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Issues 17-11-2005 11:43

tachometer mystery?
 
So I was driving to school one day, and was sitting at a red light when I thought to myself, what would happen to my RPM's if I turned my air conditioner on while I'm just sitting here. I hypothesized that they would go up because i figured the air conditioner would provide a greater load on the engine so it would need to spin faster to keep up. An amazing thing (to me) happened, they went down. I tested it out a few times, and sure enough if I turned the air conditioning on all the way the needle would pop down and if i turned it it off, it would pop back up. Why is it like this?

sanddrag 17-11-2005 12:04

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
What kind of car? I never really notice a difference with mine. Anyhow, an AC compressor places load on the engine, causing it to slow down. Just the same as if you there was friction in the drivetrain of your robot. It is a load, and would cause it to slow down. I am surprised you notice a difference though because for a big engine (like a car engine) and AC compressor shouldn't be too much of a load.

Greg McCoy 17-11-2005 12:12

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Your ECM/PCM will probably open the throttle a little to compensate for the load if the RPM drops past a certain point, but if it's within the idle speed limits it will probably just rev a little lower.

In some smaller cars with 4-cylinders and low horsepower, you can notice the difference in acceleration when the A/C is on or off :cool:

Wetzel 17-11-2005 12:22

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg McCoy
In some smaller older cars with 4-cylinders and low horsepower, you can notice the difference in acceleration when the A/C is on or off :cool:

It doesn't matter the age of the car or the size of the engine, the AC will slow your acceleration. Some cars just have enough excess power that it isn't very noticeable. (The AC load robs the car of a smaller percentage of power to the wheels)



Wetzel

greencactus3 17-11-2005 15:38

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
if you have an automatic, you can even see it drop more when you have the brakes on with the tranny in drive rather than neutral,

Issues 17-11-2005 16:15

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
that was my case, I have a 99 dodge intrepid (automatic) and I was sitting still w/ brakes on and in drive.

Cuog 17-11-2005 17:38

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Now what causes this:

On a car(gasoline engine anyway, i dont know much about deisels) the RPMs are adjusted by two different means depending upon whether u have Fuel Injection or Carbeuration:

FI- You adjust via the Go pedal how much air is allowed into the engine through a butterfly valve, the computer then determines how much fuel needs to be injected into the cylinders based on the pressure and amount of O2 in the air.

Carb- You adjust it via the go pedal but this time the butterfly valve and air are used to create a ventury(i think that is spelled right and this method is at least for all aoutomobile carbs that i have seen) which sucks the gasoline allong with the air into the cylinders.

When you add load to the engine it does not say to anything(at least not in most cars some fancy ones do this)"hey im underload gimme more powa'!!" instead the explosion in the chanber does not have enough force to continue at the same speed and the RPMs drop. More gas and Air = more Force explosion = faster RPMs.

Car Man :cool: ,
Cuog

KenWittlief 17-11-2005 19:09

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
I dont agree entirely

I think every car on the US market has been fuel injected for some time now. The engine controller (computer) holds the engine at the idle RPM when you have your foot off the gas. It compensates for air temp, engine temp, air pressure, the load on the alternator, and keeps the engine at its proper idle speed.

the on/off button on the air conditioner is just another input to the engine controller.

also, on most cars, when you accelerate with the pedal all the way to the floor, the engine controller turns the A/C off, because you obviously want full power to the drive train (or you wouldnt be mashing the gas pedal).

My Saturn Vue has a electic gas pedal. There is no cable to the intake butterfly, its controlled by the engine computer. (and my Vue is by no means an expensive vehicle: $14,500 new).

lukevanoort 17-11-2005 19:28

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Also, since I'm assuming the wheather was warm, your power production is probably down anyway, due to knock thresholds and density.

gburlison 17-11-2005 21:29

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
The air conditioner provides an additional load which slows down the engine. Many engines have an idle solenoid that will engage when the A/C is on. This solenoid will attempt increase the speed of the engine. Depending on how it is adjusted, it may or may not cause the engine to speed up.

Al Skierkiewicz 17-11-2005 22:08

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Ken's explanation is correct. Both the Honda's and the Dodge van I own have throttle positioners that are controlled by the computer. All of the various sensors on the engine are looking at idle speed, all of the environmentals (i.e. outside temp, engine temp, etc.) transmission selector, etc. When at idle, in gear or out of gear, lean or rich, cold or hot, the computer adjusts the idle setting based on the RPM sensor and whatever the software guys programmed in. The service manuals for the above cars specify that engine RPM when warm should not change more that 50 RPM as the lights are turned on, the A/C cycles, the brakes are applied (brake lights on) or the fan is set to high. There is some delay from one manufacturer to the next but they should all recover within a few seconds. If not, there is a good chance that the throttle positioner is loose or worn, the throttle plate is dirty, the mass air sensor is dirty or not up to temp, the injectors are dirty, the fuel pressure is not within spec, or you have a manifold leak. (Assuming you have kept to the maintenance schedule and have good plugs and clean filters) Most of these problems are minor and they result in a small loss in economy. There are a number of shops that are able to clean intake parts and I know of one shop that has equipment for cleaning the intake, injectors and fuel rail for a very reasonable price.If your RPM drops 200 or more (quite common with post '96 Dodge big V6 engines with dirty throttle parts) you might have a problem with engine stall in the future.

sciguy125 18-11-2005 02:20

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
I noticed that mine likes to bounce. When there is a load, the tach drops. When the control system tries to recover, it overshoots. Then it realizes it went too high and comes back down. The A/C does this when it turns on. If I turn the bass on the radio up, it'll follow the music.

On a side note, I did notice that there's a certain temperature that my engine doesn't like. The problem is that it's a little above ambient for this time of year. When the engine's at this temperature (at start up), it revs really low. Every so often, it's so low that it feels like it's getting ready to stall. It's fine when I give it some gas, but it doesn't like to idle properly. Once the engine warms up, it's fine though.

Al Skierkiewicz 18-11-2005 07:32

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sciguy125
If I turn the bass on the radio up, it'll follow the music.

On a side note, I did notice that there's a certain temperature that my engine doesn't like. The problem is that it's a little above ambient for this time of year. When the engine's at this temperature (at start up), it revs really low. Every so often, it's so low that it feels like it's getting ready to stall. It's fine when I give it some gas, but it doesn't like to idle properly. Once the engine warms up, it's fine though.

Phil,
The first one is easy, the music is too loud. It might be an engine response or it might just be accoustic coupling.
The second one is a prime suspect for a temp sensor gone bad. It probably works above a certain temp and is way off below that temp.

sciguy125 18-11-2005 10:44

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz
The first one is easy, the music is too loud. It might be an engine response or it might just be accoustic coupling.
The second one is a prime suspect for a temp sensor gone bad. It probably works above a certain temp and is way off below that temp.

I was thinking that the music thing might be from extra power consumption. The electrical system is connected to the alternator which is connected to the engine.

As for the temp sensor, it just doesn't work at that temperature. When the engine is really cold or already warm, it's fine.

Al Skierkiewicz 18-11-2005 12:54

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sciguy125
I was thinking that the music thing might be from extra power consumption. The electrical system is connected to the alternator which is connected to the engine.

As for the temp sensor, it just doesn't work at that temperature. When the engine is really cold or already warm, it's fine.

It's possible that you are drawing too much current through the dash power wiring. As the current goes up the voltage drop on the wire goes up. (just like the wiring to speed controllers and motors.)

I had the same problem with a normally aspirated engine years ago. The carb just didn't like wet weather between 32 and 45 when it was cold. Seemed that ice would form across the venturis as the air was accelerated.

Cuog 18-11-2005 14:03

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

I dont agree entirely

I think every car on the US market has been fuel injected for some time now. The engine controller (computer) holds the engine at the idle RPM when you have your foot off the gas. It compensates for air temp, engine temp, air pressure, the load on the alternator, and keeps the engine at its proper idle speed.

the on/off button on the air conditioner is just another input to the engine controller.

also, on most cars, when you accelerate with the pedal all the way to the floor, the engine controller turns the A/C off, because you obviously want full power to the drive train (or you wouldnt be mashing the gas pedal).

My Saturn Vue has a electic gas pedal. There is no cable to the intake butterfly, its controlled by the engine computer. (and my Vue is by no means an expensive vehicle: $14,500 new).

I adressed that in the fancier post that i originally posted but i had accidentally closed the browser and didnt feel like typing it again. Yes some newer cars infact the number is increasing do more "thinking" for throttle input but many cars(my experience with new cars runs till 2000 on Jeeps so try not to hold that against me) but what i posted earlier is mainly exident in less advanced fuel injection and carbueration not so much on todays more electronically controlled machines

greencactus3 18-11-2005 15:58

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
slightly off topic but kinda on. my truck when i rev it in neutral and then as i let go of the throttle, the speedometer whips up about 5mph and then settles down again. this is when i have my foot on the brakes and the truck hasnt moved a cm. how can it? the transmission is not in gear... why is this?

KenWittlief 18-11-2005 16:00

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
instrumentation error

or

your engine is warping the time/space continuum!

greencactus3 18-11-2005 19:33

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KenWittlief
your engine is warping the time/space continuum!

yea. figured as much.

Andrew Blair 18-11-2005 20:42

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Flux capacitor is obviously uncalibrated....

DonRotolo 20-11-2005 19:26

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sciguy125
I noticed that mine likes to bounce. When there is a load, the tach drops. When the control system tries to recover, it overshoots. Then it realizes it went too high and comes back down. The A/C does this when it turns on. If I turn the bass on the radio up, it'll follow the music.

On a side note, I did notice that there's a certain temperature that my engine doesn't like. The problem is that it's a little above ambient for this time of year. When the engine's at this temperature (at start up), it revs really low. Every so often, it's so low that it feels like it's getting ready to stall. It's fine when I give it some gas, but it doesn't like to idle properly. Once the engine warms up, it's fine though.

The reason it follows the music is because those bass notes draw a lot of current, causing the alternator to draw more power from the engine. If you can see an effect from 63 watts of brake lights, 500 watts of bass will do it, too. Note that many A/C compressors draw up to 5 HP off the engine. Modern electronic engine controls should compensate for the load, but not all cars are the same. As for the bounce, what you are seeing is the control system feedback loop frequency response, which is either in need of repair (see below) or wasn't designed right in the first place (which I highly doubt).

For the poor idle regulation at a certain temperature, there is obviously something wrong with the warm-up system. Given enough money, the car will run fine at any temperature, but now it becomes a question of how much you want to spend to make it right. A decent mechanic can tell you which part needs replacement, but I would hazard a guess it is the mass air flow sensor that is fouled a little.

Don

billbo911 24-11-2005 12:23

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greencactus3
slightly off topic but kinda on. my truck when i rev it in neutral and then as i let go... why is this?

This is more along the line of your question and not so much along the original thread, but I think it fits in here.

Talk about odd behavior! When I have my truck in neutral and rev the engine to about 3500-4000 RPM, if I then slide the transmission into gear, the tires let out an awful howling sound and sometimes smoke! The part I really can't explain is that almost every time, my head bounces off the head rest. It's all very curious!

KenWittlief 24-11-2005 12:57

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by billbo911
This is more along the line of your question and not so much along the original thread, but I think it fits in here.

Talk about odd behavior! When I have my truck in neutral and rev the engine to about 3500-4000 RPM, if I then slide the transmission into gear, the tires let out an awful howling sound and sometimes smoke! The part I really can't explain is that almost every time, my head bounces off the head rest. It's all very curious!

Ive seen this before. There is a nut with a screw loose behind the steering wheel! :^)

billbo911 24-11-2005 14:05

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KenWittlief
Ive seen this before. There is a nut with a screw loose behind the steering wheel! :^)

OK, I got it. That explains the rattling sound I hear right after my head bounces off the head rest. :D

greencactus3 24-11-2005 14:17

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by billbo911
This is more along the line of your question and not so much along the original thread, but I think it fits in here.

Talk about odd behavior! When I have my truck in neutral and rev the engine to about 3500-4000 RPM, if I then slide the transmission into gear, the tires let out an awful howling sound and sometimes smoke! The part I really can't explain is that almost every time, my head bounces off the head rest. It's all very curious!

lol for those of you who have never heard a transmission ripping apart and a rear end cracking, try this, its the kind of sound that is about equal to the smell of a burnt victor right by your nose. the things you see and hear in a highschool parking lot.. *shudders*

KenWittlief 24-11-2005 14:44

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by billbo911
... in neutral and rev the engine to about 3500-4000 RPM, if I then slide the transmission into gear, the tires let out an awful howling sound and sometimes smoke!

My best friend did this with his moms Gremlin in '77. It was a 6 cylinder auto, way underpowered, but he was determined to spin the tires.

They chirped for a second, then the engine broke free from all its mounts, and the fan went through the radiator.

He had some 'splaining' to do when he got home!

Knowing all the things me and my friends did when we were young, Im now thankfull everytime I see my son pull his car in the driveway in one piece.

[ Happy Thanksgiving everyone! ]

greencactus3 24-11-2005 15:11

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KenWittlief
Knowing all the things me and my friends did when we were young, Im now thankfull everytime I see my son pull his car in the driveway in one piece.

.....or so you think..... :rolleyes:
Quote:

Originally Posted by KenWittlief
My best friend did this with his moms Gremlin in '77. It was a 6 cylinder auto, way underpowered, but he was determined to spin the tires.

They chirped for a second, then the engine broke free from all its mounts, and the fan went through the radiator.

He had some 'splaining' to do when he got home!

lol yup. friend's 02 4.3 zr2. never a good idea

Cuog 25-11-2005 18:47

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Yeah my trans am not even running to well at the moment(way too rich) can spin tires in reverse without me trying hard(granted thats on gravely dirtlike stuff) Also if you do as above and you get lucky you will only explode U-Joints or a driveshaft(on rear wheel drive vehicals only unless your really trying)

KenWittlief 25-11-2005 20:19

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
funny, its all a matter of perspective

if you have a car that will spin its wheels from the power of the engine alone, everyone thinks "WOW what a powerfull car you have"

unless its winter up here in the great white north, then everyone spins their wheels all the time, and the only thought that comes to mind is "WOW these tires are terrible! I gotta get me some studded snow tires!"

greencactus3 25-11-2005 20:44

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KenWittlief
funny, its all a matter of perspective

if you have a car that will spin its wheels from the power of the engine alone, everyone thinks "WOW what a powerfull car you have"

unless its winter up here in the great white north, then everyone spins their wheels all the time, and the only thought that comes to mind is "WOW these tires are terrible! I gotta get me some studded snow tires!"

or....
"he needs more weight in tha back.."
which is what im having trouble with right now....
im driving a 2wd pickup and stuck 250lbs of sand right over the rear axle.. mostly on the passenger side since i have an open diff. oh what i would give for a quick swap to a lsd... and a/t tires. not good. should i get more weight in the back over the axle or should i move the bags farther back... to like the tailgate? its a longbed so i can get a lot of leverage with that. :D BUT. thatll mean ill be taking some weight off the front tires. do i really wanna do that? i have a big v6 in there so itll be more than what i had over my front axle in my neon.... i think? or do driveshafts and such weigh a lot? well anywho. my question is should i get more weight or slide the 250 lbs i have farther back to get more leverage for the weight and say i still have enough weight in the fromt to not worry about the seesaw affect

KenWittlief 25-11-2005 21:13

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
personally I would not put anything in the bed back there for weight unless you can bolt it down somehow

God forbid you have an accident someday and have 250 lbs of sandbags, or whatever ballast you chose... coming through your rear window at 60mph!

greencactus3 27-11-2005 20:44

Re: tachometer mystery?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KenWittlief
personally I would not put anything in the bed back there for weight unless you can bolt it down somehow

God forbid you have an accident someday and have 250 lbs of sandbags, or whatever ballast you chose... coming through your rear window at 60mph!

hm... what do you suggest i do then? i can ducttape them together and tie them down but bolting down sand is a bit harder to do... or are there better weights than sand?(cheap)


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