Design Challenge: Baton
 

Someone posted a challenge to pick up a hula-hoop before, this is kinda like that. With all the talk of what the 2006 game is going to consist of, many people think that we will have to manipulate a baton-esque object.

So, how would you manipulate a baton?

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Well, it'd be tricky.

I suppose the best bet is to get some of the ribbed conveyor belting from McMaster-Carr (the stuff right below wedgetop in the catalog), then space a break every few inches for the nubs on the end. Put a ramp underneath, and drive that belt from the top. It should work...at least in my head.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Like I'm going to tell you all...:p. I would use double set of manipulators that would resemble tweezers, and space them out so they grip a baton easily and do not have to be lined up just right, or I could use a conveyor belt with little C shapes on it to make like a belt flipping batons behind it into goals or whatever they are scored in. Going by history though, I would look for balls not batons...but then again, it is FIRST so it can be unpredictable.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

My dad has always thought it would be cool to have a relay race FRC game.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

The best solution for handling and manipulation would probably be a log truck end effector. To see a guy with like three levers twirl around a massive tree and gently set it into a small spot on a truck, thats amazing! If the baton are relatively large. If they're small, who knows?

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

If you have to place the baton with any accuracy, I'm thinking we might want to look closely at automatic screw feeders / sorters.

Anyway, to pick it up...
- Something that doesn't need to be placed accurately or lined up to the baton
- Something that doesn't need to be controlled by a human well, or at all
- Something that won't jam if they go in wrong
- Something that won't change shape/grip/size as time marches on

Can anyone else come up with some other performance characteristics? I KNOW there are more.

I know... I didn't answer the question. But that's OK. I'm just trying to think about the problem right now... (I wouldn't come up with a method for my own team either.)

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

1. Doesn't break! If you're going to have a fancy, manipulative end effector that's going to be in rough competition, it's got to be sturdy.
2. Small. For this reason:if you need to manuever a long object into a small spot (just speculation), it should be as unbulky as possible. No need to complicate the problem.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Actually you've made the best start. Figure out what characteristics you want the machine to have first, then think about what it looks like or how it accomplishes the task. Because when you start comparing your concept list to the requirements list, a lot of concepts will drop out. They won't meet the requirement for one reason or another. Other concepts you might have to test first to figure out whether or not they will work

This is a hard discipline to learn, particularly for us creative types. We want to go out and build something right away. But it is better to think a little bit first.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

No kidding. Getting the students to do this is, I think, one of the hardest things to mentor them on. It's takes some time to realize that your first idea is not always the best, and there ARE good, disiplined ways to select designs. Last year we had to withhold all materials and machine keys from the students until they completed a Pew Analysis of the game and possible robots... But I think they realized it was worth it....

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

I would have to side with the what ifs category on this one...

It is my strong opinion that the hardest part of a relay type challenge with a batton would be the transfer

Getting one robot to do what you want it to do is possible...but hard all the same

If you had to somehow transfer a small object between robots there would be immense room for error

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

The orientation of the baton will likely be random, so it needs to be able to handle that when picking it up.

I would imagine that the game might require some positive placement, rather than being able to just drop it, so manipulation might be important.

Robust, insensitive (especially to impacts) and not overly complex.

I like the idea of little to no operator skill required, the skill requirement is one thing that killed us last year, since we had nearly zero practice time before the regional.

The hint I saw mentioned something about 'things around the office' being an inspiration for the game - I see a wastebasket, or perhaps a pencil holder (e.g. a coffee can), so it may be necessary to pick up a baton in one orientation (horizontal) and dispose of it in another orientation (vertical).

My few cents' worth.

Don

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Something with a "knobbler" on the front. The "knobbler "would sweep in batons. It would use either a shaft or conveyor belting with long springy metal bristles on it. The bristles would rotate and rake things into a bin. The entire mechanism could pivot up above the robot to dump the bin into wherever the batons need to be placed. Picture a dump truck lifting a dumpster overhead.

I could also imagine a mechanism in which the robot has a hollow space underneath. You drive over a baton and a wiper mechanism sweeps the baton into a tray. A line of really stiff bristles could be used instead.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Yes, and then it is funneled into a V shaped thing so then it is lined up straight and a conveyor sort of system will carry it to the "hand" which places it whereever it needs to go.

I know my description is kind of vague but I think the "funnel" part is important, to ensure that is lines up straight.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

For things on the ground, this is definentely one of the best ways. it lines 'em up straight, and all you do is drive into the baton. Like was said, just the v with parrallel conveyers.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

I would put the attachment on the end of an arm that can easily run on the floor so that i could just drive into the baton, there would be a plow type thing on the front of the robot so i would just hvae the arm line up correctly with this and one the baton is in it the opperator presses a button and the calw colses around the baton, the arm then can lift and manipulate it however is needed.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Just made this in Rhino 3d(my program of choice)



simple, effective.

The wheel on the back is so it can basicly drag on the ground when waiting to grab a baton. grippy materials would be added to the claws to fit the batons. Probably would have lightening holes in the main plow. It may be possible to grab more than one baton at a time, if you line them up right.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

I think that one of the most important things is that however it works, orientation doesn't matter. It needs to be something where you can just drive over and schnarf up a baton.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

The "schnarf"-age factor is key, as rickterson mentioned above.

I very much like the idea of being able to drive over a baton and get it into a hopper. The question then is, how do you get a baton into the end-effector mechanism that does all the fancy positioning? I'm thinking along the lines of a toothpick dispenser.



In case you have never actually looked closely at one of these, they consist of a big bin of toothpicks and a drum with a toothpick shaped indentation in it. When the drum rotates, a single tootpick ends up in the indentation and is deposited in the little tray.

So the robot I'm thinking of breaks down something like this:

1. A mechanism like those described above "sweeps" batons into a hopper
2. The armateur that is to place the baton would be able to move to the "tray" position at the press of a button. A sensor (banner? a simple button?) would determine whether a baton is currently in the tray, and if not, rotate the drum to put one there. This way, at all times, the driver can press a button and the end effector will grasp a single baton as long as one is available.

This would be a very fun robot to drive... all you would have to do is "run over" lots of batons and then load them in whatever orientation is required.

Now that this thread has become quasi-popular, the GDC is reverting their design back to the origional curling idea.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Oh god, what have I started!?!!! :eek:

"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds"

:p

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

i think a sweeper idea would be the most effective, assuming the batons are in the open, or not agianst walls.
But, what if the batons are on a pedestal, or anywhere the robot does not drive on? I think the simplest idea would be just a single grabber, like a pair of pliers with rubber on them. You might need a strong pneumatic to keep it closed if you caught the very end of the baton, it is large and/or heavy.
You might even be able to have two grabbers, seperatley operated. they could grab one together, or grab two seperatley. that might be cool

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

I feel a need to insert a ghetto design, so here goes. I'd use a four door hinges from a random door or hardware supply store. (long ones, not househole hinges.) Then get some sort of softish foam (wrestling matish) or, more ghetto, make small pillows. These would go on the ends of the hinges, which are controlled via servo, or some motor. So, the soft parts on the gripper allow the baton to be less slide prone and the hinges are very ghetto. :)

Don't feel like firing up MAX at this hour, so here is my ghetto rendering.

Top
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Side (it wouldn't be so steep in real life)

//\\
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(b)O
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Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Does a toothpick dispenser work with only one or two toothpicks in it, though?
(I don't know, it also doesn't seem like it would work if the toothpicks were scattered in random directions.)
I want a toothpick dispenser for xmas now.

Please continue with all the ideas, but a note if FIRST actually uses batons as a scoring object, it's unlikely they will be small enough to fit inside your robot (because of size requirements). So there goes the "driving-over-the-batons" idea. Unless you have an expandable chassis...

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Did you see HOT's bot? There is a lot space if you design to fall over at the begining of a match. I doubt the batons will be 60 inches long. If they are, an open ended toothpick thing like a keyed shaft and a expandable storage tank is all you need. An expandable chassis is sort of overkill, but not as hard as it sounds. A few pneumatic cylinders, maybe some telescoping stuff, a omni drive, and you're golden. Length and width adjustable, although you'd need a lot of slack in the wiring.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Problem is, getting golden while you're building the beast...;)

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

Or convincing some people that the pneumatics are worthwhile weight

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

I hear that. My team refuses to use pneumatics, the last time we did was our rookie year, '01. But, we had a lot of people leave, so fresh thinking abounds... sort of. None of our current members except the head teacher and my father (when he was on 900) have dealt with pneumatics, but a large number still suscribe to the "death to pneumatics" method of building robots. However, I hold a decent amount of sway with the head coach for some reason that I still haven't figured out, so we might have limited use of them this year.

Re: Design Challenge: Baton
 

This completely getting off the track of the thread, but pneumatics really are only better when you can afford or need short, quick motions. Motors are better for long, continuous and precise travel.(They're really easier to work with too by my view. Less electrically operated components to go wrong) From someone who has looked it over from all angles and recently returned from the "Pneumatics should always be used" stage, be careful. There comes a time/use/amount for every component, but the pneumatics are less flexible (in constant use) than motors. In my opinion...


But they'd be great to grab onto a baton!!!;)