the right desion by running..because obviously he didnt hear the ump call him out. he just said strike 3. whether the ball hit the ground or not on strike 3 you HAVE TO call strike 3...no matter what.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

No, you can't prove anything. It's a completely subjective matter.

And he did call strike three, he didn't call the out.

Like I said before, whether or not they made the right call, the umps screwed up. The home plate ump couldn't see whether the ball hit the ground or not. It was his responsibility to a) call the batter out after calling no contact and strike 3, or b) have the other ump (who wasn't even watching) signal whether or not the ball hit the ground.

But neither of those things happened. It's kind of a moot point, because from now on there won't be a single catcher that forgets to tag the batter after strike 3.

Re: Bad Call at Angels Sox game
 

I never said he didnt call strike 3. he DID call strike 3...but he DID NOT call him out. Your right that the ump couldnt see weather the ball hit the ground...so all in all it is the umps fault...but still the batter made the right desion of running.