new from IFI
 

hey look at this cool new wheel from IFI that I found. ;)
http://ifirobotics.com/robot-traction-wheels.shtml

cool aint it?

Re: new from IFI
 

Is that a game hint? Does that mean we'll need more traction next year?

Re: new from IFI
 

very cool. now i know what i want for christmas. here's hoping these ship in the kit...

Re: new from IFI
 

AndyMark, Inc. is also selling a very similar set of traction wheels. :]

Re: new from IFI
 

Here maybe even more of a hint: http://ifirobotics.com/images/wheels/IMG_0152.jpg

is that the...kit chassis?

Oh and on the andymark wheels are 4", 5", and 6" outside diameter whereas the IFI wheels are 4", 6", 8". Other changes that I noticed where the differences in the Tread with (a key player in friction)

Outside Diameter-Width (of tread)
AndyMark
4"-1.3"
5"-1.8"
6"-1.8"
IFI
4"-1", 1.5", 2"
6"-1", 1.5", 2"
8"-1", 1.5", 2"

Re: new from IFI
 

Anyone notice the title of the page?

Re: new from IFI
 

Hey, I'm not my dad, I dont know anything! :ahh:
I just thought these were cool, although the kit frame at the bottom (or what appears to be) might signals something.... :yikes:

Re: new from IFI
 

The method of construction they chose to use is very interesting.

Re: new from IFI
 

the one feature that makes me like these more is that (it appears) you can attach sprockets on both sides of the wheels. also, it appears that it would be relatively easy to make a hub for these that could keyed, and fit on the inside of the wheel.

Re: new from IFI
 

It also appears that the wheels are flat on the sides so they can be "stacked" to make them 2 or 3 (or more) wheels wide. Another nifty design feature. Hmm, by combining wheels of 1", 1.5", or 2" width you can have just about any width wheel you want in 0.5" increments. I wonder if they will be included in the KoP or how much they will cost. They seem to made from all stamped and bent flat material so they should be fairly cost effective/cheap. Cool design!

Leveling the playing field.
 

One of the things I like about IFI, AM, etc. offering these kind of cool products is that they bring good solid engineering solutions to many teams that have little chance of rolling their own.

Beatty, WildStang, TechnoKats, Chief Delphi, International Fuel Cell, etc, they have had access to these solutions from day one. Now many many more teams can have them on their robots.

I think it is a good thing.

Joe J.

Re: Leveling the playing field.
 

For some odd reason these wheels smell like JVN (and by the way might wanna coinsider some new deoderant dude) :-p

Re: new from IFI
 

That's what he wants you to think... Or maybe that's what you want us to think...

Re: new from IFI
 

Ha! Our team used that tread stuff on our wheels last year. It did work very well.

Re: new from IFI
 

I do not think that these have anything to do with this year's game or are a hint in any way. I do however thing they are a nifty product. They look extremely light weight yet adequately beefy. Who would have thought of using sheet metal for wheels? There is no price, but i am guessing that these should be signifigantly cheeper than offerings from places like RobotCombat.com and AM which are either turned or cast. My only complaint is that there is no 5/8" shaft option, but all you need to do is buy different bearings.


----- edit ------
It is interesting to note that the page title is "IFI Robotics - FRC 2005 Kit Parts". perhaps they will be in the kit or we will receive a voucher to order whatever size we want.

Re: new from IFI
 

I would almost guarantee these will be shipped with the kit frame. In FIRST's new neverending quest to try to equalize teams, they released the kit-bot. In actual competition, the frame and gearboxes seemed to perform very well, but teams using the skyway wheels were at a major disadvantage. From experience, they slid sideways more easily than simply pushing against them. FIRST will once again attempt to equalize the playing field by adding more support to the kit frame. I should say rather that FIRST is trying to raise the level of competition.

Re: new from IFI
 

For this conjecture to have a hope, wouldn't it need to read "IFI Robotics - FRC 2006 Kit Parts" <grin>?

-Kevin

Re: new from IFI
 

We're on to you lil'lavery, you and your trickery..

Re: new from IFI
 

And then if they do include them in the KOP, I would almost guarentee that there would be an outlash of criticism from the community complaining that in their quest to help make this thing easier on rookies and newer teams, IFI subsequently made it so their robot can't turn :p

Re: new from IFI
 

If we were supposed to believe that, you never should have made this post! :ahh:

Re: new from IFI
 

Yes, but only after teams in their quest to get more traction created 8 wheel designs, after IFI specifically gave them skyway's to put in front...:D

Re: Leveling the playing field.
 

Hear, hear. Let's reward the folks who produce things that we like by buying their products!

Actually they smell like rubber conveyor belting, with faint hints of adhesive. But I can confirm that their design carries the talented Mr. Vielkind-Neun's fingerprints.

Earlier today, I was lucky enough to see and handle the 4" and 6" IFI wheels shown at the link that started this thread. JVN brought them to the Pilot FVC event at St. Louis, and was nice enough to let interested people preview this soon-to-be-released IFI product.

I want some!

Re: new from IFI
 

I'm a member of the small but mighty "I think FIRST is getting too easy" club but I can't say I would really mind these showing up in the KOP. Shiny metal with grippy tread vs dull plastic with slick tread;no real contest there. :)

Re: new from IFI
 

Two supporting facts towards my "these will be included in the KOP" theory:

1. There is no proposed price on the IFI website. If they had a interest in selling them seperate from the kitbot, they would probably try and give teams a taste of the price, and get them out before build so teams can give them a test drive.

2. AndyMark has a traction wheel out. No, I don't think the indiana mafia is telling IFI they can't sell wheels, but IFI would have a better interest in including the 6" or 4" wheels, then selling separately the kind they don't include. As most teams used at least part of the kitbot this year, it would certainly mean lots of teams would buy spares.

But who knows. Maybe John and the gang over at IFI have finished that whole "waterproofing the electronics thing" and wheels won't be needed!:p

Re: new from IFI
 

I don't think that these (neccessarily) indicate anything about the game, but a lot of successful teams have used similar (although frequently milled) wheels, indeed, our team never even considered using the KOP wheels before, so this would make it easier for a beginning team.

However, having used the identical tread material before, I can attest that it wears out rather quickly, I hope they make it easy to change.

Re: new from IFI
 

I would tend to disagree with the running trend in this thread. I don't believe these wheels will be in the kit of parts for several circumstantial reasons.

1. If they were going to be in the kit, Why would IFI release them now? Did they release the kitbot chassis last December? Did they release the Kitbot Transmission last December? definitely not. Mind you, releasing the kitbotwould have given away details about certain rule changes(size constraints, 4 CIM's). Releasing these now only gives away the fact that wheels will be useful in next years game. Wow, who could have predicted that?

2. Different sizes - The fact that they offer different sizes at all tells me that they are intended to give teams options... and if there were in the kit of parts, teams would be stuck with whatever size they gave out.

3. Cost - I'd estimate that these wheels are going to retail for somewhere in the range of about $50 usd based on other competitive prices(AM). So say for arguments sake, say they cost IFI $30 to make.

So $30 x 4 wheels x ~1000 teams = A LOT of $$$$


And the reality is, a lot of teams just aren't going to use them. And that means wasted money for FIRST, and higher registration fee's for us.

So, in my opinion, these will not be in the KOP... and just aftermarket products(darn good ones at that). I could definitely see IFI going more indepth into the aftermarket robot component business. After all, a little friendly competition between companies is good for the customer. Helps keep costs down, and quality up.

Re: new from IFI
 

I definitely agree with the question of IFI releasing them early, but there obviously is some market interest with the different sized wheels. I have to disagree with the argument of increased costs causing FIRST not to include them. Exhibit A: The kit bot itself. The material in the frame itself has over 1000 square inches of 1/8 aluminum in it, whereas a 6" wheel probably has like 100 square inches of 1/8. so, with two wheels included, that less than 1/5 of the kit bot material. They could probably use scraps!

That notwithstanding, they probably don't actually cost 30 bucks to make ( I know you were just using an example...but I'm in a number mood.) At a high price, which IFI probably won't have in bulk, 1/8" aluminum costs like 9.7 cents a square inch. .097*100=$9.70. Add in 7 dollars for two good 1/2" bearings, and the total is 15.70. I don't know how much wedgetop costs, but lets say 3 bucks to cover a wheel. Add in a bit of hardware and we're still only at 20 bucks. Thats as much as we paid for a spare side rail.

So, assuming IFI only gives us two, with two skyways in front, thats 40 bucks added onto the cost, minus whatever the skyway's cost FIRST. Sounds like a good deal to me for what you would get out of it by helping teams out!:)

Re: new from IFI
 

yeah, it sounds like a good deal... until you multiply by 1,000 :rolleyes:

Re: new from IFI
 

Yeah, but remember, whatever is in the KOP is multiplied by a thousand.

Last year alone:
$150 for the CMU
$300 for two gearboxes (estimation)
$100 for the kit frame
+____________________
$550 added on by FIRST to the cost of the kit. At least. So, $40, which would be a 7.2% increase in the kitbot's cost this year, sounds like a walk in the park to me compared to last years increase, for a rather needed improvement to the kitbot. It is a fact that we'll be getting the kitbot in the future; there was simply too much much put into it all (gearbox especially) for FIRST to throw it away. However, we may get it in a slightly modified form. And really, if something is going to be around for awhile, wouldn't IFI try and improve upon it? I really, really hate accounting, but the numbers tell the whole story.

Re: new from IFI
 

They also have a use as just a hub. A team can experiment with different coverings if First throws a weird surface at us.

Re: new from IFI
 

As an aside, those items almost certainly cost less. Im not sure about the CMU cam, since they may have had to pay for them all, and didn't get them donated, but it surely can't cost $300 for the transmissions and $100 for the frame, because IFI wouldn't be selling them at cost to us as aftermarket parts.

I can't see this ending up as a positive if they're put in the kit. If Team A gets 4" wheels, they'll complain since they want 6". If Team B gets 6" wheels, they'll complain that they wanted 4". Team C will complain that they wanted the 1/2" bore, not 3/8" Team D will complain that there's only two of them. Team E will complain that their robot can't turn because of IFI.

If these were "one size fits all", I could see them sending them out in the kit, but why send out a wheel that has so many different options? 4" 6" 8" roughtop or wedgetop 3/8" or 1/2" bore. 1" 1.5" or 2" width.

Re: new from IFI
 

Why?

So if they send out 8'' wheels in the KOP and you want a low center of gravity you will go out and buy their 6'' or 4'' wheels.

Re: new from IFI
 

Teams complain about everything (We want 4 wheel drive! The chassis is flimsy! etc. etc.). How would this be new?

Why do they send out any wheels at all in the KOP? And yet, they still do each year. Every KOP gets the same type of wheel, and, if going by last year's example, you can pop then on the kitbot frame and have a working drivetrain. If teams don't like it, they go make their own or buy different versions, just like it's always been with Skyway. Again, how would this be new?

That said, the thought of an ordering system a la pneumatic cylinders crossed my mind, but if these end up in the KOP, I just expect everyone to get the same 2 or 4 wheels. And if we don't, I'm still getting them. :D

Re: new from IFI
 

As has been said above, noone will complain more than about anything else, and if they do, as usual, they can shove it in their pie holes. The fact is, First just has to say, the frame takes 3/8" standard. So thats what you get. The skyways are 6" wheels, so you get six inch wheels. We think wedgetop wears better ( just an example!), so you get wedgetop. End of story. If you want something different, get it yourself, or buy it from us.

And the costs lower, but still close to as high for the kit bot as I said. At IFI,
http://www.ifirobotics.com/kitbot.shtml, the price for the kitbot frame is $190.
Revision 1, the frame should cost IFI $95 to make. I was a little high.

I was however, astronomically high for the gearboxes. IFI retails 'em for $150, so they're prolly about 60-80 dollars to make. Should've done my homework there dang'it. Sooo....a revision is in order.

$150 for the CMU
$150 for two gearboxes (estimation)
$ 95for the kit frame
+____________________
$395 added on by FIRST to the cost of the kit. At least. So, $40, which would be a 10.13% increase in the kitbot's cost this year still seems like a walk in the park. My argument remains:IFI will try to improve their platform in the kit this year. The wheels are where to start.

Re: new from IFI
 

All,
Yes, I designed them.
IFI will begin selling mechanical products for the 2006 FIRST season. These wheels & aluminum sprockets will be one of our flagship products.

We will be posting them for sale, ASAP. Definitely before Christmas.
There will also be more details posted shortly including weight, cost, & CAD drawings.

Non-Quantitative Answer:
(They are light as a feather, and strong as a brick.)

The tread is riveted in place with 1/8" aluminum rivets or held on with screws (no hardware for attaching tread is included). This is the same method used by 229 (and many other teams) in the 2005 season.

Each of the side plates extendes beyond the wheel-rim a small amount (.08") to provide reinforcement against side-loads on the tread.

#35 Aluminum sprockets will be 1/8" thick, in a variety of tooth counts (ranging from 22 to 96).

The contents of the 2006 kit will not be released until January 7th. No information can be released until that date.


"This is how we roll..." ;)
-JV

Re: new from IFI
 

Continuing the trend of reading way too far into anything posted by someone who may or may not have insider info...

Clearly John is trying to say IFI will be producing Omni wheels :rolleyes:

Re: new from IFI
 

A set o' wheels for Christmas! What a nice present for any team to receive!

Re: new from IFI
 

Is it just me or does anyone else see IFI eventually turnining into an all-out robot parts supplier with motors, gearboxes, drive components, etc sort of like RobotMarketplace (robotcombat.com)? That would be awesome!

Re: new from IFI
 

Ha, I have the sinking feeling that I lose this debate, regardless of my argument...:rolleyes: Still, I look forward to being able to have some more robotics suppliers dedicated mostly to FIRST.

Re: new from IFI
 

This isn't battlebots :P (robotcombat.com), but I love these new wheels, you have less chances of tiping over too since it's so wide.

Re: new from IFI
 

Those two things have less to do with each other than you may realize. :)

Re: new from IFI
 

Hmm.. well now that I think more in depth, depends more on the shape of the robot, plus it's still has a fulcrum point.

Re: new from IFI
 

hmmm well, if the title was 2006 kit of parts it would be very ovious giveaway and people would be looking for 2006 stuff on websites :P

i think maybe we have to push heavy boxes up a hill or something this year.. we all know its gona be squares.

Re: new from IFI
 

Did John just drop a hint????!!

Yippee! Someone else that can have their every word over-analyzed, mis-read, inverted, converted, perverted, misinterpreted, reverted, and garbled besides just me!

OK, now on three, everyone go back through every post John has made in the last seventeen months, and you will find clues to at least half of the upcoming game. Ready - 1 - 2 - 3!!! :)

-dave

Re: new from IFI
 

??? The wheels are delivered without the tread attached?

Re: new from IFI
 

The wheels come unassembled, as a kit.
The tread will be cut to length, and included in the kit.

We did this to:

1. Make packaging/shipping easier.
2. Reduce Labor Costs

We figured, teams have lots of cheap labor they can use. These wheels are simple enough that anyone can build them.

Re: new from IFI
 

Are you referring to the S.P.A.M. sweat shops again? Am I going to have to send Arefin over to "discuss" this with you?

Re: new from IFI
 

Guess who's wheel this is from 2005 competition?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/pics/bin/113397174722.jpg
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/pics/bin/113397183997.jpg

Re: new from IFI
 

Is the outside ring sheet-metal as well?
Or is it a tube, cut to width?

Re: new from IFI
 

The outside ring is made of stacked sheet metal rings. You may want to try that.

Re: new from IFI
 

Does anyone want to see [somewhat] destructive testing of the new IFI wheels? ;)

http://www.vexlabs.com/video/IFI-Wheel_test.wmv


EDIT: I thought I was the first person to find the video on VexLabs, but Adrienne E. had posted it in this thread last night. :o

Re: new from IFI
 

Wait...so does that means that the hint is true? Or maybe this is a hint in and of itself.

The 2006 game will obviously have some sort of countdown. And there's also going to be some kind of ambiguity to the game. I suspect some sort of non-rigid, possibly fluid scoring object.

Re: new from IFI
 

Countdown... ohhh that's unheard of...

I am sure that Dave is just playing games with us... Games that might be true... :eek:

Re: new from IFI
 

Actually, it's not. In 2001 a game called Diabolical Dynamics was played in which the game was 4v0. By ending the match early, you recieved a multiplier to your score.

Oh and uh, sweet wheels!

Re: new from IFI
 

I really liked the idea of the game with the balancing ramp(was it diabolical dynamics?). It was a task a little more intensive than just hanging: you actually had to balance the thing. Sensors did not need to be employed, but they made the game easier. A physics challenge that was challenging! Now if we can only get a three team ramp...

Re: new from IFI
 

Ooooh, prices, specs, pictures galore now posted!

http://www.ifirobotics.com/robot-traction-wheels.shtml

Re: new from IFI
 

It sounds cool... until you realize that it was 4v0.

It was fairly interesting from a competitor's standpoint, just to see who could set the highest score.

It was pure hell to watch as a spectator without prior knowledge of the game.

And the elims were for the most part already decided as soon as the match pairings were released.

robot-robot interaction is WAY more exciting.

Re: new from IFI
 

Back to the wheels...

Not a bad price for what you get.

Nice work IFI. We may see these wheels on a lot of bots in 2006.

Re: new from IFI
 

You always need more traction. ;) The question is, will we be able to use it?

Re: new from IFI
 

Yeah, I guess the fact that I was a 11 year old kid kid who couldn't even get his lego robot to compete had a lot to do with my perception of the competition.:)

I am looking forward to a drivetrain intensive year. It seemed as though this year, because of the field, there were the teams, then the teams with the holonomic drives. They were cool, but it wasn't real diverse.

Re: new from IFI
 

These wheels look amazing. I'm big on reducing weight, and these wheels are way lighter than anything we could manufacture on our own. These are definitely a product we'll be considering after we see the game rules.

As for these wheels being placed in the kit, I'm leaning towards no. Talking to John, it seems like IFI just got in the tooling they need for the bearing holes. It seems a little late in the game to put something into production for 1150 teams, for the KOP. Especially since I believe the kits are being shipped relatively soon. I highly doubt these wheels will be in there.