Restrictive Environment From School
 

Our school district is very closeminded about what students should be allowed to do on their computers. While they have given every student a laptop we are not allowed to do anything with them. We run in a very restricted mode were only certain apps are allowed to be run such as IE, Office, and a few other school related programs, we can not use any standard windows programs such as Explorer(for files) or the Start Menu(we use some Novell program we call "the box" to launch our programs), a school administrator has to approve and install hardware we can not do it ourselves, programs is another questionable thing since they do not allow anything to be installed without approval and think everything needs a site licence including open source software. Comming from a long Linux programming background I think there is no way our programming team will be able to do anything other then basic control in this sort of environment.

Before I goto the school and tell them this there are a couple things I am wondering. First of all does anything programming wise require to be running in administrative mode? Because everyone on the programming team runs Linux at home and are thus alot better at using a Linux environment how should I approch the school about dual-booting with Linux and which distro(we all use Gentoo)? How would you approch the school about this?

Thanks

nuke

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

While I don't recommend or endorse this, you can just resize the partition with a boot disk and install whatever *nix flavor on the expanded space. Do keep in mind that there could be repercussions for you if you do this, depending on your school's technology policy.

On the other hand, you might want to just approach the principal with several members from your team and explain the situation that you're in and the need for free access to any number of programs during the build and competition seasons. Just ask to see him/her after school one day, and if your principal has any logic, he should approve the request.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

If the computers belong to the school, and every student is allowed to use one, then you clearly need separate computers for the teams programmers.

You dont need much of a PC or laptop for FIRST robotics programming. Our team used a 133MHz Pentium Thinkpad for a couple years, before they switched the link to USB.

It might be less hassle to get your hands on a couple cheap laptops for the team programmers. That way you can do what you want with them, and there wont be any issues with the school.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Well I go to the same school as nukem. We do not have access to the BIOS. So a boot disk wont work without other methods. As nukem said, we do not have administrative access on our laptops and probably will not get them even if we asked the school. As far as buying cheap latops. I dont know if we even have the funds for that this year. But its not a bad idea. So if anyone has any more ideas please tell us.

Thanks

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

i really dont know what im talking about but i think it might help. Would it be possible to just boot from a floppy and go from there?

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

contact your senior mentor, Paul Kloberg.
pkloberg@usfirst.org

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

It could be that the BIOS has been set to boot first from the hard disk, before any removable media. The only way to change that setting would be to manually reset the BIOS password (with a jumper) and that would probably be entering the realm of illegality since the laptops are technically the property of the school...

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Find out if any of your teammates parents have any laptops to lend, or better yet, donate to the team, of if there are any local businesses who would donate any laptops.

Heidi

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Just be straightfoward with your request and give reasons why your request should be granted. If it's rejected, then the wise thing to do is just to walk away from the problem and find an alternate solution.

But you could use the Knoppix Live-CD, just put the CD in, power on the computer and keep pressing the C button; for most computers this forces it to boot from CD. F button for Floppy, if you were wondering as well. Although, I wouldn't recommend doing this since the administration could get very angry.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

whats your teams funding situation? If your going to write your own custom code for the Bot (as opposed to using the default code, like many teams do), then you need at least one PC

ask the students, ask the mentors, ask parents, ask your sponsors. Certainly someone must have an old laptop they can donate, or at least loan to the team for a few months.

If nothing else, theres always ebay! :^)

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Instead of trying to find ways around school policies, why not just get the school on your side. Most school districts install software onto their computers by imaging them anyway. So, tell them to build you regular image (without Novell and all that junk) that you can use for the build season and do whatever you want with it, then after build season when they want their laptop back, they can just reimage it to what it was before. If they are supportive enough to give you laptops, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to make them functional for you.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

I dont know what experience you have had with your school in the past, specifically with the CIO or whoever is in charge of the technology but you might be surprised. When our team first approached the district about getting some programs installed (or finishing compile and burnign a cd with the animation during the middle of a school vacation) they helped with open arms. I know that my first experience with the techs were they helped in any way possibble. They found what we were doing so interesting that they wanted to get involved. When they found out how knowledgeable a few members were with technology they actually offered us jobs working for the district.

Now they have given us laptops, desktops, a webcam and any software we needed. I have been working for them for 4 years now and youd be surprised they are just as normal (or strange dependign on your view) as us. :D

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Your point is very well presented!

I work in a very large health care organization. In fact, it is the single largest HMO in the country. I work very closely with the IT department although I do not work directly for them.
The IT infrastructure here similar to what NUKEM described in that it is very restrictive. Believe me, there are many VERY GOOD reasons that it is this way. The interesting thing is, there are basically two groups of people that don't like it: The technically inept that feel they are being restricted by those in power, and, the technically adept that know what their needs are and can fully explain it.

I'll give you one guess as to which of these groups actually end up getting the access and applications they need. All it takes is explaining your needs and justifying your request. In fact, as 527point said, he found that they were so impressed with the teams knowledge and understanding of the technical side of their request that the IT wonks actually went out of their way to help out. It is my experience as well that most IT people love to have, and help out, users that truly understand what they are doing.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

This is the kind of thing that my team would not tolerate. It seems to me a total waste of $$ to buy each student laptops with such restrictions. If they lock you our of the bios and it is only configured to boot off the HD then pop out the HD and pop in into another computer and modify whatever you want. I would wipe it and install *nix or a fresh windows install. Or you could do dual boot if you need all the school stuff. You can buy a 40-44pin IDE adapter that will allow you to put a 2.5" laptop drive in a desktop computer. If you want to unlock the bios, many bioses have backdoor passwords. If yours doesn't laptops occasionally have a pins you can short or a jumper to clear the bios but not usually. If all else fails, build yourself an EEPROM programmer and find the appropriate image.

We had some similar probs in my computer science class. We went to the county IT dept and they said they had no problem making any changes. Well, time passed and no changes were ever made. We took matters into our own hands and "obtained" the Novel, and DeepFreeze passwords and made the appropriate changes.

Now depending on the level of incompetence in your county, this probably isn't the best approach.

They might not like it but if i were you, i would either buy my own hardrive and swap it out when needed or set up dual boot.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Wow. This is possibly one of the most inappropriate and ill-conceived pieces of advice I have seen on these forums in quite a while. Let's just check through what is being advocated here:
- The county has been generous enough to provide each student with a laptop computer. In response, it is suggested that you abuse the implicit trust that has been granted, and try to break their systems.
- The computers belong to the county, and are not the personal property of the students. The response? Recommend that the students remove the hard drives (not their property) and use them - illegally - in alternate computers.
- Against the obvious design and use requirements implemented by the computer owners, we find the recommendation to purge the operating system and install a new one that is in conflict with the installed configuration.
- Illegally obtain a backdoor password and use it to defeat the legitimately installed software system.
- If all else fails, permanently overwrite the original configuration, rendering it unable to be utilized as intended by the system owner. But that's OK, because now you can use a computer that is not yours for a purpose for which the owner has not granted permission, for an activity that is acknowledged to be something that "they might not like."

Normally, I might let something like this pass, or limit it to a background discussion. However, when such a blatant and irresponsible post is made, it cannot be left alone. What is being advocated here is a violation of trust, an abuse of privilege, a disreputable behavior, and a borderline criminal activity. It is just plain wrong. To let this go unchallenged - in a forum in which we all profess to support professional and responsible behaviors - would be wrong.

The original question asked for constructive suggestions for dealing with what were felt to be onerous limitations on the use of provided resources. It is reasonable for us to expect that a community like this could come up with a set of reasonable options for "working within the system" to get the situation corrected (e.g. the suggestions from Sanddrag and 527Point). If such solutions cannot be articulated, then it might be reasonable to identify alternate resources to achieve the real end goal (access to an appropriate programming environment for robot code development). It is likewise reasonable to expect that all of these responses can and should be made with full consideration of the property and ownership rights of the suppliers of the computer. To see a reponse to this query that is so contrary to the values and principles of this community is disturbing.

As an analogy, when a corporation provides funding and/or support for a team, it is incumbent upon the team to utilize those resources in a manner consistent with the constraints under which they were provided. If a sponsor provides several thousand dollars to fund a team, but states that the team can only use the funds to pay registration fees and procure materials, the team does NOT have the right to say "screw that, we are using this money to pay travel expenses so we can all go to the cool regional competition in Anchorage." If they did that, the sponsor would be entirely within their rights to demand a complete refund of all the provided funding, and urge that such an irresponsible team be terminated immediately.

What is being advocated above is no less egregious a violation of trust than the analogous example. If the provided advice is followed, the county would be perfectly justified in shutting down the team and punishing the perpetrators appropriately.

My purpose here is NOT to flame the author of this suggestion. Rather, I believe that this should be used as an example from which to learn. We all need to understand what professional behavior is all about. Occasionally, that also means that we have to understand when we have crossed over the line. This is just such an example. We need to expect better behavior from ourselves if this community is going to survive and thrive. And when we do cross over the line, we need to bring ourselves up short and correct the situation.

-dave

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

I MUST agree with Dave. Before I had even finished reading the post I was getting ready to respond. It seems that some here feel that it is OK to do what they wish as long as it suits their needs. Some of these people are the same ones that say GP is alive and well and that teams should be trusted to follow the rules and given the benefit of the doubt.

When ever someone trusts us with their property we should handle that property better that we would our own. On our team I have been loaned some laptops. I was given permission to erase the hard drives and put what ever I want on them. I must return them with the same operating system on them when they were given to me. The team has been instructed to make sure that the laptops are locked up at all times. These are conditions that were given to me at the time they were loaned. I even use my work laptop with a few more restrictions. We as a team are thankful for what we have been entrusted with and we don't want to lose the privilege of using these laptops.

To encourage someone to "break the rules" is NEVER a good solution. We should always work within the rules and not look for ways to "legally" break them.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

While I can't disagree with Dave, I think he is missing an even bigger issue. Not only could the school punish the offending students, but you are potentially committing crimes that could have very serious consequences.

If you talk to your IT folks and can't get anywhere, contact Paul Kloberg and I know he'll help. Contact other teams in your area and see if you can someone to demo thier robot to the powers that be and emphasize the importance of being able to program the robot to do what it does. If that doesn't work, go to that administration.

At that point, there are still a few options. Find someone to donate/lend a laptop. Work at home and find someone that can lend a laptop long enough to download code. Find a local team that will let you borrow thier laptop. Finally, if absolutely necessary, go to the parents and sponsors, explain the situation and have them go to the school board.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

As far as the legality of doing what was suggested by Rickertsen, I point you to the Klutztown incident.

Basically, the Klutztown school district issued iBooks to all high school students. Naturally, they had a lot of restrictions. However, the password they had used for the administration system was written on every single serial number label (on the bottom of the iBook.) Naturally, about 80-100 students abused this and removed all administration software from their iBooks.

These students were charged with Computer Trespassing (a third-degree felony) and were suspended/expelled from school. Whether or not the punishment fit the crime, i'm out of my jurisdiction to decide. After a flood of media came in questioning the school board, the charges were eventually dropped. To be honest, I think the school district should've been charged with Criminal Negligence if the students were charged...

Couple links about it
Local news article about Klutztown Computer Scandal
Slashdot | Felony Charges For H.S. Hacking
Slashdot | Klutztown Students get Felony Charges
Slashdot | Charges Against High School Hackers Dropped

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

In the end, you aren't really any worse off than any other team, but I understand that it sucks to have the technology right there in front of you, but not be able to use it. (As most other teams likely don't have school provided PC's) Like others have said, you really only need 1 PC to actually program. As long as you can use notepad on your school laptops, you can write the code there and then transfer it to an old pc that has mplab, c18, and ifiloader to actually program. You won't get the syntax highlighting that mplab provides, but you aren't missing much there.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Notice to all posters -
DO NOT recommend solutions that even come close to borderline illegal activities on this forum sight. (No debating what is and isn't illegal - it doesn't belong here on our websight)
Please provide ONLY appropriate responses and behaviors to all situations discussed here. There are many alternative solutions that do not include some of the things I have read in this thread!
As always, those that wish to offer positive suggestions are always welcome, those that choose the alternative - are not.

Mike Aubry
Team 47
Engineering Lead

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Dave and George, thank you very much for your comments.

Our school district has been set up the same way for the past two years as a district-wide punishment for a crime that was committed with one of the school computers. Though we do not have the privilege of laptop usage, we use the same "Novell Box" that nukem mentioned - limited programs and no Start menu.

We have obtained our own computers, via random donations of older machines from the School District and our own team members, that we use for programming. They are not connected to the district network and they are used exclusively for robotics (they are locked in a separate room during school hours).

When we need to perform operations that require extra access or usage of a Start menu, we are usually able to work out an agreement between either a teacher (since their accounts allow for normal desktop operation and a greater variety of program usage) or the school's technology resource guru (in the form of a separate computer usage agreement resulting in modified account settings for an account). If we cannot get approval either way, the operation is left out or performed on the students' own computers at home.

We do not want to take risks with our school district. Because we are present at the school so often after normal operation hours and on weekends, we are often blamed for mishaps and occurances that are beyond our own control (setting off alarms in other parts of the school, leaving classroom doors that are not a part of our workspace unlocked, etc). Obviously, all of these are security concerns and someone has to be blamed, though we usually take these accusations with a grain of salt - making sure to cross all of our own "t"s and dot all of our own "i"s whenever we are working.

It is the same with the computer system. The incident in a programming class at our school sparked an enormous, district-wide response involving suspensions and heavily increased computer restrictions. All I ask is that you think before you act. If Mr. Lavery wouldn't be proud of it, just don't do it at all.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

You should really talk to the IT people at your school. If they really won't change any of your settings, ask if you can borrow a loaner laptop with modified settings only for robotics. (If they have them).

My school has a laptop program that started back in the late 90's. It's a voluntary program (but like 90% of the school participates). Everyone has IBM thinkpads. In 10th grade, you can either buy one or make payments on it. Then when you graduate, it's yours to keep.
As for security, everyone is an administrator on their local accounts. I have a school account on the domain that I can log on to with my laptop, or any of the macs or pcs.
If your school has classroom PC's or labs, ask if you can get a robotics account for one of those. My team has our own login just for our robotics stuff.
As for punishment issues that have been brought up, my school is very strict like most are. Students get suspended for abusing the computers often. One student was even expelled last year.

Schools need to be strict. There's a lot of important information that travels across the network. If you have a computer that is connected to the network that may harm or compromise other machines, things could get bad. In my school, all of the security cameras are digital. Our fuel cell uses the network for monitoring information. Heck, even the locks for every door are controlled on the network. These things are vital to building operation; administrators don't want kids to even think about messing with them.
Many times we all get mad at our schools for being so strict, but they need to protect all of their students and staff.

Otherwise, it's great to have a laptop for robot programming. I've heard stories of my team's rookie years involving constant unplugging and moving a desktop computer around the lab. (Ouch) Talk to administrators and tech guys about getting an account on a local machine, or another machine just for programming.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

I will admit that some of my points were inappropriate. I apologize for the confusion over my post. I would have interpreted it the same way especially considering the hostile overtone it seems to present now that I read over it. I do not support violating school policies. I think that this miscommunication stemmed from the fact that i did not think my response through and assumed that Nukem's situation is that same as that of the programming class at our school. In the case of our programming class, we had many times requested that restrictions be removed and many times received empty promises that they would. The Novell and deepfreeze password aren’t well guarded secrets at my school. They are openly known by a number of students and non IT faculty (and the IT department knows this yet takes no actions to change them. We have warned them of the danger of this). This year we approached the school administration and asked them if it would be ok we made the changes ourselves since IT failed to take action. They agreed and granted us WRITTEN PERMISSION. The IT department in our county deos not have it’s act together and is often referred to as the Idiot Technology department.

Once I started rambling off about re-flashing the BIOS I was starting to go off into a hypothetical tangent. I once bought a laptop off eBay which the seller failed to communicate had a bios password. I removed it by re-flashing the bios with an EEPROM programmer. I assumed that the people of these forums would have enough sense not to take this suggestion too seriously.

As for my last suggestion of swapping out the hard drives with one of your own, I understand that this might be against the wishes of the IT department, but it is fairly benign. By doing so, you do not circumvent any security measures and do not alter the laptop in any was as long as you put the original hard rive back before you return the laptop. Also I do not see any harm in wiping the computer as long as you make an image of it before you do so and restore the image before you give the computer back. Again I feel such extreme measures should only be used as a last result.

I am sorry for the commotion I have caused

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

I'd like to get back to the other point of my comments (besides the moral/legal issues) that there are other options.

While pursuing different technical approaches, I would still get someone to talk to the administration and get parents involved. Just because you can solve it this year doesn't mean next year the problem will not be there again.

On the technical side, as many people have said, the programming software runs on older machines. And other then downloading the software initially, there isn't a necessatity for a network connection. Approach one of your sponsors and ask if they have an laptops or PCs they are getting rid of. Most major companies don't actually throw stuff out, it gets stored in a warehouse. It might be old but it will do the job.

And worst case scenario, you're in NJ w/ a large number of teams, someone with a laptop from another team can come over and help you load code. Paul Kloberg will see to that (and probably ask me since I'm mentioning it :> )

BTW, I appologize if some of my other comments came off harsh. I work in the defense industry where getting around security on a computer can sometimes be considered a federal issue. Remember though, even if it is legal, you might damage the team's reputation with the school because it looks bad/sneaky/etc and that isn't good for any team.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

I am astonished that you are defending this. Removing the software on the hard disk is circumventing the security. Removing the hard disk does alter the laptop. Taking apart a school-owned laptop can hardly be called benign.

You seem to be saying that breaking the rules is okay as long as you don't get caught. I urge you to abandon that idea immediately and start working on more constructive suggestions.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Wow, I was about ready to put on oven mitts to handle this thread! :rolleyes:


Now back to the original problem and a suggestion I haven't seen yet.

Has your team tried applying for any grants? We applied for a grant that allowed us to purchase not one but two brand new Compaq computers for team use only. This is an option that may work for you if you can't afford to purchase one outright and can't find anyone to donate or loan one to you. You will have to do some research to see what, if any, grants are available and the conditions to apply for them.

As Ken mentioned, Ebay is a good place also. I purchased a second laptop for myself that I basically carry around and use for robotics only. When needed I've loaned it out to the team. I paid $410 for it shipped to my door, a 650mhz Toshiba Satellite with 2000 Pro on it. It's more than enough for programming and Word, Excel and Powerpoint (we've done several presentations with it). Not something you would do gaming on but that was never the intent I had with it when I bought it anyhow.


Also just get the general word out that you're looking for a (working) laptop. You neven know, someone may be upgrading and trying to decide what to do with the old one. The holidays are coming up and I'm sure someone out there will be getting a new computer which is perfect timing for you since the "six weeks" follow the holiday season. If you're team holds 501(c)3 status then donations should be easier to come by, whether private individual or corporation.

I'm sure you'll find a solution. :)

Now excuse me, I have to put on the mitts and get the orange flavor Pillsbury rolls out of the oven. ;)

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

An interesting option not yet said by anyone is to ask the school/administration/IT department, for a completelystripped down laptop. By this I mean something without any internet connection, network connection but without the restrictive settings. This would allow the school to safegaurd themselves (it simply cannot access anything anywhere else, even if you do strange things with it). The downside to this is no internet, no network. But it's an interesting option.

Seth Lieblich

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

This is a social problem, not a technical one. Solving a social problem is always harder than finding a way to transmute the issue into the realm of the technical.

Were I you I would use Knoppix (if you run Gentoo already, this will be a breeze). You can boot into Knoppix, which is entirely self-contained and won't even access the taxpayer's harddrive. If you search these forums you'll quickly find resources for linux FRC programming tools... just make a custom knoppix distro with these tools!

This could actually be extremely useful now that I think about it! You don't need to install any software, your code files could be stored on a USB key. You can't mess really screw anything up if you don't mount any non-volatile drives...

Tech people are happy because you aren't touching their precious harddrive, you are happy because you don't have to putter about within their comfort zone.

To all of you who are pulling the righteous indignation bit, this issue is not as cut and dry morally as I take you to be making it out to be. After all, if the taxpayer is funding incompetant IT staff that compensate through the implemenation of draconian policies hampering the education of said taxpayer's children, there is a whole chain of wrongdoing before the level of the student. That said, two wrongs certainly don't make a right and the last thing you want to do is give them a legally valid reason to make an example of you (which altering their hardware would most certainly be).

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

I guess it's easy to say that the IT staff is "incompetent" and the policies are "draconian" when you're not the one who is responsible for keeping 100s or 1000s of laptops up and running with a whole bunch of students who think they know a thing or two trying to install their own software (or reformatting their hard drives, or running Linux because it's cool). You're not the one who gets the angry call from a parent when their son/daughter can't finish their homework on the school-supplied laptop because some friend installed some random junk software. You're not the one who gets in trouble with the administration or school board because all these kids who have laptops now installed IM and are goofing off in class, or cheating, or teasing other kids with it.

The attitude from several people in this thread about the school policies is really bothering me. People, it's precisely because of actions like the ones being suggested in this thread that the laptops are locked down so tight. I can just about guarantee you that the IT personnel didn't go through all the effort to lock down those machines just because they thought it would be fun to get you guys all upset about it. They do it because if they don't, someone comes along and does exactly what you're suggesting (such as reformatting the hard drive) and then go back and complain to IT that the computer is screwed up, and now the IT people have to spend their precious time fixing the mess.

Anyone who purposely and knowingly disobeys district policies for the use of a district resource (yeah, that's what it is, just because you take it home with you doesn't change that fact) deserves to spend a semester answering the phone at their local IT helpdesk. You'll find out very quickly why IT departments have no choice but to put policies in place that can help prevent users from doing something stupid to their computers.

If you want to run Linux or install your own software or boot from a USB key, save up your money and buy your own machine.

----

I meant to be done with this post already, but I'm adding one more thing: you better get used to these policies because you'll find similar ones when you go to college and when you graduate and get a job. Most companies do just about the same thing to their laptops and desktops as the schools do.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Tell it. Getting on the network here at the University of South Carolina at first is a true test of one's patience. (You have to download the University's antivirus software, keep your system patched, and Cisco CleanAccess, which makes sure the above conditions are met. Well, at least on Windows.)

And installing software on a University machine? Unless you're charged specifically with a task such as administering a web server or running a computer lab, forget it.

I've dealt with some doozies here at USC, but it mainly comes down to finding the right person to solve most problems. Believe it or not, working IT for a public institution and knowing what you're doing are not mutually exclusive. Once you find that person who can get the job done, keep their number filed somewhere. Being able to cut past the phone tree to someone who knows your situation tends to do wonders for any issues you may experience.

Or start passing the hat around. You can get a fully-functioning PC for around $250 from Wal-Mart (without a monitor, but we're geeks--surely someone has an old monitor in the garage).

But please, don't attempt to subvert the rules. It almost invariably becomes more trouble than it's worth.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

I don't follow this line of reasoning at all. If I'm understanding the situation correctly, the school district is giving each student a computer for use during the school year. This student, and only this student, will be using it that year. As long as I'm only modifying the laptop assigned to me, who am I potentially harming other than myself? At the end of each year all the laptops should be re-imaged anyway, and then the next student has a clean slate... what is the issue here?

This is a red herring. We're not talking about altering any machine other than the one assigned to robotics student in question.

How do you tease someone with a laptop?! I'm not sure what exactly is being described here, but it sounds as though these are actions that negatively impact the education of other students. This is not what is being described by any of the above posters. Any harm that could come out of the above actions would be self-inflicted.

See, now that is a legitimate concern. It should, for all "official" purposes, be against the rules to do something like this. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, but rather that you shouldn't bother tech support when you get yourself in trouble. If you never come in contact with tech support, everyone is happy.

It's hard because you are trying to protect people from themselves, a policy which I have yet to hear a successful implentation of. See "The War on Drugs"

While all of the above goes for installing linux on the HDD, I am still not advocating that. I'm advocating the entirely different practice of booting a CD and storing files on a USB key. This lives the computer totally immune from technical fowl up. There is simply no technical reason this should be of concern.

A computer is a tool like any other, why should it be treated differently? If I'm using this tool in such a way as to further the state's goal of educating me, and I'm not interfering with anybody else's ability to do the same, aren't I right in line with he intent of the elected officals who appropriated funds to my school district?

I've interned at a fairly large (300+ employee) aeronautics engineering firm. I arrived the first day expecting to spend a lot of time explaining to tech support why I would need various tools to do my project (writing UAV groundstation software, which required a lot of unusual software configurations for testing). I was pleasently suprised to find that IT simply managed the network and left engineers (and lowly interns) to do what they needed, helping when help was requested. I'd imagine most companies that value employee sanity would do the same. As long as I was doing my work (reaching deadlines) and not inhibiting fellow employees from doing the same (say, by playing Half Life 2 on my break and doing the Zombie Frag dance every five minutes) everything was copacetic.

I've also done tech support for a very small company (my father's), and conditions were similar. To some extent, I think we'll see a decreasing need for traditional IT departments as computer familiarity becomes nearly universal, which will happen in about 20 years.

Academia is a lost cause. ;)

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

As I said, you are harming the IT department (not you as in you specifically, but you as in any student who changes their laptop). The IT department's job is to see that each student has a working laptop. If you break it, then they have to fix it to maintain their goal.
Yes we are, because if they let you change your laptop then they need to let everyone change their laptop. The IT department does not have any real way of knowing if you are competent enough to modify things without dorking something up.
I was describing a potential consequence of letting the kids install software, and in this case IM software. This is not a hypothetical - I've seen a situation like this.
That would be fine if you weren't required to do anything with the computer. If you screwed it up and no one found out then I suppose it would be less of a concern. However, I assume these computers are distributed with the intent of them being used in class and for homework. If your teacher tells you to pull out your laptop and start up Excel or something and you can't because you installed Linux, then you have a problem. And when you tell your teacher you can't start Excel there's a good chance he/she will send you to IT to get your laptop fixed.
Once again, you are not trying to protect the students from themselves, you are trying to protect the IT department from having to deal with the consequences of students mucking with things that they shouldn't be.
First of all, it was already mentioned that the BIOS was locked and the laptops wouldn't boot from other media. Even if it weren't, there's probably a policy against it. And, booting from CD/USB does not leave the computer "totally immune from technical fowl up". I can boot from a Knoppix CD and mount the local hard drive (or run dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda) and still screw things up. By booting from another medium you're circumventing security measures put in place by IT (that's how they'll view it).
Exactly my point! Does your school let you make your own blade for a table saw and use that? Do they let you write in their textbooks? Do they let you take apart the school VCRs and rewire them? I doubt it.
Employers will expect you to have more responsibility for yourself, yes. You still will probably not have free reign however. Maybe you did at that place, but you won't everywhere. I can do pretty much what I want with my work laptop, but I'm still not allowed to do certain things, such as installing Ethereal, or formatting it and putting Linux on it. If we need that for our job then our department will buy a "lab" laptop which is totally unsupported by IT (and it's still scanned by IT for vulnerabilities which we have to patch, etc).

You need to look at this from the IT perspective of supporting 1000s of machines, not from your own perspective where you're convinced you won't screw it up. I'm sure you can imagine someone else who you go to school with who you think could do some damage with the admin password. Well, for better or worse that's probably how the IT staff views you and all of your classmates (probably through years of experience).

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Then you're apparently either ignoring or dismissing one of the premises. The reasoning is quite clear to me.
Okay, that's enough. Stop it with the "break the rules, just don't let anyone know" already!
It shouldn't be treated differently from any other valuable tool owned by the school. Among other things, that means it should not be modified in violation of the school's rules.

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

I mentioned in a previous post not to mount drives. If no drives are mounted, which is Knoppix's default state, no damage can be done.

Other than that, Mr.Flowerday's comments compute. I recind any previous contradictory post.

Really, the way out of this situation is to use someone's private machine. Surely any group of nerds has at least one or two boxes lying around...

I still think the customised FRC Knoppix could be immensely useful though...

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

This is getting tiresome. Please stop trying to rationalize breaking into a school-owned computer in order to use non-authorized software. You have already done damage simply by promoting the subversion of the BIOS password and booting "around" the laptop's security.

(Even if you think it's a stupid rule, it's still a rule. Stupid rules are not meant to be broken; they're meant to be changed. Unless and until they are changed, breaking them is wrong.)

Re: Restrictive Environment From School
 

Perhaps school districts should stop indiscriminately handing out freebie laptops to everyone and instead use their obviously plentiful $$$ to hire more and/or better teachers and expand the selection of *live* instruction the kids have to choose from?

I'd like to see any kid try to erase a teacher's "operating system". I think the resultant swift kick in the pants would do him/her some good. Oh wait, that kind of real discipline isn't permitted any more.

Sitting still and listening to your teachers seemed to work fine in the good ole' days (1995). You could not ever convince me that the majority of those laptops are being used for educational purposes the bulk of the time. I would hope each student in possession of a laptop were required to somehow *prove* that they were putting this item to good use to retain the right to use it.

So what to do with all those confiscated laptops? How about distributing them to local libraries, community centers, and colleges, where only those who possess a genuine desire to use the technology for practical and educational purposes will ever use them? Those who want to chat on AIM all day can wait until they get home. Poor widdle babies.

Pardon my aggressive and quite possibly off topic post, but this bugs me greatly. It's bad enough such educational and economic disparity exists in this country to the point where some schools have a laptop for every kid while others have one computer for every building (if they're lucky); but to hear of a few truly fortunate students either abusing or suggesting the abuse of this extreme privilege on top of it all.........GAH!!

Please respect those who have put so much faith in you all to use and take care of such expensive pieces of equipment. If you have a desire to install hardware/software for FIRST or other programs, then please don't circumvent the system. You may find your school's IT staff will kindly accomodate you. If they decline, accept it and pursue an alternate solution to your problem through other positive, respectful means.

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Well my team and I have been discussing this a lot. And we have taken in all of your considerations. Right now I am using my own IBM Thinkpad T40 running Gentoo Linux but as it is the school dosnt really like that being in the building, im not allowed to connect to the internet or even have the wireless on(and yes it does come on when I boot it up). Its pretty hard doing this since we have at least two new programmers I need to train and one laptop. I read in one of the post someone said "as long as you have notepad" well I looked and its blocked! I also recently heard a story from a student on student console who asked the tech department to install a copy of some software that the student console was going to buy. They refused because "the school needs a school license" when he asked about an open source solution they said "all open source software have security volubilities and we would still need a site license"(I find this ironic because the latest versions of Novell which they are running use SUSE Linux) Obviously these people dont have a clue. Our last shot is that the school may have some old dells and we are requesting them but if we cannt get those im not sure how strong our programming is going to be this year. No one else has a laptop and the team wants the money for parts, food, travel, not really for programming.

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If their network were actually secure, it wouldn't matter how many T40s tried to connect to the internet. If the ad hoc networking settings on the school's computers were set correctly, it wouldn't matter how many T40s tried to establish local wireless connections. These sorts of security measures are basic IT responsibilities. Do they have a good reason why they allow anyone with a wireless card to connect to their network, and yet try to keep other wireless-capable computers out of the building? It's just more farcical, because these are wireless networks—they're broadcasting out into the street, in all likelihood.

Or maybe I'm missing the point. They don't want the T40 in the building, because they're jealous of it. :rolleyes:
Clearly not.

You might try to write an essay, listing fallacies, vulnerabilities and appropriate resolutions, and present it to the Principal or Vice-Principal who oversees IT resources. That way, you can reasonably say that you're taking steps to improve the system; it makes it that much harder for them to accuse you of trying to violate it. And at least they won't be able to claim ignorance, when something goes really wrong.

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Sorry, but I'm going to have to side with your IT department on this one. Put yourself in their shoes. As long as all the computers are identical and are heavily restricted, it makes their job easy. Are the laptops working out for the average student? I'm sure it has word processing and internet. With the exception of a few engineering programs, that's all I use for school. Unless you have some computer classes (programming and the such), you probably don't need anything other than word processing and internet.

As for their distain of open source software, I could see that response in two situations. First off, they might see you as lowly students and don't want to sit you down to debate their reasons for refusing to install software other than what's on there now. Second, it depends on the program. There are some open source programs that would require you to have a site license or even pay for it. As for these "vulerabilities", they could mean "holes that students could take advantage of to circumvent the security measures that are in place". I'm going to say that I don't disagree with that.

But why do they want such heavy restrictions on your computers? It could be all sorts of things. There is one that comes to mind right away though. Think of this headline: Pentagon hacked using school district laptop.

Personally, I think the best thing to do in your situation is to find a way for your team to get your own computers. There's got to be some company in your area that's getting ready to throw some away. That's how we got ours.

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I think that's what he meant by his own Thinkpad. Tristan's right, there's something wierd about IT's confidence in thier own security.

If you have your own laptop then that's all you'll need for programming. The internet access is something that schools generally don't take lightly whether thier computers or your own. In general, I don't think schools would even allow "outside" computers internet access or have a network account. I can't hook the Toshiba I carry with me (I own it) to my schools network although I am allowed to bring it into the building and use it same as other members of my team with personal laptops.

I just don't understand why they're getting so worried with your own computers unless they had a problem(s) in the past.

If you need another computer besides the laptop, a desktop may work if you can find a cart to set it up on. Then you can just wheel it around when needed.

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Oh oh oh ___Legal Idea:

My school was selling a few weeks ago oldish pentium II desktop machines from compaq for 5 dollars each, the drawback? no OS and no monitor or keyboard, each cost 5 dollars extra and they had no mice to sell.

If you are still looking for a computer and dont mind a desktop instead of a laptop i will willingly sell your team one of these desktops for 5 dollars plus the price of shipping it to you.

Of course i will have to see if there are any more left.

Just reply by PM or Email if this works for you, and I'll try my best to help you.

On behalf of the Maggie Walker MechTechs,
Cuog

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So, you mean there are no applications on the laptop? By "not allowed to do anything with them" do you really mean "not allowed to do whatever I want with them (and I should be able to because I know lots more about this stuff than they do)"? Hmmm.

Nuke, you need to re-examine your basic premise. Those laptops do everything 98% of the students need them to do, and they do it just fine. The other 2% may indeed know more than the IT staff, but that's no excuse. These are not game machines, they are tools like your math textbook, and we don't want anyone messing with them. (I paid for that machine!).

If you really find it so awful, feel free to give the laptop back and do without. Meanwhile, for everything else, find another option. Don't want to be too harsh, but it almost sounds like you are whining. Stop.

(By the way: If you need leverage with the school, let me know. Between your advisers and others, we can get whatever you need for you.)

Don

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Call me simplistic but if I were the school district I would the most logical approach to the situation would be to charge a fee to "reset" a laptop. You arent furthering anyones education (face it, you can learn all the similes you want in english, but advanced simile identification is worthless compared to technical skills) by not allowing them to mess around on the computer. If they are gonna blow the cash on a laptop for each student they might as well let the students get as much benefit as possible from them.

Now sitting here several thousand miles away (it might be different if it were actually happening to me) I would like to say that if the IT people wont do it for me, il dang well do it myself. The school district didnt spend the taxpayers money on a computer so that they could spend more of the money to pay somebody to prevent me from gaining the maximum benifit from the laptop. On the other hand dont mess up whats on there already. Dont format the hard drive, either swap it out with one of your own, or find a way to use an external drive of some sort. If I asked a lawyer they might tell me that it "is inpermissible" or some nonsense, but this isnt about what lawyers think its about the simple fact that you are going to give back a computer just as functional as the one they gave to you. If you screw it up youd better take responsibility though (as in you personally, not the club/team/etc).

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If you feel that you must run Linux on the school laptops then get a small external HD they are anywhere from 50-100 dollars and install a live boot linux or D@mn small linux so that it runs inside the windows console, adding anything to a school HD is just DUMB if they begin to suspect you which is likely when they notice that you are programming with it and they dont want you to then they will be pissed,

while i agree that what they are doing with all the limitations is unfair and stupid the only thing that would be worse of an idea is going against them by finding hacks around the system

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I find it silly how you are all jabbering about the subject bypassing the obvious. What is the schools policy on the laptops. For all we know it could say "Students are allowed to use any remote Live-Cds aslong as school's operating system remains intact at the time of return" That renders most if not all statements made here irrelevant and absurd.

I agree sure most IT departments are full of incompetent people. (mine were nice enough to let me use the internet) Nevertheless, I'm sure now with your personal laptop for the team you can use removable media to transfer text files. (You can do plain text files in word too you know) I hightly doubt school would go as far as not allowing remote media to copy text files.

My recommednation. Now that you have that laptop have your team install the software on their computer, put the code they make in removable media and display it on the laptop and analyze it together an compile it all that other junk.

I was the only person with a laptop in school last year and this is what we did. Sure its a hassle but beats not doing it at all. :D

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Don't do something stupid - like removing the HDD, or booting from a livecd. I don't know if you heard about it, but someone was arrested for "hacking"... he connected to an OPEN wireless access point.

My point is, your school isn't going to view this the same way you are. And when your IT department says you were hacking the laptop, it's not going to be fun for you.

You have already said you have your own laptop, whats wrong with using that? I don't see any way you can get in trouble for using your laptop on school grounds.

My only other suggestion, and I don't know if its possible at your school, would be an independent study in C/C++ programming. Assuming you can do this, I think the IT department would be more willing to install a few compilers for you :)

If you do have to go talk to them about it - go prepared. Bring the software with you, on a CD, along with the latest patches. Bring a copy of the EULA or wherever it says you can use it for educational use only. It might not hurt to tell them that it can only compile code for the robot - there's no danger of you compiling viruses or exploits on the machine.

As a last resort, try getting your parents to call the school, and ask why they won't allow educational software to be installed on the machines. I've found that schools are more receptive to parents rather then students.