Girls are still undermined?
 

It was brought to my attention that, although many teams have let us "chicks" do the same things the males do, not all teams have changed.

Of course, I cannot point fingers. I have heard more than one story and invite anyone who has a story to share. My purpose in bringing up this thread is NOT to point fingers, it is to bring up the fact that it still happens.

Some girls are still told to go do something "spirit-like" or perhaps loaded with "clerical work" or maybe just pushed away from the mechanical aspects of robotics.

I think it's important to promote the integrated environment where there are no comments suggesting a hierarchy. It's our duty to promote this and make sure we don't know anyone that let's people get away with comments such as "why don't you think of what colors to paint our robot?" or "why don't you advertise for our robot?" -- Many comments are said in jest but there is a line between joking around and limiting girls to what they can do.

I would like to point out that I have seen MANY teams where this isn't a problem at all. Girls are encouraged just as much as boys are and there is a respect between each of them.

But unfortunately, as I mentioned, all the teams aren't like this yet. We all have some speaking up to do, whether it is for ourselves or for our peers. If you know someone who's had to deal with this, please, try to address the problem so it doesn't happen.

What do you think?

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

We haven't really had many girls (1) in recent years but we have 5 now. Recently, I handed a girl a drill and a guy a vacuum. So, I'd say we keep things pretty fair. For example right now we have a couple guys working on a new logo and a couple girls being introduced to electronics and programming.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and last year our only girl did a good amount of machining.

I don't think there's anything girls can't or shouldn't do. I think some of the heavy lifting may be a little more challenging though due to males usually being more muscular than females. (nothing I can do about that really).

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Mmm, I don't know. Alot of the girls we have had on our team recently are the stereotypical girl, where getting her hands dirty is an unforgivable sin. Now don't get me wrong, we have had some girls do wonders in the machine shop, and they are strongly encouraged, perhaps bcause they are so rare. But alot of initial "stereotyping" is done because so many girls are afraid to get their hands dirty. I guess thats where FIRST comes in too. It gives them a chance to learn otherwise remote mechanical skills, and if they choose not to learn then they have other opportunities: Chairmans, animation, and general graphic design.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Andrew,

I don't think that Neha is saying that there is a problem with the girls who want to be on Chairmans, Animation (I'm ignoring the other comment) being there, but rather the ones with interest in engineering being forced to participate in the aforestated groups and not allowed to participate in engineering because of their lack of the ever coveted Y chromosome.

Neha, yes, it's a problem. That is a big reason that, especially the MI chapter of, the RCU is around. Girls who are not being allowed to do such things can go there to talk and try to learn the skills that some aren't being taught on their teams so that they can be just as competant as their male counterparts. It is support and it is education. It's a safe place, basically. The best way that I know of to deal with a situation where you are being judged as inferior is to prove your competency. CD, RCU and mentors, even from other teams, can all prove valuable resources in this sort of unacceptable situation.

And for the record, if any girls are in this position on their teams and just want to vent, my screen name on AIM is spartychica08. While I can provide little to no technical insight, I can probably at least get you in contact with someone that can help out.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

When we recruits kids one requirement to being an X-Cat is you have to do one year working on the robot. Boy or girl. NO EXCEPTIONS. We prefer the kids get the full FIRST experience by trying all aspects of the team. It may not win us a buttload of awards on the field but it accomplishes our ultimate goal of building up that child for the future.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Before someone bites my head off: I will be speaking in generalizations. If I say that a certain group does something, it in no way means that everyone in that group will do it. The following statements are also observations, not opinions.

While I'm not willing to say that girls tend toward the "creative" tasks, I will say that they tend away from engineering tasks. Without encouragement and reassurance, I've noticed that many girls that have passed through the team won't do engineering. It seems that they won't do it on their own. I'm not just talking about the dirty work, they don't seem to like design work either. While most of them will do the work, they usually need active encouragement and someone to make sure they keep going. Once they get into it, though, they'll stay with it. There haven't been many that want to take on higher level engineering positions though.

I will also note that with the creation of our administrative branch (marketing, PR...) there was a massive influx of girls. However, they seem to have evenly distributed themselves between engineering and administration.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I tend towards the creative stuff and avoid even thinking of touching the robot. I'm just plain not handy and would do more harm than good but my degree is in graphic design and it's what I do best.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I think that the most widespread gender-based problem lies in sparking the interest of more young women in science and technology, not so much in gender-based discrimination. I believe that the reason there is a disproportionately low number of females involved in the areas of science and engineering is the fact that girls are often underexposed to the possibility of a career in those fields. The problem is not so much that girls are being discriminated against, but rather that girls are not receiving enough encouragement from the onset.

I don't believe that sexism on FIRST teams is a huge problem. There are many, many teams where girls are welcome and encouraged to participate. Why then, are there so few females in FIRST?

The real issue is that girls are usually encouraged by society to go into the arts and humanities, rather than into science or technology. They aren't encouraged to go into science or engineering in the same way that boys are - not because society is discriminatory, but because our culture has only relatively recently accepted the idea of women pursuing scientific careers. Society isn't "used to" the idea of women in science and technology, and therefore it isn't "expected". Many girls never really consider careers in engineering because their cultural experience never planted the thought in their minds.

I once asked one of my female students at my summer RoboCamp for Girls session why she had never considered joining the school's FLL team. She told me, "I was afraid it would be ruled by the boys." I have observed that oftentimes, girls in that age group (9-14) are often more reserved and reticent than boys in the same age group. Their ideas are less likely to be heard in a noisy group of boisterous boys, and they are less comfortable sharing them. All too often, the girls have had some sort of a bad experience in school trying to work with a group of boys, and they were shut out. Boys at that age are often bossier than the girls, and can be rougher and pushier.

These social characteristics of this particular age group - when left unchecked - are often what prevents young girls from feeling comfortable embarking upon a new experience that is mostly male dominated. No one discriminates against them or discourages them purposely. Rather, the girls are uncomfortable from the onset, due to social environmental factors. This mindset is learned in their preteen years, and consequently makes many girls rule out robotics in their teen years.

However, it is possible to foster a group dynamic that allows girls to feel more comfortable working in a male dominated activity. Maintaining a team that is well structured and organized prevents members from feeling overwhelmed by chaos (why is it that chaos is often present where there are boys? ;) ). Making clear rules about allowing everyone to share their ideas is very important. Define your behavioral expectations to the kids clearly - make sure that an atmosphere of respect is highly palpable. This allows everyone to feel comfortable working with each other, and sharing their opinions. By keeping a well-run team, you are ensuring that all of the students (including the girls) have a positive experience.

But how does society in general help more girls become interested in science and technology?

I firmly believe that all-girls programs and camps are a great way to introduce pre-teen and teen girls to robotics. I ran two RoboCamp for Girls sessions this summer, and they were a great success. For the first time ever, my school district has female members on it's two FLL teams. Previously, there were none. Because the girls didn't have to worry about being pushed around by boys, they felt comfortable embarking upon a new learning experience. They were able to acquire the knowledge and skills that made them feel less intimidated to join the FLL team. They felt (and were) of equal competence to the boys who were on the team, and they felt comfortable sharing their opinions.

The other reason why girls felt comfortable in the all-girls program is that they could stick with their friends. Girls at that age seem to be more confident about trying new things when they have a friend at their side. This is true for my robotics team also - almost all of the girls on my team have joined because a friend was already on the team.

The bottom line is this:

More girls need to be directly encouraged to become interested in science and technology. More programs targeted specifically at girls need to be put in place. Sexism is not the root of this problem, as it was in the past. Even though most sexism is gone, society still has not recovered from it's effects - namely, that girls are not expected to go into science and technology the way that boys are. By directly encouraging girls, we can hopefully initiate a gradual change in society's perceptions surrounding careers and gender.

-- Jaine

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I had this disucussion with a few of my team members just last week.

At least to me, it has never been an issue on our team. Everyone (both boys and girls) will stand their ground whether the debate is about the robot or about spirit. Maybe we just have a really confident group of girls.

We've almost had the opposite occurance at times. The girls taking the robot from the boys. But other times it will be the veterans overshadowing the rookies, or the outgoing kid not noticing that the quiet kid has something to say. To me it seems to be a matter of attitude and personality more than gender.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I brought this up before but nobody took up the discussion. (You can ignore my closing comments there.)

This gender bias seems to be more prominant in engineering than science, but I haven't been able to figure out why.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Just a thought:
After reading these comments, many of which I agree with, I'm making a hypothesis.

There is confidence in numbers.
Boys see other boys doing mechanical work so they feel more invited to do the same.
If there are girls also doing mechanical work, the next girl might feel encouraged, but if there are only boys working on the robot, then the girl would have to break the "invisible barrier". It may be, in fact, that there is no barrier, but to a girl who sees only boys working or designing the robot, they might have a preconditioned barrier of their own to cross.

This could be with anything. What if only girls did the electrical work and always do? I'm sure some boys might hesitate and do something else instead.

Just throwing this out there....

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

You should try gathering some statistical data on this problem.

Come up with some type of questionnaire, or a poll asking about girl's interest and participation in science and technology. You can distribute it to your school to come up with some small scale results. If you like the idea, I do recommend making a Chief Delphi white paper out of this, and trying to get as many people as possible involved in the distribution of this poll.

I think it would be pretty neat to get something big like that going, because you would have some solid numbers to work off of. You would also be able to see how girl's perspective on engineering varies throughout different regions of the country, and try to draw some conclusions off of that.

What will this do to help the problem? No idea.. the balls in your court for that one. I just think doing something like this would be a worthwhile undertaking.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

It would be interesting to check the statistics: what percent of freshman enrolled at engineering universities this year, female & male? It would be a good indication of where we are, and by looking at past years, what is the trend?

One of the great dis-services that happened in the 70s and the 80s was confusing "equal" with "same".

Women and men should absolutely have equal rights, equal opportunities, equal encouragement and at the same time we need to understand and acknowledge the genuine differences in the way that men and women think, feel and interact with the world.

Some of those differences are a result of our culture, and some are due to the way our brains are wired. If you ignore the differences you are setting yourself up for frustration, grief, and in some cases failure.

Please dont take my comments the wrong way. Women can be excellent engineers, and men can be excellent nurses, but men and women are clearly drawn towards some occupations and shy away from others.

If we think that half of all engineers should be women by a certain date in the future, it would be best to first stop and understand why you think that is true?

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

It's pretty much entirely disproportional. I know engineering schools like RIT/WPI/etc that are well known in FIRST all have extremely small female populations.

I think the gap is very slowly closing, but it's going to be a long long time until it reaches 50/50 or 60/40, or whatever it is that most colleges are at.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

my point is: is it reasonable to expect the ratio to be 50:50?

If you look at the present situation, and from your perspective you think it should be 50:50, and that makes you upset or angry, or it pushes you work towards making it 50:50, are you looking at things realistically?

Im only raising the question. What should the ratio be?

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Neha's already heard this, but I'll post so everyone else can see what she's talking about.

Though I absolutely adore my team, they are a bit disrespectful at times. I'm friends with a lot of members of other teams, mostly through Corey Balint (25). We're the "chat kids" - we have chats just about every night so we can all catch up with each other and whatnot. Basically, acknowledging these people and other random people that approach me at competitions has gotten me the reputation for being a flirt. In reality, I'm a hyper kid that's just extremely friendly. I don't really mind being called a flirt. But it's now been taken to another level.

An occasional joke was okay, that's all well and good. But I've even just recently gotten comments such as "Take off your shirt and go stand on the corner, we need more people to come" (at a car wash we held last weekend). That's just degrading and rude. It may have been a joke, but I didn't find it too funny, especially since it was delivered with a condescending smile. The weekend before, at a fair for the town my school is in, one of the other girls on my team, who I happen to be good friends with, interrupted me while I was doing PR [we had our bot there, I was explaining to parents & kids alike about our robot and about FIRST], and called me over, saying "Carli, could you hold these oreos and stand in front of the tent? We need more people to buy them, and you're the hot one." Well, I was flattered by the compliment, but I'd trade being considered 'hot' for being taken seriously any day.

During build last year, every time I asked to help do something, I was told that people "didn't have time" to teach me, or that I "didn't know anything" and I should go back to doing 'other stuff'. Which brings me to another situation where a new male member of the team (joined end of school last year) commented to myself and a few other girls on the team that we should "go back to making up weird things to make us look like freaks at competitions" and "stop worrying about important things" because we didn't know anything about them, or something of the sort. What he was referring to is the fact that we're all involved in spirit and PR and such - in fact, I'm chair of Events Planning [PR, Outreach, Fundraising], one of the others is chair of Media, and the third the chair of Spirit. We earned our positions. But we do plenty more for the team as well, and we'd do even more if people didn't prevent us from doing it.

They criticize us for 'not knowing enough' yet won't teach us. So all of a sudden it's our fault that we weren't raised with a background in engineering? That we became interested in it along the way and wanted to learn? Well excuse us, we should've known better than to think girls had a place in technology. I've gotten (and still get) tons of other comments about this, year-round.. It's pretty frustrating. Now, I know that many of the comments that are made are in jest, which is fine.. I can take a joke just fine. But when it comes down to saying things that are downright cruel and crossing the line, it's not fun and games anymore. I also know that not all teams are like this. I mean, I do love my team. I just wish that they would understand that I'm not here just to look cute, that I want to learn, and though I do contribute to everything else, I want to have my hands on the robot too.

I don't want to just write chairman's, and plan events, and make cheers, wave posters. Sure, that's all fun. But I'm interested in the robot and it's mechanics, too. But I can't learn, and I never will know very much, unless someone teaches me. If i get blown off every time I ask, I make no progress. And that's not gracious professionalism. It's not a real team. I don't care what the result is, if everyone can't work together and help each other out, it's not as valuable as if the team unites. Excuse the long post, guys. Just had a lot to say on the topic =p. Ask for clarification if you need it, please don't be offended by anything, have a good day =). And please treat your teammates with respect.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I have no idea what it should be. I was only comparing to non engineering focused colleges, where the ratio is much closer to 50:50 or even skewed in favor of women.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I hope this has been your experience with other students, and none of this has come from mentors!

I assume your team is broken up along functional lines. Is there any reason why you cant be on the drive train, or electrical, or other mechanical design part of the team this year?

From my experience as a mentor, very few students really knew what they were doing when they jumped to a new subteam at the start of the build season. It was mostly up to the mentors to show them what needed to be done, show them how, get them started, and then stand back and let the students run with it.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I say no ratio. Those that are interested should pursue their desires, rather than being handed a special incentive to make things "equal" when their skill levels may not be as high as the next applicant or participant.

But that is off topic entirely. My apologies.

On our team, we have one female mentor that always encourages the girls, especially the new ones, to listen carefully to the discussions and instructions, then grab the boys' tools and push them out of the way to show that they can do it too. Its a bit of a rough theory, but it works ;)

I've never particularly had a firm spot on our team. My first year was largely animation, logo design, and, during competition season, photographing, scouting, and following Ricky. Last year, I was the human player, led some of the team meetings, painted the frame, and helped out with fundrasing and publicity as much as I was able. Both years, I picked up fairly random skills, one day I would work with 3DS Max, the next I would be welding, or soldering, or machining gearboxes, or assembling gearboxes, or using the plasma cutter, or organizing the nuts/bolts drawers.

This year, I've been working with our new FLL team and I have noticed an odd thing. Whenever the 7 boys get very involved in one aspect of the game, the 3 girls automatically withdraw to working on their research projects. The other two girls that mentor with me can't seem to get the younger girls to be quite so involved in the building process as they were for the first 2-3 weeks.

Maybe it is the lack of structure, girls want to work from a plan, guys want to freehand a project and see where it goes...I don't really have a concrete answer. What I can say is that the more passionate a girl is about a certain aspect of the team (and yes, this holds true for guys as well), the more respect she will gain from her peers and the more opportunities she will have within the team. Don't withdraw. Don't hold back. FIRST is a no-holds-barred opportunity. It is up to the students to make the most of their magnificent chance.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Carli brings up a great point. Too often, girls get left behind on FIRST teams because during the crunch of the 6 week build, people don't have enough time to teach.

Here's the problem. In general, less girls take tech courses in high school. Also, boys are more likely to develop hands on technical skills outside of school then girls are. So, a girl who joins a FIRST team, hoping to learn about engineering, is often pushed aside because she lacks these skills. When it comes to build season, FIRST teams rely on the students who can get things done quickly. So the manufacturing jobs are assigned to those who already have the appropriate skill set. In this case, it happens to be the guys. This is no good for the girls who want to be a part of this process. Now, they've been pushed aside and marginalized.

How do we fix this problem? Well, it's not simple. During the 6 week build, there often isn't time to teach hands on skills. But that's what the other 46 weeks of year are for. FIRST is a year long program. Teams need to concentrate on skills development for those who are lacking, but wanting to learn.

This year, one of our mentors Stephanie Thompson, has developed an action plan to get more girls involved with NiagaraFIRST.org. What I've outlined above are her hypotheses. The main point of action, is to set up a program whereby the girls on the team can develop "shop skills". Basically, it's an all girls program, where the girls can learn the basics about working in the shop. This way, when the build season starts, they'll be much more ready to jump in. By having it be an all girls workshop, the girls can participate and ask questions, without having to worry about being looked down on by more shop-seasoned guys.

I urge all teams to try this approach in these next few months before kickoff. It will ensure better participation, and you'll have that many more skilled workers come build season. We all know how crucial extra sets of skilled hands are for the 6 week crunch.

(BTW, These types of workshops aren't just applicable for girls. There are tonnes of guys out there with keen minds for robot design, who lack shop-skills. These guys are intimidated and pushed out of build roles in the same way girls are. Workshops like these would be great for them as well.)

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

While everything you've said is dead on with respect to girls, it also often holds true with freshmen/first year members.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I found some interesting statistics, at least for my school.

Distribution of Student Majors by Gender and Ethnicity
Engineering
Science
Applied Sciences & Arts
Social Work
University Total

Note that in engineering and science, the gender bias disappears in graduate students. Well, for the college totals at least; some of the majors are still biased.

The engineering majors (undergraduate) with the smallest biases are chemical and industrial systems. The most biased ones are mechanical and computer.

As for science, I was right about there being a large bias toward women in biology, but chemistry was close to even.

There are 3 times as many women in chemistry than chemical engineering. Oddly, computer science is 23% women, but computer engineering is only 14%.

Excluding biology, the College of Science is 29.6% women (39% with biology). The College of Engineering is 16.3% women. 70.1% women in the College of Applied Sciences and Arts. In total, San Jose State University is 50.6% women.


If you want to comb through other data, you can find an index of all the tables here.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

This post flags some of the most common problems that FIRST teams encounter - the traps we fall into.

1. When you start thinking FIRST is a robotics competition, you forget we are here to show students what a career in engineering and science will be like. When building a better robot is more important than giving a student exposure to new skills and career insight, the train has jumped the tracks and is plowing mud.

The answer to this problem is not easy. As mentors we often have to reject great robot ideas because they are too complex, and students would not be able to implement them in 6 weeks. Very often we have simplified our design so the students, new unskilled students, would be able to handle the tasks. Some of our robots turned out mediocre, but our students turned out excellent.

2. Engineering is NOT manufacturing. I say this repeatedly every year, but many teams fall into the trap of thinking engineers are machinists and wiring technicians. Engineering is the design part, figuring out what the machine will do, and how it will do it. Building the machine (in the real world) is a process of the engineers producing drawings, and machinists fabricating the parts, and usually technicians assembling them. It is good to be able to fabricate things with your own hands, but thats not what engineers do.

in fact, I always feel very uncomfortable if I have to man a drill press, or solder circuit boards, or assemble prototypes at work, because that is not what Im being paid to do. In a pinch I can, but if Im doing fabrication and assembly work all day long something is seriously wrong with the project!

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I am not going to be an Engineer when I grow up.
I am going to be a doctor.

I don't know very much about fabrication of parts, manufacture, etc.
I am always happy to discuss design.

I did not do Public Relations my first year because I was a girl.
I did Public Relations because I write well and I organize well.

I agree with Elise. There is no appropriate ratio, there is no set mark. Because of my team, I will be an Engineering major. That change in interest from some random science to Engineering major happened over the course of my Junior year. I never consciously said "I want to switch." I realized it gradually, as I met people from other teams and worked with them. I realized it as I met Engineers, I realized it as I understood the message of this program.

FIRST does not mean "For Inspiration and Recognition of Working in the Machine Shop." It means, "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology." One half of that statement is science, and I love science. 3/7 of my classes this semester are hardcore science.

I leave you with one message:
Do not try to put me behind a drill press because I am a girl and unadvantaged.
Do not assume that I am planning to pursue a career in humanities just because I have fun with PR and the activities that come with it.

Teach me to be an Engineer. I am ambitious, I am willing, but I am interested in the S in FIRST, not as much in the T. That's personal preference. We're different. That's fine. We can still work together.

- Genia

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

How true! Same here in a different area. I work in Composites. If I'm doing layup something is seriously wrong or our techs are too busy. If I'm bagging parts it is because the techs couldn't figure out how to do it. Which means it must be really hard or somebody screwed up in the design phase.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

We feel one of our missions is to provide new experiences for every kid on our team. On our team we don't let anyone stay in their comfort zone for long, boy or girl.

We have many girls on our build and drive teams. Why??

When a girl on our team says, I would rather not drill holes or drive a robot.

Guess what they are doing next meeting! :D

After that they can logically decide if they would rather build or do something else like promotions or art work.

Thats one way we make it happen on our team.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

As always, any student on a team that does a job whether it be work on the robot or work away from the robot is still very much part of the team. We try to get the art club involved on the team... mostly girls doing mostly artsy things, but there is nothing wrong with that as Beth has said. One girl on the art club even helped out with the team animation the past two year, Fantastic. The past two years I have made attempts to get the school cheerleaders to partner with us to help show spirit at competition. UCF 05, only one of the girls came from the squad and was in the stands yelling just as much as anyone else on the team. This year she has been one of the most dedicated students on the robotics team so far. I am expecting that she will keep with it this year and even start to learn some mechanical work while also showing some interest in some of the chairman's work as well.

My point being this, Robotics is full of jobs for everyone; Come for the desk work, stay for the build.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I agree that there are some people that still undermine girls in FIRST. I dont agree with the people that say mechanical stuff is for the guys on the team, an the spirit stuff is for the girls! That's not what were here for! We're here to work together on things, as a team, an a team should be doing stuff together. Any girl, whether she is a cheerleader, or dancer on a team can get involved with the mechanics. I know i'm more of the spirited type of girl on my team an want to dance at competitions an i do, but i also get involved with the desgin phase and mechanics. My team allows that, granted some of our older engineers dont like it, because we dont have much expierence, but i'm willing to share the knowledge that i have with them, if they are willing to share their knowledge with me. As of last year i was starting to get involved with the desgin an build team by weighing the robot parts, making prototypes, and even coming up with ideas for our robot desgin. I enjoy the mechanics in FIRST an i'm only willing to learn more. I even get involved with chairman's and the animation, i want to go into web desgin as my major, and it sounds like so much fun. But for those people that dont approve of that really should change their minds about letting girls do work in the shop. They are just as capable as doing anything guys are doing. I would like to see the girls out there that want to be given the chance to work in a shop an have people be proud of what they accomplished, it means a lot to someone. :D

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

The mentors have not been biased, though occasionally one of them has some rude and sexist comments. He's always joking though, and we know that though it's sometimes offensive anyway. However, if I ask him to explain something to me, he always does, if he can. The problem is, sometimes anyway, that the mentors are willing to help but simply don't have the time. They're juggling their own jobs outside of FIRST, or the student mentors are trying to deal with the pressures of college, and when they're there they just don't have as much time for that kind of stuff. As far as I'm concerned, it's more the job of the upperclassmen to teach younger students what they don't know. But I'm a junior now - my third year on the team - and I still haven't learned very much about the actual building and such. There really isn't a reason why I can't be on the drive train, or electrical, or mechanical design 'part' of the team... except that I'm just not qualified. That's my goal for this year, is to be involved in all of that. And be able to do it myself. Without other people telling me, "Okay, now connect the red here to the red there, and then this black to that black." I want to understand what I'm doing, not just do it. And that requires knowing some things in advance.

Problem at my highschool is that we don't really offer any tech courses for anyone. We used to have a metal shop, but it got cut from the budget long ago. The only courses I really found that were at all similar to robotics were programming courses, which I considered but wasn't sure I was ready to take on this year with the rest of my (pretty heavy) workload.

I noticed that while I was posting the first time. Most freshmen don't get quite as much verbal abuse though. But that's what it's like for a lot of the girls - being like freshmen interminably.

And to comment on what Genia said, don't get me wrong, I do thoroughly enjoy doing writing and PR and organizing for the team, and I'm good at it... I'd just like to do more. I'm not saying every girl does, but if they do, they should be encouraged.

And finally, to Oz, that's an awesome policy you guys have. That's exactly the type of attitude that's perfect for FIRST. Congratulations =).

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Im wondering how many engineers you have on your team, because you seem to be focused on the building and tool/wrench stuff.

Nobody at your HS is qualified to be an engineer, unless they went to college for 4 years and then decided they wanna do HS again?

Many people have the mistaken impression that engineering is building stuff. Engineering happens between your ears. Engineering is:

1. you are presented with a problem that needs to be solved
2. you clearly define what the problem is (why the task needs to be done, and what the task is)
3. then you figure out how to best solve the problem - the most effecient and elegant way to provide a solution

the rest is all nuts and bolts stuff, trivial really compaired to 1-3 above.

For example, my daughter was on a FIRST team for 3 years, and for a technology class she participated in something they called the 'sumo car competition'. Each team had two students, they were given motors and gears and some basic parts, and they had to build a small car like vehicle.

the competiton took place on a 5' diameter round table. Two teams played against each other for 60 seconds. The team that was closest to the center at the end won. Kind of a king of the hill (table) pushing contest.

Every other team at her school, and in this part of the state immediately latched onto the 'pushing contest' aspect, and designed cars with drive trains that were geared way down, big high traction tires or tank treads, and a plow or bush-wacker on the front.

My daughter did not have all these preconceived notions, had taken advanced physics, and looked at how much energy the little motor and batteries they had to use could produce? Not much it turns out. If you are head to head with someone else, all the energy you have is what you can draw from the motor/battery

but she knew about kinetic energy and momentum. Her team designed a car that was fast, geared up, and the front was shaped like a wedge.

At the HS competition all the other matches consisted of two opponents starting at opposite sides of the table, slowly going after each other, pushing and shoving for 60 seconds, and the one with the best traction usually held the center of the table. The first match she played, she hit the switches at T=0, her car flew across the table in about 2 seconds, smacked the other car and sent it flying to the floor. All the other students had a jaw-dropping experience.

Her team won at the HS competition, and they won at the upstate competition. Every match she played lasted about 2 seconds.

The point is, engineering is all about the concept. If you grab the kit of parts right after the kickoff and start building something, you are doomed.

And being creative and thinking out of the box very often comes from girls, because all of this is new to them, and they dont have any preconceived notions about how a robot should function.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

there is always going to be this problem. we try so hard to get other girls involved but it is up to them. you can push someone so much but it depends on them to be active and do something.. we started the RCU to help inspire girls to be in science, math and technology related fields but we support them in any direction they take while being in FIRST and in life...

some like me love to work on the machines and build the robot...others like Beth and Genia said like working on the paperwork, public relations things. it is up to the indivual.

but yes machining and engineering are not the same.
the issue with girls not knowing the tools is an issue i know, that's why my mother developed Girls Camp. It is a program just for girls to learn how to use the tools and some machines. There aren't any guys to be there as "pressure". i was the lead machinest for the past 2 years. my mentor actually told me at times he rather have some girls because of the fine details we pay attention to. girls and guys can do the same thing. the guys might be stronger for example but i always found a way to solve that problem w/ making sure things were tight on the machine. now i had to stand on a chair all the time when switching out the chucks on the Bridgeport back in S.P.A.M.'s pit but that's okay.

i sit in class everyday with not many girls because yes i'm studying engineering. mechanical engineering to be exact. my engineering chemistry lab has only 2 girls in there and the rest are 20 guys. the ratio is small. but the ratio is changing.

but i just have to say do what you want to do..if it's something related to engineering and working in the pit go for it. i know at times girls can be shy about it all. at first i will say was intimidate by all the guys but at the time S.P.A.M. was a very small team when i first started and the mentors were really nice and upperclassman and showed me things. last year i tried to get girls on our team to be on the machines they didn't want to..i didn't pressure them because i know at times pressuring becomes discouraging..they will learn when/if they want to.

each team will face this problem. how they overcome it is different. there will always be those people that think girls should be at home taking care of the kids. some families have the mom working and the dad at home. it's is the way our society is. things are changing slowly but it takes time. older generations still influence us a bit. it is also how we have grown up and what we are exposed to. as my old math teacher once said it's the sterotype...girls generally get dolls to play and the guys get truck and blocks. as a young child as studies shown these affect us...our motor skills, what we like and what we dislike... some have the insight to the way things works other just perhaps know what it looks like or not....

but all and all... girls can do anything...and so can guys. if guys want to be in fashion design and sew well by all means go for it...if a girl wants to build a car..go for it too...

everyone just do what you want to do and believe in yourself...good luck to everyone in life...

i hope more girls do end up in engineering and working in the pits but if they don't want to do that..it's all good to me...

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I first want to say this is a great thread, and some really great comments on it.

Wow, its a lot to digest too. We did come to the hypothesis that it is too late to interest girls in science & technology in high school (at least in terms of recruiting). That it must be done in that pre-teen phase discussed earlier, where girls are influenced by what other girls are doing. So we started an all girls lego league team.

I also do know of a girl who was told by her teacher that he wanted her to "help with the spirit and organizing the team" and to not work on the robot. That completely disgusted me. I tell everyone on our team that they can work on or try anything they want. We havent come far enough to enforce that EVERYONE try everything, but last year, every other team meeting was a sort of seminar on either, electrical, mechanical, CAD, programming, etc... so everyone got a little exposure to a lot of it.

The cool thing on our team is that last year, the ENTIRE leadership team of mentors was female. I was the team leader, our teacher was a female and past industrial engineer, our second in command was a female electrical engineer like myself. So I think we formed some pretty good role models :)

However, I will take the other side of the fence for a minute, and say that most females are more creative and more organized than the guys. (Im NOT saying guys arent creative or organized, its just both a genetic & environmentally induced thing). And in the real world of engineering/business most top executives are male... this is generally from the motherly instinct. Society & nature has deamed the mothers the caregivers and the fathers the breadwinners. Its the same in many animals as well.

The other thing that females have to deal with is that once out of high school it is much easier to get into college & to get a job as female engineers. However, once they start taking classes or working, its often the reverse that happens. Many people will think they either "just got in because they are girls" or "don't belong in the profession." Ive dealt with both situations. Both are incredibly discouraging.

Even with me, while I love engineering, getting hands on and knowing the technical, I also tend to be better at organizing things than many guys in my department. That is why they asked me to be key recruiter (not because HR is a girl thing, but because my boss called me "the most organized person he had ever met" *if he could only see my office right now! lol*).

I guess in the end, my thought would be that we should ALWAYS encourage the girls (and new students) to try everything. Even if they dont like it, at least they tried it. I wont ever physically drag a girl away from the spirit team because girls should "do more than spirit," though. Because in the end, the FIRST experience isnt just about the robot. Inspiration can be in many areas, it can be in engineering, but it can also be in leadership, organization, finance, business, etc! FIRST builds "the leaders of tomorrow" not just the "engineers of tomorrow."

So every girl should have the same opportunities and encouragement as every guy does.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Ive usually been on the electical team as a mentor, but Ive always been close friends with the mechanical engineers on the team, and theres a couple things we have observed over the years.

Guys are more likely to have mechanical experience. They are more likely to take their bicycles apart when they are kids, tinker with lawn mower engines, help dad change the oil in the car, and get all that black grease and oil all over them. Thats just the way things are in our culture.

But heres the thing: guys learn a lot of bad habits this way, they are more likely to use brute force on something, they are more likely to grab a hand drill when they should be using a drill press, more likely to wack a bearing with a hammer when they should be using an arbor press

but girls on FIRST teams, who work on the mechanical subteams, have to learn most things from scratch, and as a result, they learn from the mentors how to do things right. Metal fabrication in a shop is done with power tools, powerfull machines that have motors up to 10HP. You dont force a professional machine tool, you need a light touch on the controls. If a bit is dull a guy is more likely to pull on the handle with both hands (and bugger up the work), while a girl is more likely to take the bit and get it sharpened.

There is absolutely no doubt that girls can do excellent machine shop work. We tend to forget what happend from 1940 to 1945, when most of the men in the US went off to war, and the women stepped up to the plate, and built the tanks and jeeps and aircraft that won the war.

So ironically, if girls on the team are willing to overcome the fear of trying something new, the fear of messing things up, they often end up being better machinists than the guys, because they are learning to do things the right way, and they dont have the attitude of "I all ready know how to use powertools..."

and BTW, when you work on old cars and bikes and motors you get all dirty and greasy, but when you fabricate new machine parts in a shop, everything is shiney and clean and new. I love the smell of machine oil in the morning :^)

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

None, as a matter of fact. We've got a team parent who is a tile guy, but quite handy, and we've got a machinist that volunteers to help us out as well. Personally, I love it this way. The kids get far more input from what I can tell - I've heard many stories about how engineers, especially when provided by sponsors, will take over a robot and make it their own, instead of belonging to the kids on the team. I like that my team becomes more innovative and thrifty with random parts because we don't have engineers to help us make things perfect and such. We learn the hard way, but I'd say overall we learn a whole lot more. The problem to me is, that when I say 'we,' I mean those who are actually participating in building the robot. Which unfortunately, at the moment, does not include myself. Or any girls, really.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Yes...it is the way in our culture but it doesn't have to be. When I was young...I took everything apart. It was years later when I told my parents what I did with their electrical equipment. The difference was....when I took it apart....I put the pieces on the floor the way I dismantled things...thus...I was able to put things back together and no one knew. I am sure that I was not the only girl who was doing the same thing.

Again...yes it is our culture....as educated adults...do we have to permeate this? It is up to us to change things. Viva la revolucion!

What Tiffany wrote is correct....there is a Harry Chapin song...."boys are taught to reach for the sky....girls are taught to reach as high as the cupboard...." these lyrics has been very influential when I was raising my kids....Barbie dolls and dance classes were banned from Tiffany's wish list and extra-curricular activities...now LEGO's, Brio's and truck..oh my..oh yeah were accepted....she did not get her first doll house until first grade...yes I know...bad mom....depriving her of the influence of the gender stereotyping.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

That reminds me, I used to fear the "girl" stereotype so I used to secretly steal my dad's toolbox and lock myself up in a room to take apart my table/chair set over and over. It was the only thing I could take apart without my parents noticing but I think they noticed anyway and didn't mind.

Also, not to say that there's anything wrong with them, but I stopped playing Barbie's around the age of 4 or 5. They bored me because I couldn't do anything with them (actually thinking back, I don't think I ever did play with them...I got yelled at for neglecting them and not bothering to put their clothes on...too tedious...). Instead I enjoyed Lego's, the computer, and my keyboard. Those were the fine days...

To add to some of the issues brought up here. I definitely agree that workshops are beneficial. But as Ken brought up, a lot of engineering has to do with the though process. It'd be nice to encourage everyone to bring up their ideas and be assertive. I understand that all these qualities are not inborn but we live in a nature AND nurture environment. It can be cultivated. This isn't just a girl issue but I think it happens a lot with girls because they are afraid of being knocked down by boys because...well it's majority versus minority.

Also I would like to point out that many people felt that "it just wasn't a women's thing" to do humanity jobs and then science related and math related...but slowly that changed. I'm not insinuating that the same WILL happen with engineering but it's possible. In due time, we will see whether it's a gender schema or not. I personally feel it's the skills that are shown that make a difference. Girls have attain these skills or simply have them just as much as boys can. Those that agree, I'm glad, those that do not, well...we'll see =).

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I think this used to be a problem with the TechnoKats. I think girls think that robitics is such a "guy's thing" that they don't want to deal with it. I'm glad to see that there have been a few girls on our team that have challenged that predisposition. The Technokats have "Girls nights at the shop" where there are no boys allowed except for adults. And this Wednesday (I believe) we will have local girl scout troops come to our shop. I think it's a great thing our team is doing to try to get girls interested. I think it's sad that robotics seems to be mainly guys.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Well all I can add to this thread is if you let them participate and give everyone the opportunity they will learn. Gender should not be a criteria of differentiation. Our team has always had a pretty good 50:50 split between male and female but that is by design since our team motto has always veiwed diversity as a strong point and gender so happens to be one of those metrics. We will always try to give the students their first choice of interest but if we beleive that a particular student would benefit being in a particular role we'll encourage them to try it out.

Every year I find a student that I will tend to mentor more just because he/she is willing to take the initiative to work with me. If they are willing to invest their time with me I will in return do all I can do to help them achieve the most out of this program.

Team members with initiative would prove to be best value you can have on a team.

Ellery

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I've already read through countless posts like this since I joined FIRST ~6 years ago.... and I feel the same way now as I did then. (and this goes for guys and girls)

The only way you can be undermined is if you let yourself be undermined.

Talking and hoping others will help you won't always get you where you want. If you want something... go for it. Be persistant and you will get your chance. (ie-The Little Engine That Could)

(Also, you will appreciate and learn from the experience all the more because you had to work for it and it wasn't just given to you on a silver platter.)

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I hope we are doing things right. We had an all female electrical team last year and many were returning members. The mentors on the team try to watch over each other's shoulder to make sure things are fairly distributed and all members are treated equally. I know that we might slip once in a while but we encourage females on the team to do whatever they want. The CDI event that took place was an all female team, and those girls learned everything about the robot and shocked their parents that they were using power tools and were helping other teams at the competition.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Last year we had 4 girls. One of them was team capitan but tended more towards the chairmans etc sides out of choice along with another of the girls., another was a whizz at cad and graphics stuff, and did a lot of stuff for other things including welding and cutting etc, not so much on the first bot but on our other things like the featherweight competition. Then finally there was one girl who would do just about anything she could, more towards the bui;lding side. we tended to let people do what they wanted as long as they did something.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I completely agree with this. Because society tends to impede girls' ability to gain appreciation for fields/realms,that are otherwise considered "just for guys" (e.g. Tiffany's example that girls are introduced to gender-stereotyping at a young age, with their playthings), the only way to reverse this is to disprove these misconceptions and encourage and empower girls. What better place to do so than in FIRST?

I think such a policy is very helpful in preventing members from dismissing a certain aspect of the team based on their own generalizations. I know from personal experience and from recruiting in my school, that a little support and a push in that direction goes a long way.

Though I can't share an opinion about being undermined by a fellow member of the team, I can my experience as a member on an all girls team: If we did not provide an effort to encourage all members when it comes to working on the robot, we might not have many girls that are currently on the team (myself included); paired with the fact that they're are no boys on our team anyway, our teams existence would be questionable :ahh:

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

we've had both kinds of girls on my team - the kind that are actually working on the robot, and the kind that do clerical work or team spirit stuff. Most of the girls on the team now are more spiriters than workers. There are only maybe 9 or 10 girls that are on our team of 50+. Out of the 5 senior girls, I'm the only one to have ever even taken a tech class. Girls have always been in the minority on our team. We've never had a female president (captain). That's just the way things worked out. We don't take the role that we do because we are girls. There are plenty of guys on our team that are more team oriented than robot oriented. There's nothing wrong with that, no matter what gender you are. Our girls choose the parts they play on our team. You all seem to be thinking that it's a bad thing to be more on the spirit side of things, but that is a crucial part of any team. My team, team 174, did well both on and off of the field last season. We came in 6th place and won the team spirit award at the Buckeye Regional. Not every girl wants to be a driver or a programmer. On our team it's a choice. Personally, I'd rather be the mascot again than working in the pit.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Ditto-

I am tired of having guys get the bad rap simply because they are guys. If you step up and make a place for yourself on the team nobody can stand in your way. But nobody is owed anything and it takes a little assertion. I'd rather see a hard working team of all girls than a bunch of useless boys any day.

WC

Grr! :cool:

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

My opinion is everyone should be given choice, girls or boys. Girls should be allowed to play with dolls or legos, whatever interests them. Guys should be able to play with dolls or legos too. Taking away the choices children already have is not the same as giving them new ones. You wouldn't forbid your son from playing with legos and force him to play with dolls just because boys are (in our culture, at least) less interested in them, would you?

EDIT: Fixed a simple grammatical error

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

hey I played with dolls when I was a kid:

Major Matt Mason

GI Joe

Little green army guys

:^)

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

No crying dolls or Barbies, eh? :]

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I used to disassemble crying dolls does that count?
My sister wasn't very happy about it.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Disassembling... AH!....the launch pad to robotics.....take it apart to see how something works .....that is one of the fun part of having toys...but moms may not have agreed though. :]

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

OK so being male I wanted to get an accurate opinion both from my perspective and that of a female at our school. We've concluded that to some extent is its due to both genders. Some males do have the mentality that girl and engineer do not compute. partially this is a regional and cultural aspect on the male side.

In our area she has not had any complaints in terms of this area however I went to a local Best buy and while I saw lots of girls working their none worked at the geek squad desk (just a simple example of a technical career). So this brings me to the duality of it all, females apply a limit to themselves also. Both personally and on other woman, though this isn't helped by the fact males tend be repelled by intelligent females (especially if they are smarter then the guy :D ). I know that our team has numerous girls (around 15) though we are a big team (79 kids).

I'm not sure I agree with the idea the idea that woman are more creative or even better caregivers (im not saying that you are wrong but that its not even close to being a universal truth). Its too close to a blanket statement. I do agree that in many careers a man doesn't have to work as hard to succeed, but thats not entirely do to social prejudice. I would like to point out their are plenty of animals in the wild where the males are caregivers, seahorses come to mind. And I'm not sure thats even indicative of humanity. I think humans have diverged quite a bit from traits that animals posses enough that our nature is very unique in many cases, even where we have unique feelings like modesty.

In fact looking at my fellow students I think that something like creativity, organization, and basic instincts can be interchangeable as creativity seems to be equally devoid in both sexes in most of my classes (you should hear a literary discussion in English, its the only time where its quiet enough for me to sort all my thoughts :rolleyes: ). To some factor genetics and bodily chemicals apply but only to a point.

Again as Ive said I believe this to be a regional thing, and this is all just an opinion based on what Ive viewed from my school and region and this all probably changes depending on where you are (which is why it's impossible to make a generalization unless you live everywhere) and what you do or have done. From the point of a large high school, in a wealthy area, in Virginia the social stigma is very rare and what of it that does exist is normally unconscious.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Okay, I know this post hasn't been active in a while, but whatever.

It's my turn I guess to share a ...different perspective of 1089 from Carli's. There are things that I agree with that she said, but there are also many facets of the team that I think are sliding underneath her horizon.

Carli makes a good point in saying that the girls on 1089 aren't often taught about the engineering and tech facets of the team because of time constraints. Like Karthik said, it is a lot easier to pass off the responsibilities to the people that know what they're doing, but I think that often, it's because the girls haven't asked for that responsibility. Maybe that's because they don't know enough to perform it well, but that's another story.

I would like to see the girls learn more so they can be more involved, but I don't think it's appropriate for the girls to expect to be taught during the build season. Things are crazy and hectic as we all know, and though teaching is important, it isn't always the priority. Sure, we all know that a major part of FIRST is teaching and inspiring kids to get involved, that's the real reason I'm still attempting to mentor my team, but we have 52 weeks to teach and only 6 of those weeks to build and create and do the majority of pre-competition strategizing.

My first year on the team, 2003, I came in with basic tool knowledge (ie knowing the difference between a wrench and a hammer) and that was about it. I learned about gear ratios, sprocket & chain drive trains, pneumatics, torque, physics, center of gravity and a lot of other things. The point of this little anecdote is that I learned all these things because I pushed myself to be involved. I kept asking questions and asking to help.

A lot of the time our team will say "not right now" or "in a minute" and the girls will leave to do other tasks. The problem is, leaving the scene doesn't allow anyone to teach when they have the free time. It shouldn't and CAN'T be the responsibility of the robot tech committee to find the interested students and teach them, it should be the responsibility of the person who wants to learn to be there waiting.

Sure, there are other things that could be done in that wait period, but maybe bring them with you, or schedule them for another time. Sometimes waiting is inevitable, and if that's the functionality of our team, so be it. I don't believe anyone on our team has ever flat out REFUSED to teach anyone. We might not be the most efficient or productive team, but I don't believe we are being "unprofessional" or "ungracious" by not jumping at the drop of the hat to teach.

Sometimes the girls are undermined because of inappropriate comments. There are harassment issues on our team, yes, but those are slowly being dealt with (and I really hope getting better). I also think that a lot of what Carli is talking about is a personal issue with one or two specific members of our team, and not something to drag the entire team through the mud with.

Lastly, I don't think it's wrong to want to be more involved with the team, but I think it's important for Carli (and everyone else on our team) to realize they have other responsibilities. If Carli choses to chair a committee, then she needs to take care of those things before she worries about learning about the drive train, electronics, pneumatics, etc. A lot of the time Carli will ask a question and leave to work on her committee responsibilities. That to me says she does not have the appropriate time to learn from robot tech. I would say the same about anyone else on the team as well, myself included.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

This is just a friendly reminder to avoid writing inappropriate remarks about others here on the forums. If someone is incorrect about a fact, by all means, correct them, but please be aware that there is very little about this thread that is unequivocally fact and it is important that we respect the potential for varying interpretations of certain circumstances.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I would say that most of the girls at my school are either to embarssed to join or just think its wierd for girls to be in robotics.I have tried to get my friends that are girls to join and i just got laughed at and the pictures in the trash can in little pieces. i figured it was stupid that they did that but oh well.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

All the girls on our team have wanted to do PR work, and as head of PR that is fine with me. We do a lot of work and any help we can get is appreciated. I think it's awesome for women to take an interest at all in a male dominated field. It's a real problem if men are forcing them out of engineering aspects, but it's the same if you assume women should be taking more of an interest in building than PR.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Girls are as much of an asset to any team just as much as guys are (unless of course they freak out when they get coolent on their hands and run out of the shop :D ). But being serious, there is no difference with our team, there are girls that know how to machine way better than I do (the same with guys). If there are any teams that find girls to be less of an asset, I simply say that it would be a great idea to take a step back and give them a chance.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

The boy to girl ratio on Cyber Blue this year is 6:5!!! I'm so happy that more girls at our school see that robotics is amazing!! And, we helped start an all girls team this summer!!

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Why are all these threads about girls being treated unfairly cropping up now?

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

I have a couple of thoughts about it. Nothing more than an opinion though.
School is back in session or getting back in session and that kind of triggers the begin cycle - enter, check in CD, see what's going on - and sometimes maybe often, if you are experiencing a problem or asking questions in your team about different aspects, you will search in CD and see if any threads have addressed the topic.

Girls on robotics teams is something that is discussed and sometimes it can be difficult to be a lone girl or a very small group of girls - so they search and find threads, post a thought and it goes from there. Maybe someone has a new thought they add or a new poster has never seen the thread and adds. This happens in all topics but sometimes at the beginning of school and the beginning of build season you will see some of these threads crop up. It isn't a bad thing, it is a good thing. For example, I get very excited when I see programming discussions. Programmers on many teams don't often have much time to get done what they want or need to so it is always good to see how teams address programming and what their thoughts are. It doesn't take away from the other aspects of the robot, just as the discussion of girls doesn't take away from the other members or aspects of the team. Discussion, communication, exploring topics is always good when done well and handled appropriately.

Just a thought. :)
Jane

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

It will be a miracle the day this world looks at Girls and guys on the same level in the "Engineering World."

Now my personal opinion (This maybe a little harsh and I will try to be as nice as possible about this topic):

Guys, women think a lot different than we do. If they have their mind set on something, they will keep working on it until they get it right or until they get it done the way they want it. If a girl wants to build the robot... let them. In my experience, I have mentored teams where the group consisted guys and girls and honestly, the girls I have worked with are heck of a lot dedicated than the guys I have worked with. I personally hate it when I see a girl get pushed away just because she is a "girl." I refuse to pass any knowledge onto any guy who refuses to work with a girl.

Solution? We can come up with as many as we want, but in this society of engineering where male are dominating, it's hard. It depends on individuals how they treat a woman.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

#1) I agree with Jane about traffic into CD rising at the beginning of school. I don't have access to the site analytics but personal observation sez things have upticked a good bit here with the beginning of school. And this is an long running thread.

#2) In my lifetime women have made dramatic inroads into law and medicine (and other fields). In the old days women didn't enter many fields because they essentially couldn't. Today, we are struggling to bring women participation in engineering and science on par with law and medicine.

I'm going to make a statement that would not have been 'PC' 35 years ago with the womens movement, but the normative woman and normative man are different and respond to a little different motivational career stimulus. Wow. It is important to understand the differences.

Last year we were 2/3 young women, and as of now the new team is almost perfectly 50/50. Using a combination of recommendations from something called the EWEP, our 'guest program', social networking, and working to make sure everyone gets a cookie things have managed to work out. So far, so good.

Nothing against the young men on our team, but without the young women we would not have achieved what we did last year. These young women have the focus and the drive to keep things on track and get done what needs to get done. It was truly a team effort.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

Two years ago at Atlanta, our team was asked if they were from an all-girls school. No ...

And then it dawned on them. The drive team, the most visible portion of a team, was all female, including a female engineer coach. The male driver we had used all year was ineligible to travel because of grades, and another girl was the best choice to fill out the team.

Re: Girls are still undermined?
 

it does not happen on my team i am a girl and i am the captian of the team and the head mechanical person