Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

This year for the first time Pittsburgh and Cleveland are being held on the same weekend which seems to have impacted both of them. Neither one are full with Pittsburgh having 17 openings with 10 pending and Cleveland with 16 openings with 10 pending. Since in the past we try to attend both, this also means that we will have to travel a considerable distance to attend our second regional which will cost more in time and money. Anyone else in the same difficulty? What do you think FIRST will do with these really small regionals? I can't understand why they scheduled 2 regionals in the same geographical area for the same weekend. Anyone know? Ms. K, Team #63

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

In general, FIRST is moving in a direction where most HS will be able to attend a local regional, and if they have the funds, also attend a larger 'area' regional, and possibly the championship.

the term 'super regional' has been tossed around for the last few years - events with 60 or 80 teams, in a city with major attractions, a great location, a big party on Friday night.

In the past, Cleveland has leaned more towards being one of the super-regionals, and pittsburgh has been more of a local regional.

I dont know if FIRST headquarters is calling the shots on these, or trying to push certain venues to max out, but since FIRST is too big for all teams to attend the championship, this is the direction we will have to take (with the eventual goal of having a FIRST team at every HS in the US).

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

I believe that the reason for the dates is mainly due to arena availability. This is something that is really out of FIRST's hands. FIRST would make more money if all of the venues were full so it doesn't make sense to choose to have venues conflicting.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

The CSU Convocation Center is a nice event venue. 931 went to Buckeye last year, but we can't this year because the date conflicts with our home regional (STL). Like many teams, our selection of a second regional was strongly influenced by its dates, location, and availability. And when I found out that we could get in at Karthik's event (Waterloo), there was no need to look further!

I see that Buckeye has set their capacity at 60 teams again this year and has paid entries for 34 of those slots, with 10 more shown as pending payment. I think they had 48 teams last year, so this year may be down slightly. I have not seen the venue with 60 teams present, but it did seem crowded to me with 48, so I think a 70+ team "Super Regional" there would strain the arena. I don't know what they would do for pits if a second field (like at GTR) was added.

Many existing regionals have the same kind of venue limitation. STL had 44 teams last year and is expecting 40+ this year. To increase capacity we would need to find another venue.

Sorry for the rambling... My main thought here is that FIRST HQ will probably need to take an active role in planning for super-regionals if they are going to become a realistic alternative for teams that don't go to the Championship.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

I too have a couple comments on this.

461 attended Midwest Regional in Chicago for a long time, and this year Midwest and Boilermaker are the same weekend. I understand that venues cause issues, and I'm just glad things worked out.

However, a part of me is sad that we won't be at Midwest. Friends are discovered at regionals, and it's a joy to come back a year later and see them again, especially if they don't attend nationals/championships. I am extremely excited to attend Buckeye, but I know that someday I'll want to go see Midwest again.

I am sure new traditions will come, but costs get high as teams have to travel further. Good luck with expenses, and enjoy unfamiliar regionals.

*shameless plug* BMR is fun */plug*

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

A big change is the fact that their is no NASA grant for the Buckeye regional this year. Last year, we were one of many who attended because we had the funding to do so. The loss of the NASA grant in combination with the Pittsburgh and Buckeye Regional being in the same weekend is detrimental to these two events. I personally really enjoyed Cleveland last year and I am sad we couldn't return this year. Good luck to all those competing there!


GO 1403!!!

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Ms. K and I have had this discussion several times since seeing the schedule of regionals. It seems there are several cases of geographically close regionals being held on the same weekend. Cleveland and Pittsburgh were the ones that impacted the Red Barons because we have historically gone to both. The exception being last year when we chose to head north to visit Karthik and Co in Toronto.

Actually the situation was even more complicated for the Barons this year. We had previously considered going to the Finger Lakes Regional, but this year it is the same weekend as Pittsburgh and Cleveland. The three regionals that were the closest to us here in Erie, PA were all the same weekend!! Go figure!? How many other teams have been forced to chose between regionals they had previously attended which were now on the same weekend??

I note there are currently 6 regionals with double digit open capacity. I also wonder how long a regional like Pittsburgh can continue with 23 teams?

Also, we have been at Buckeye in the past when there were 64 teams attending. There seemed to be plenty of room then. Just a thought, but if Pittsburgh only has 23 teams registered or pending, why not cancel Pittsburgh and add those teams to the 45 registered or pending in Cleveland?

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

because for many regionals a good percentage of the teams attending are local:

no chartered bus
no hotel rooms
the students go home at night - less expense for meals.

If you cancelled a local regional, many of those teams could not afford to travel to another city.

I had to check for myself: Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Rochester-NY all on the same weekend. Wow! Thats gonna make teams from our area really spread out this year for 2nd regionals!

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Ken,

Your point is well taken. However in the case of the 13 teams registered and 10 teams pending, only two or three appear to be from the local Pittsburgh area and would not be traveling and staying overnight. Many of the rest appear to be coming from fairly long distances, so whether the destination is Pittsburgh or Cleveland probably wouldn't matter that much. I guess I was really thinking of the long term viability of two geographically close regionals being held on the same weekend.

And besides, when you come down to playoffs, 3 doesn't go into 23 evenly!! :eek:

Seriously though, if Pittsburgh and Cleveland were not on the same weekend, they would both be close to capacity.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

When we selected Pittsburgh as the Regional to attend, it certainly was not because of the geographical argument. We looked at more than seven Regionals within driving distance and asked which would present the best opportunity for our students to develop and share the skills they have learned through this program. Pittsburgh was the choice we made. If that becomes unviable, FIRST should refund the teams entry fees, and allow the teams to decide whether or where to attend another regional.
FIRST obviously made a mistake by doing this, and hopefully they will take this learning forward as they schedule in future years.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

it seems like things should balance out in the big picture.

If 150 teams in the Cleveland, pittsburgh and rochester NH 'area' are all planning on attending 2 regionals, and this year they cannot goto their 2nd regional at one of these three cities, then they will have to go somewhere else

which means these teams will be registering at other regionals this year (other cities) - so those other cities events will be filling up faster, prompting teams to travel further to attend Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Rochester as their 2nd regional.

If 500 or 600 teams are funded to attend 2 regionals this year, they have to go somewhere, right?

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Or they may just decide to save the money not to go to a second regional?

GO 1403!!!

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Well, your friends down in Corry (306) have been struck with the same problem. We signed up for the Pittsburgh regional, and we decided to go down to Philly for our second. I think CIA may be going to Philly as well, though I can't be sure.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Yes, CIA is registered for both.

Last year, I believe only two teams went to both Pitt and Philly; Royal Assault (357) and MOE (365). This year it looks like at least 4 teams will attend both; CIA (291), Corry (306), The Metal Moose (1391) [pending at Pitt], and MOE (365).

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Perhaps. But perhaps not. There are two intertwined factors to be considered. Distance and finances. If the distance to be traveled increases significantly, then the cost will most certainly go up. A team may have funding to go to two of the three geographically closest regionals. If those were all on the same weekend the choice would be limited to one. If the next closest regional were farther away, an extra day of travel and perhaps an additional night or two of hotels could come into play.

To our neighboring teams 291 and 306: When are you leaving to travel to Philly? Are you traveling on Wednesday or are you leaving really, really early Thursday morning? And I would wager that if Pitt and Clev were not on the same weekend that you would have gone to both.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

To our neighboring teams 291 and 306: When are you leaving to travel to Philly? Are you traveling on Wednesday or are you leaving really, really early Thursday morning? And I would wager that if Pitt and Clev were not on the same weekend that you would have gone to both.[/quote]

Right now we do not know what we are going to do. But I believe that we will most likely leave on Wednesday.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Regional dates are usually set by the facility, not by FIRST, and are usually during the spring break of the campus where the event is being held.

There is not much FIRST can do, because there are limited arenas in any given city that can host.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

I am not sure I would agree with Chris. Regional dates are not actually set by the facility. The facility merely says here are the dates we have open. Granted, the dates may be limited by other contractual obligations, but the local event organizers have the final decision.

As far as the Wohlstein Center in Cleveland and the Petersen Center in Pittsburgh go, the primary users of those arenas are the respective schools basketball teams. And if those teams are still playing in March, then they are playing elsewhere as March Madness and the NIT are in full swing! Spring break probably has little or no impact on these arenas.

Concerts and other events are held in these venues. But they are not the primary sites for such events in their respective markets. The problem with scheduling regionals really comes down to a site having four or five open days in a row - three days for the actual event and a day or two for set up.

If FIRST is to continue to grow, more regionals will be needed to accommodate more teams. That will make scheduling issues even more complex. Perhaps FIRST will be well served to engage the services of a national promotion company like Clear Channel. Actually Clear Channel may be just the thing. They own, operate or have promotional rights at dozens if not hundreds of arenas and theaters nationwide.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

In previous years, we have attended the Pittsburgh Regional and it has been fun and dandy and a lot of good teams compete there.

BUT

This year we have an opportunity to go to the World Championship, so we are going down that path and we need all the money we can get out of it and unfortunately that is why we can not attend the Pittsburgh Regional. We wish a good luck to all the teams are going to P.R and hope to see you at the World Champs.

GOOD LUCK !

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

This is absolutely wrong. In order for BMR to happen, it must be when Purdue students are on spring break. Period. Otherwise the Armory is in use, and, oh say about 40,000 undergrads (plus faculty and grad students :ahh: ) are walking around campus, trying to drive and park, etc. The same can be said for the MWR which is at the University of Illinois Chicago. I only mention these two because I know first-hand about them.

You can't just think about the arena. You must think about the surrounding area (campus) when looking at a venue.

One perk of this, if you want to know early where your favorite regional is going to be, and it happens to be at a college campus, just find out that campus' spring break.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Actually, there are 2 "March Madnesses", you cannot forget the womens basketball tournament as well. The first round of these tournaments, 64 teams playing, require 8 regional arenas (some sports freak can correct me on that number), and the arenas are not "static" but change from year to year.

The NCAA may not grant a basketball playoff to a smaller arena (say Drexel), but the Pedersen Center certainly could be considered as a host for playoffs. So college basketball, can certainly affect the availability of these arenas during March.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Team #379 is EXACTLY right between CLE & PIT (along w/ two other teams: Chaney & Warren Delphi ELITE) - the same weekend scheduling sent our team into a whole other FIRST Frenzy! Neither regional had cost us hotel money or the cost of Charter bussing (our students always pay all food expenses, so that's irrelevant).

So, we're going to CLE (sorry PIT - we had sooo much fun dancing and cheering with everyone), and missing PIT. We can't stay the night at CLE (yeah, we meet at 5:30 a.m. and return between 9-midnight - that gives us about 4-6 hours of sleep, so please forgive us if we're not dancing and cheering & some of us fall asleep in the bleachers!).

Then, we had to decide where else to go. Logistics determined Detroit & Philly (giving up Atlanta for something new). But, we can only afford to take 4-6 members to Detroit at 3 a.m. on TH and the rest of the team at 3 a.m. on FRI morning.)

Because we're paying for hotels & charter bussing for 2 regionals instead of 1, even if we qualify for nationals, its doubtful the money will be available to go!

This will cut into our spirit and team togetherness. We really feel FIRST needs to oversee the scheduling so this doesn't happen so often. Coming up with the entry fee is tough enough when you don't have to pay for charter busses and hotel; add those extra expenses in again next year and we may not be able to make it (no corporate sponsor, we lost GM 5 years ago, and no school money for us).

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Please also realize FIRST has very little bargaining power with any of the regional venues. All of these relationships are based on trust and the willingness of the venue to do something good for the community. For events on college campuses, spring break really is the only time it's even possible to hold such an event. Field houses and arenas are not only for sporting events and concerts, they are also the workplace for many many people each day and they are in use by students/faculty all throughout the day for many purposes. Practices, meetings, office work, weight rooms, the list goes on and on.

In order to pull off an event you not only need the space for field and pit, but you need a judges room, a chairman's award interview area, an animation viewing/judging area, an event office where the production team calls home base (creates/prints scripts, schedules, meets, etc), an area for volunteers, VIP space, concessions, caterers, perhaps a social. Add into that the notion that load-in for the event begins on Tuesday or Wednesday. You also need security, EMT's, the list gets even longer. Parking, all those busses and trucks with event and team equipment ... this is no small undertaking. For a university to allow this type of activity and make all of these arrangements while school is in session is nearly impossible.

This of course leaves the larger, professional arenas. In many cases this is a much more costly endeavor and a harder sell to people who are generally motivated by profit alone. Some cities pull this off with great success, but it's a small number.

There is no doubt FIRST is well aware of the crossover/proximity/date issues every year. When faced with the choice between having or not having an event, FIRST will always try to hold the event and give more students an opportunity.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Point is well taken regarding the "other" March Madness tournament. But I would wager if the NCAA held a regional or sub-regional in Pittsburgh, it would be at the Mellon Arena which seats 17,500 for basketball/hockey. If the NCAA went to Cleveland, the event would undoubtedly be held at the Quicken Loans Arena (don't you just love the commercialization of names?)
which can seat 19,000+ for basketball. I would imagine both places would be well out of the budget range for a FIRST event.

Just out of curiosity, how big is the typical arena that a FIRST regional is held at? I can only speak to the ones where I have attended.

Cleveland - Wohlstein Center - 13,500
Pittsburgh - Petersen Center - 12,500
GTR Mississauga - Hershey Centre (Canadian spelling!!) - 5,400
Atlanta - Georgia Dome - 80,000

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Last year CSU hosted the first round of the NCAA tourney, plus two rounds of the NIT tourney. Pitt usually does the same thing. A lot more money in NCAA events than FIRST sadly. The Q (Gund) has never hosted an NCAA event as far as I can remember.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

The Boilermaker is about 2200 max capacity for seating people, and we have to bring in bleachers to our venue. That capacity is the safety fire code max for us.

A note about sports arenas also - some venues, like college campuses, may not be willing to give up or rent out their facilities due to many factors. In our case, there may be sports events scheduled late that take precendence over a robotics event in the sports arena, so if we reserved it, it doesn't mean we'll get to use it. We have a smaller venue due to that, but most events I've been to, it's been hard to match the excitement and atmosphere created in our smaller venue.

Anyway, the scheduling looks pretty harsh in some areas with nearby regionals all on the same weekend. Hopefully waitlisted teams have the means to spread out and attend other unfilled events.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Can anyone recommend some hotels for the Pittsburgh regional? None of us are familiar with the area. We're from Maryland, and we're only bringing a small group to Pitt of about 10 people total, which would stay in 4 hotel rooms. We have a very small budget. We'll probably drive ourselves there, so it doesn't have to be within walking distance of the site, but we would prefer it if it was. Thanks!

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

MOE is staying at the Hampton Inn University Center. It's a short walk to the arena (maybe 6 blocks), but it's all uphill. Makes it easy though at the end of a long day cheering in the arena. (Bring your skateboard, and it could be real easy!)
They have a free breakfast. In the evening, we use the breakfast nook to gather together and swap old robot war stories! :D
Let us know if you decide to stay there also.

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

I feel a lot of empathy for the teams that don't get to return to regionals and see teams they befriended, but on a lighter note, I'M SO EXCITED TO GO TO PITTSBURGH! Besides, why go to the same regionals every year? It's better to get out there and meet new people!
Cheer up folks, you can start a new tradition. :)

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Well Pittsburgh finally hit 24 teams, the minimum complement for a full playoff structure. Yay!!!

Think of the match cycle times though, and it's very interesting. 6 bots on the field, 6 waiting to go on the field, and 6 or 12 in the queue. You'll be taking your bot off the field and walking right back to the queue.

Build them ROBUST folks, you won't have a lot of time for repairs; and make sure you designate a "Battery Runner" long before you get there. You won't always have time to take the robot back to your pit to replace it.

Oh, and after the competition, make sure to recognize the efforts of your runner. To be sure, it's a menial task, but it will be the most important at competition. Without power, all the other aspects of competition will become lessor (driving, scouting, repair, etc.)

"For want of the nail, the shoe was lost . . . "

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

Team 1249 is in the same situation. Both are regions that we attended in the past and can only attend one this year. We first picked cleveland and then decided to attend Pittsburgh because we won the championship there last year and wanted to try it again. We are now having to travel to South Carolina for our second region. This is really playing with our budget this year because of extra expenses in travel. See everyone in Pittsburgh this weekend. :]

Re: Pittsburgh and Cleveland Regionals
 

but it ended up OK for us, didn't it? :) Pittsburgh was tight.
Are there other regionals with right around 24--or less? For whoever didn't come to Pittsburgh and didn't know how this was handled, 7 alliances were chosen, and the first seed got a bye into semi-finals. Good job 395 and partners 1038 and rookie 1743!
Nice meeting everyone; I'm sure we'll keep bumping into each other.