American "Selectiveness"
 

The thing that annoyed me the most at the nationals was the Americans who are unable to think of anything outside the USA. About a quarter of the awards speakers who named the competition called it US FIRST instead of just FIRST. Many of these people spoke as if there were no international teams involved in FIRST, making constant references to American high schools and American students.

And don't tell me they were talking about North and South America as a whole. Nobody says it that way, and besides, there was a team from England so that’s incorrect as well.

What really annoyed me is that talking to Americans after the awrds ceremony, none of them seemed to notice. It's the American paradigm, to half of them, it doesn't pop into their minds that there is a whole world outside their borders.

This year there was an amazing expansion of FIRST in Canada. It went from 3 teams last year to 26 teams and a new regional! Canadian teams went from 0 awards in all other years to 13 awards!! including 3 regional victories and a regional chairman's award, against some VERY good teams. It is also considerably more difficult for Canadian teams to participate in FIRST because of our low dollar. It's also quite difficult for a foreign team to be at any FIRST event because they are so heavily Americanised. The resounding success of Canadian teams is due largely to the efforts of Mark Breadner and Woburn collegiate (#188). Why wasn't any of this mentioned? This is some really amazing stuff!

The reason it wasn't mentioned is that despite the name change and a bunch of superficial changes on the FIRST website, the attitude is that this is still an American competition and that the International teams are just along for the ride. There doesn't seem to be the kind of ownership that American teams have. For example, all those important people who went around visiting the regional. Didn't any of them feel it might be neat to see a new regional in a new country with 2 dozen new teams?

What I’m trying to say is that FIRST doesn’t really seem all that concerned with international teams. There’s the lack of credit, the lack of encouragement. Things like, ordering everything from small parts are much more difficult outside the USA. And worst of all is the idea that it’s still an American competition. As well as the frenzy of patriotism that simply manifests as extra long national anthems, and an obsession with the American flag!

Re: American Bullshit
 

Lets play a game of good idea bad idea

Good idea: Letting people know your problems

Bad Idea: Bashing America when over 90% of this board is American.


But lets examine the facts, many of these people are returning speakers, and as many people know change is hard so if you spent the last 2 or 3 years calling it US FIRST chances are that subconciously doing it. Trust me their is no American conspiricy to bash the other countries involved, but lets not forget where most of the teams are and where it was founded and where the nationals were being held. Why did it appeal more to americans? because its In AMERICA!. If it was in Canada im sure it would favor Canada.

The reason most teams didn't notice is because the simply Don't care what they call it, they could call it INTERNATIONAL FIRST and i bet you half the people won't notice. I don't really care what they call it ITS A NAME.

As for the american flag everywhere well its Patriotism, while im not a patriot i do have some respect for the people in my country, and i like the fact they they support our country.

Oh and By the way if we don't know there's other countries outside our borders what happens to those millions and millions of dollars we send out in forgin aid, what about the red cross, what about the american troops, what about the aid workers, Think a little bit man. America isin't filled with a bunch of $@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#es were a lot smarter and have a lot smaller egos than you think we do.

Try not to get to worked up over simple matters

Oh and you might want to get a flameretardent suit.

Ok, I can understand that the name is a gradual change. But that doesn't adress the problem that what happened at the Canadian Regional was essentially ignored. And as far as Americans being $@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#es, I'm not saying anything like that. It's just that it doesn't occur to many people that there are other teams. It's subconciously still an American competition.

I'm not saying Americans don't think of the rest of the world, there are the bombings and invasions and oil grabs and bullying of countries all over the world.

Oh god your asking for it, I'll let someone else handle this one.

Hahaha. Don't even get me started on American foreign policy. I'll be going all night.

you better stop NOW before you get banned like the last people did!!!

Yes it is bad, but it saves lives, helps countries grow, and stops oppressive dictators

wolfe go to the chat now.

YOu got to realize something about america we don't get to make the laws we get to elect the people who make the descisons once their there we have no control over them so BACK OFF

YEa dood.. you might wanna chill a little... It was started in america.. and will continue to have an american touch to it forever.. It started here.. and it will always have an american touch.. tho.. they didn't play our anthem out too much... and don't critisize.. i like Canada..

Sorry. can't chat. busy with other things.
And i am allowed to express my opinions.

I acknoledge that it is, in many cases the polititians, and i'm not layign blame on the American people. let me state that now. I'm talking about the government don't take it persoanlly I think in many cases if people understood what exactly the American government is doing they'd object. Canada really isn't much better in alot of these things. i'm not trying to get all high-and-mighty here.

We are writting a letter to first about that. And guys one more thing. I am really not angry at all. Niether should you be. If you have a real problem, debate it with me.

You flaming us dosn't fix the problem.. it intensifies it...

As for the national anthem, Thats disney´s responsibility
the freedom singers are owned by disney, and FIRST has no hand in that. As for the other things, its just a name.

American Flags - not BS
 

As a member of the team responsible for the passing out of American flags to each team, I feel obliged to respond.

First off, the title - please be more courteous - this type of language is not acceptable here.

FIRST was created as a response to a problem unique to the culture of the United States. We have one of the most technologically advanced societies on Earth, but we value those people doing the innovating and creating the technology less than, say, Japan or Germany. This is why it is still a priority of FIRST to still develop more teams in the US, as opposed to those in Canada, Europe, or South America.

Mentioned where? Lots of teams have great stories to tell. So they tell them here, on the CD forums, or they tell them in a Chairman's award presentation, or they'll tell them to a Judge when he or she comes by to interview them about their efforts in the competition.

The Liberty Singers (I think that's their name) sing the US's national anthem a lot. The way they sing it is the way they always sing it. They are a patriotic American singing group. It's kind of what they do. And to put it in perspective, the NHL has been an international league for far longer than FIRST, and those things still feature fans who insist on booing at the Canadian National Anthem. FIRST fans at least show respect.

118 is responsible for much of this. We passed out two American flags to each team. We did consider the possibility of printing Canadian and Brazillian flags as well, but in the end, decided against it. Six hundred flags is enough. Does this make us overzealous patriots worthy of scorn? Most people actually kind of liked the flags.

Shouldn't this be spelled with a 'z'? I guess it's a grey area. :)

Bottom line, don't take everything so seriously. The people giving the speeches are taking time away from their day jobs, reading speeches written too quickly and with incomplete knowledge about the competiton. They are there because they think FIRST is a good idea, not to slight Canadians.

Yes you are allowed to express your opnions but don't flame another country, I'll adimt i don't really like my govermnent, i don't agree with a lot of the laws, but it doesn't really give the citizen of another country the right to bash it, Go to chat.

Ok.. i think the best way to resolve this isn't to bicker... e-mail their team and let them knows whats going one.. eliminate the problem knot... not the whole strand of rope...

Ok, how did we go from US FIRST to American Government Consperiacy? I think I got lost with my punie american brain:( .

You see, we live in AMERICA! You visited AMERICA for FIRST. We wave flags in AMERICA. You waves flags in CANADA. They also wave flags in BRITIAN, BRAZIL, and countless other contires. Would you rather go to Palistine, India, or Somolia and see their patriotism? How about draging of innocent citizens. Killing of children. The massacer of the elderly. Do you like that? Disney is a surprisingly Patriotic place with lots of american roots and illiterations. So if you don't like it, do something american, don't go to it. Wow, such a hard concept. Don't give them your company. Spend your money somewhere else.

Go to chat......

He's allowed his opinion. He may be wrong, but he's allowed to express his opinion. :)

I like Americans too. They are generally nice people with a few exceptions. Like New York. (kidding. Hockey playoff reference. Go leafs go)

Good point Scottie. I guess that remark was out of line. I just found the anthem annoying. Form a musical point of view. I hate when Canadian singers mess with O Canada as well.

And sunny and joseph. I'm not angry. i don't want to get even. I don't hate you, or Americans in general. I'm pointing out what I think is a problem in an attempt to get some dialogue going. If you don't like that. Stop reading and posting.

As far as the flag goes here is my problem with it. When a disaster strikes in America, the media and therefore the majority of people just rally around the flag. I honestly saw more American flags in one day at the competition than I do Canadian ones in a month in Canada! Really not being sarcastic here. The idea is that patriotism is equivalent to flag waving. That’s a very simple minded approach. The other idea is that after 9/11 criticizing the government is akin to supporting terrorists. That more than wrong. That’s dangerous. At an important time the government should be criticized more than ever! Without dialogue, government messages become propaganda.

American Flag
 

The American Flag is probably the most popular thing in the USA.

I bet you can find one at almost any building (all schools/large companies) and many many houses have them...

The flag is what America is "based" around and overall its not increased much after 9/11 excpet for the usage of flags on cars (anyone else notice that?)


It's just a way of symbolizing America and our "ways"

:)

It's also an object that every from the USA can "gather around together" when something happens (ex. important person passes away or a person from the community or when something tragic happens)

Well, Wolfe never actually "bashed" the States in his previous posts. If he were to "bash", he would be hating all Americans, pointing out everything bad about Americans.

Also, although this board is 90% Americans, it doesn't make it wrong that we can't express ourselves. I admit that he used some inappropriate language but in general, he was just expressing his thoughts and observations.

As Wolfe said, us Canadians don't hate Americans. We are up here, in the north, and because we are NOT Americans, we have a unique perspective on Americans. There is nothing wrong with patriotism but when you start neglecting other countries' achievements, it makes you ignorant. FIRST is trying to become an international competition. And I think American teams should take note and respect FIRST's efforts at trying to globalization.

If people can't look past their borders, and see that humanity is a whole and not separate parts, we will never succeed.

By any chance are you xxx-Raven-xxx on danimation.com?


Okay i never said he couldn't express his opnions, feel free to. I don't really care what you think of my country, you don't experience it like i do. The people aren't like the sterotype. Yes we do need to look past our borders but thats two ways just because you think you know americans doesn't mean you do. FIRST didin't ignore the canadian regional, were you listenting to any part of the opeing ceremonies? they made a big thing of it there.

No, I'm not xxx-Raven-xxx. ;)

I never said we "know" Americans. I am just saying that we have a unique perspective. I ask you this: How many people are good at critizing themselves? Probably not many. And especially when a country tries to critize itself. It is difficult to "bash" yourself.

It is much easier to praise your own country. And in doing so, sometimes, many forget that OTHER people might be right.

I know they did mention the regional competitions outside of the US. What I was hoping was that they would recognize the people that started these regionals outside the US. Imagine the amount of work, organization, effort, and time used to do this. I think that the organizers of each of these regionals should be recognize especially since this is the first time this has been done.

For example, I'm impressed that teams from England and Brazil were able to attend and I would have wanted to know who organized them. But instead, they only mentioned it saying "yes, we did have teams outside the US here."

Really we are talking about 3 different things here.
- Canadian support and recognition at FIRST (or lack thereof)
- American patriotism in FIRST and outside
- Hockey

The first topic seems to have died out. It really was what this thread was supposed to be aboot. If you look at the work done by team 188 and the Canadians at the regional it is truly outstanding and worthy of being mentioned. The recognition of international teams was very weak at best.

The second topic is really what people are getting angry about. What I am saying is that the level of patriotism in America is at such a high level that criticism of the government in the media and by people no longer occurs. People should be incredibly skeptical and critical of their government ALWAYS. And there’s a lot to be critical about!

The third topic we haven’t really talked about as much as it deserves. Leafs are going all the way. Islanders suck.

I am not:
Bashing the American PEOPLE
Saying I hate Americans
Saying I hate America
Saying Americans are stupid
Saying Americans are inferior
Saying America is inferior
Saying Americans are all a certain way

They called is US FIRST....that is/was the name of the organization....ever notice how you go to www.usfirst.org ??

So, it's a habit for someone who has been involved with this program longer then you probably have known about it to call it that....oh well....

I think that if you have a problem like this, Wolfe, bring it up to the people at FIRST. These forums are for fun and for some people for useful for information, not for critizing other countries. I think you should just stop and think about what is going on and talk to FIRST about it. They are always welcome to hear what you have to say. Most people here aren't. Just a little word to the wize.

I Dream of a World Where Everybody Is Happy!
 

OK, what were you trying to point out? That we are diffrent than Canadians? Wow, we didn't know that already...

We grew up diffrently, do stuff diffrently, and we have tons of flags around. Pre and Post 9-11, we had lots. Its not that we duct tape them to your face and blared the american anthem in your ears 24/7. We sang the anthem with a flag, just like canada.

As for our polocies, what has Canada recenly done? We are movers and shakers, we change the world for humanity. We have diffrent views, yes, so leave it at that.

Re: American Flags - not BS
 

I think the whole "mentioned where" thing is exactly what Wolfe is getting at. While teams may mention it (heck, my team got the regional Chairman's Award for it), it is slightly disappointing that FIRST does not. They like to talk about significant expansion and growth of FIRST, but selectively. I'm not trying to make people feel bad or hostile (and I'm sure that isn't Wolfe's intention either), but currently, that's the reality of it. Most people simply don't realize it until it actually affects them.

First of all. I understand that US FIRST name mistake now. Really that makes sense and it’s a forgivable mistake. However calling all the teams Americans is something different. It’s not just a name

The thing is not that American patriotism annoys be extensively. It does a bit, but that’s personal and irrelevant. The point is that patriotism gets in the way of the public doing a good job of criticizing the government. Doesn’t anyone have any thoughts on this that have nothing to do with Canadians? I’m interested to know what people think.

Also about first reconizing Canadian acheivements.

So. You guys think the Leafs will sweep the Sens like last year?

Uh... I think a moderator should change the name of the thread... the word tagged onto the end would make it offensive for any country :P

Maybe change it to "Selectiveness"?

I agree. The end is very offensive.

FIRST originated in America, and American it should remain. Plus, I feel that when we say US FIRST, we aren't just saying the US. US FIRST is just our name, but its not completely who we are. Yes, a high percentage of the teams are American, but we still accept everyone.

I completely agree. But the point that Wolfe is trying to make, is that when there is something worth mentioning regarding these "other people", namely international participants, it should be mentioned accordingly.

There have been times where FIRST has accordingly given full recognition to non-US participants - but there have been more times when FIRST have beat around the bush about these things.

An example of this is at the Kickoff, when one of the speakers referred to the Canadarm as the "... robotic arm" (with the hesitation included). Sure, the competition is rightfully referred to as US FIRST.... but stuff like what I mentioned above makes for a double standard :(

I have to agree with that. The title is inappropriate. I sincirely appologise to anyone I have offended. THe intention was to get people to read the post, not to anger people. I tried to change it but i can't. if a moderator could change it that would be great

Hi, I critize my govemnent every chance i get, im a member of the ACLU, what else would you like

and raven whats with the wink, were you lying or something?

For that, kane, you are a good man. I know that likely you are very outspoken in many of these matters. The base problem is the media.

Why isn't the media all over george bush? the man just started a war, killed thousands of civilians, decided to invade 3 other countries, is banning stem cell research, is cutting heathcare to buy bombs, is destroyign our environment, and is caught up in the enron scandal. People, I could go on and on and on.

The media should be all over this bafoon like a fat kid on a smartie! but they aren't! Because they see it as being unpatriotic. So all this stuff continues!

I must disagree as well. I take myself to be very patriotic, but that in no way gets in my way of critisizing the government. In fact, it even helps it! I don't want to get into my political views here, but let me assure you I in no way agree with everything the government does but when I wave my flag, I agree with everything the government represents. I wave the flag for freedom, not for foreign policy.

Stephen

Not trying to get in too deep with this thread, I just want to point out the opinions of a lot of people in the pits.

During the opening ceremonies, I was in the pits. They broadcast the anthems on all the screens. During the Brazilian and Canadian anthems, there was almost no change in the pits. I was at the Small Parts table when the Brazilian anthem came on. I saw a whole two people putting their work down and respecting other teams' national anthems. Then as soon as our national anthem came on, the pits went silent.

I was disgusted.

People honored their anthems, but they thought nothing of the anthems of other peoples' countries.

Each anthem meant the same exact thing to different teams. The Brazilian anthem means the same thing to Brazilians as the Canadian anthem means to Canadians and yes, the same thing as the American national anthem means to us Americans.

Yet almost no one in the pits respected the other anthems - songs that instill the same amount of pride to other teams as your anthem does for you.

Yet no one cared - us Americans in the pits honored only our anthem.

If you were in the pits, did you even notice the other anthems? Did you stop what you were doing like you did for our anthem? Or were you one of the people who thought only of themselves?

In protest, I did not put my hand over my heart during the American national anthem.

Just letting you all know how much we 'proud' Americans respect other countries.

:) Kids, behave now.

This is a great event, and it is fantastic that there is an international involvement. But it is a US based organization, being held on US soil. And this year, more than anytime in my memory (and I am an old guy) patriotism is running high - and I think that is great.

PS - we had a US flag, and a Canadian flag, on our robot thru the entire event. Would have had a Brazilian one but we couldn't find one.!!!!

fact: everyone in the world is selfish and self-centered (go ahead...try to debate me on that one)

so americans are self-centered....so what else is new?

this may be a little off topic, but was anyone else there for the fireworks at the team party, when the crowd sang the national anthem together. i heard it start, put my hand over my heart, and started singing. i was surprised how well i knew the words, having never really sung it before. that, for me, was the highlight of the otherwise dull team party, so i thought i'd see what other people thought.

Stephen

I think it'd be really good if Brendon or Mike could make this entire thread go poof and disappear. Eh?

A quick summary of what happened here, if you're joining this late.

1- Someone in a foul mood posted a winded rant about various grievances, both percieved and real, he had, especially about a bias FIRST may or may not have towards international teams.

2- Several patriotic Americans stood up and defended their country.

3- FLAME WAR!! oi.

As both an American citizen and a Canadian by heritage, please, just stop arguing over this. It's like debating which side of the Mississippi is better; there's very little difference between the two countries at all. Were we debating the merits of fascism or communism, you could say there was a great chasm, but at this point the debate comes down a contest between the Sacajawea and the Twoonie.

Chill out. Do I happen to agree with America's current foreign policy? No. Would it matter if I did? Not really, seeing as how this is a message board about a high school robotics competition.

Yes, FIRST used to have the "US" prefix, yes, a lot of veteran teams and people still refer to it as that. Just like we still refer to the Championship as "Nationals" and most likely forever will.

Yes, having things go through Customs and such is difficult, especially after the 9-11 crisis, but just imagine what the Brazilian team has to go through, I'm sure its quite worse. What exactly can be done about the matter, anyway?

I'm sorry if anyone has a problem with Americana - and don't worry, I occasionally do as well - but here is the least appropriate place to vent such frustrations that I can imagine.

:rolleyes: Can't we all just get along?

Truth be told, being Canadian, I find that I don't know much about America that isn't negative. All I hear about are the bad things, and I understand that I can't make a judgement on Americans without learning more about them, but why do I only hear the bad things? Why do I hear that American troops have killed 4 of our soldiers, reasons unknown, that America, although a great help to the world, only gives out under 1 percent of their GNP, while Norway donates over 9? I think what non-Americans see is a lot of negative stuff, and we wonder why the American people don't correct this. Why do they let, quite frankly, bad politicians run their country? America has the potential to be so much more than what they are, or at least what we see.

And regarding FIRST, they HAVE officially changed their name and dropped the US (so I'm informed), but why the pervading Americaness? I understand that it was originally an American thing, but it's NOT anymore, and being a sensitive person, i'm sort of hurt that Americans won't acknowledge Canada, or Brazil or England for that matter, as a really important part of FIRST. Why must the underlying Americaness remain? Okay, the competiton started because a group of people thought America needed to boost it's technology level. Who says Canada doesn't need that too? It's not a special American thing, and don't let's get into the brain drain we're experiencing...

DON"T YOU EVEN DARE SUGGEST THAT AMERICANS AND CANADIANS ARE THE SAME

Please tell me you meant that as trying to bring some humor into this thread...

Which part, the first post or the second? Because I am quite serious about the second. Now we've got the flip of before, with Americans assuming they know all about Canadians. We are VERY VERY different, let me tell you.

I interpreted the second part, due to the caps and the emphasis, as you flaming the other side and saying your side was superior, in which case you would be playing off of popular stereotypes... never mind....

As I said in my first post, I don't really want to get involved with this thread if its just canadians flaming americans and vise-versa... once we switch back to the meaning of the thread - FIRST treating other countries with disrespect - I'll join in.

4 pages in 4 hours... that my be a new record.

Alot of good debate was had. I just have this bad feeling about letting it go on any longer, especially with the tone of some of the latter responses.

Sorry if you didn't get to post your thoughts in time.