Re: Official FIRST Hint declassification
 

Trivia question time--What's worse than 4v0?

5v0, of course ;)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

It's interesting that the clue is in the form of an extended haiku (8-10-8).
Now, haiku are normally 5-7-5 patterns, so maybe this year's competition has an alternating number of robots on the field - maybe one robot out of six is chosen to sit out a round, and get put in the next round.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Just to be a pain in the posterior (I hope that word won't be bleeped out), I'm kind of thinking of another idea for the pasta comment.

I'm thinking that there is some sort of a middle "robot" which holds 4 "strings", and that 1 "string" is attached to each robot. Either that or in some way, there is a string attached to each robot which cannot be removed (power source or something) and limits where the robot can go (keeps it on some sort of a track). If following that philosophy, a "shovel's show" might be what is produced in a dig, aka, you have to dig through some sort of a ball pit to find some extra object. As for the green heights of Montana, I think that we're looking at some sort of climbing robots being necesssary with a prize at the top of whatever they're climbing.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

5 bots, well mayb 2v2 again w/ an obstcle bot or something.
seeing Montana's green heights, definently a chance w/ the camera coming back, an montana's heights..dont they have mountains?? so maybe something to do with climbing.
Pasta?? maybe pasta being a rope of some sort and maybe if there's meatballs involved w/ pasta..something to do w/ ropes and balls. (credit to my friend)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

1. Five bots tangling with pasta: Bots must move in and around pieces that are tangled or slippery
2. A game piece obsessed with a shovel's show: A mound of some sort in the field area
3. Seeing Montana's green heights: Montana equals Big Sky Country

The game would consist of an uneven alliance moving through a tangled web of pieces with a camera aiming at a target on top of a mound. Thus King of the Hill on a slippery slope with obstacles that can only be cleared through partnerships.
Whoo, I'm tired already.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

first is all about team work so they wouldn't get rid of the teams

the competitions can't run 2v2 again with the number of teams that participate, it would require less playing time, less matches, or a longer competition. It seems we have overpopulated FRC to a point where we can't to 2v2

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Even though I love 3v3 from a strategical standpoint, I think that 2v2 could be done, in fact it almost has to be done if a 2004-esqeu platform or 2001 style barrier makes a return with the same size field we have now. The matches don't need to be shorter either. Much of the time on the field is taken up with resetting the field. It takes a long time, so if the field is easily reset, or maybe even doesn't need to be reset, then 2v2 can happen.

And now for something totally different:

I was thinking, can someone match up the ideas brought up in the stickies in this forum? Historically some things asked for are included in the game (vision camera is one example).

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

After thinking about this and reading this thread all the way through here are my opinions/ideas:

I think the fun noodles are a definite possibility as the game piece or maybe a multiplier (like the 30" balls in 2004)

I don't know about the five part most of the options have been discussed already so I won't repeat them, I'll just state my opinions on some of the ones I've read, 5 v. 0 I hope not doesn't seem like it would be as much fun., It seems like 3 v. 3 worked well last year I would like to see it again., I like the idea of a FIRST "house" bot in 2 v. 2 game but it isn't practical when it comes to teams building practice fields.

The shovel clue might mean the robots have to pick up small game pieces (tennis ball, mini basket or soccer balls) and score them or deliver them to the human player for them to score with (that seems to close to 2004 though). Maybe the human player has a shovel like scoop to load small game pieces onto the robot.

I think the heights means the robots will either have to be doing something up high, maybe thats where the goal is or something (like the bar in 2004, goals in 2005), or there is some kind of platform or high part of the field (ramp and platform in 2003)



as for seeing and green parts: I hope this means the CMU Cam is back again, personally I think it was a good part of the game but they didn't make it worth the effort to use it.

Can't wait till Kickoff!!

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

The good thing about alliances is it forces teams to work together. With alliances if you don't help another team, they could be allied with you in a future match, and if they aren't performing well your alliance isn't going to be as strong. So Alliances force teams to work together. If it is 1v1v1v1v1 then a team could just go battle bots on an opposing team and none of us would want that, right?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Don't Panic, I made this on an animation software called Bryce 5. This is my vision or estimate of what the game will be. Feel free to mess around with the rules.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

where can we find this software?
to make our own designs

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

http://bryce.daz3d.com/55index.php

It's made for terrian, but like to use it for these kinds of things. Plus it's only $99

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

You know, this post brings to mind another post Dave made last January....

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

OOH SNAP!
that would change everything in the eliminations but what about the qualifiers?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

They wouldn't dare. :rolleyes:

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

that is very interesting, and maybe possible, I would be more worried qualifiers than elimination as well.

In elimination all alliances could just pick 4 teams, but in qualifiers what happens when a robot is broken and doesn't show up on the handicap team.

3v1 heh not exactly fair, however that did happen a lot last year anyways. Maybe the handicap team gets a point multiplier or something.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Ever hear of a shovel pass?

Here's what I'm thinking - pure speculation of course:

The rate of growth in FIRST teams has been in decline for the past five years. From 38 percent/year to less than 15 percent. Fifteen percent would not be too bad if it leveled off there, but the trend doesn't look good.

A number of us, Dr. Joe comes to mind, have argued that meaningful growth can not be expected without a TV friendly game. One that any couch potato can understand. One where a TV camera can focus on a single point of action, rather than a game like triple play with six robots, dozens of tetras, and nine goals. Not that Triple Play wasn't a great game to play. It was. But spectators want to be entertained, rather than watching others entertain themselves. And they don't like missing something that happened off-camera.

Most of us at the grass roots level who are trying to grow the game find it a very hard sell. Few potential sponsors know a thing about FIRST On the other hand, they know about NASCAR. Why? Because it's on TV - complete with sponsor logos plastered everywhere - and what is there to know, other than go fast - turn left?

So I hope these clues mean that we're going to play pool noodle football - with AstroTurfish carpet, yard lines, shovel passes, forward passes, flea flickers, and so on. Something that if/when put on TV the average Joe will understand well enough to keep him entertained, and prevent him from clicking the remote.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Okay, here is my initial take on this, but a more in depth analysis will come later on.

5 bots

Well, basically, I think that there will be a pentagonal field with 5 robots starting on each point (there have been hexagonal fields in the past). You can't have an even alliance with an odd number, so I don't know how that will work.... which then puts the idea in my head that it won't be just 5 robots OR there won't be alliances OR there won't be even alliances and there could be a 2 VS 3 dealy.

With the pasta

I don't think this is in reference to the game piece, but very questionable. The next two lines deal with the game piece. I think this will either mean the robots are tethered down by something and have limited movement OR are tethered like as in not wireless controlled (the latter don't think to much about. I think that it constricts the movement though, because tangling restricts one movements.

A lot of people on the chief delphi forums are neglecting the fact that it says "AND" in regard to the Montana thing. Meaning that both lines are in reference to the game piece. Meaning that the first line isn't. Now what I think of it is, is that you will have to scoop something up like a shovel would and place it in a goal or equivalent thing on a raised platform in the middle of the field.

I think the GREEN heights mean that you it is with the CMU cam like the vision tetras. Which could also hint at a longer autonomous mode or the shoveling and putting in the goal is something that must be done during autonomous mode. I am going to give it another day or so to think and look at it more so and read the chief delphi forums to get some ideas.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

2v2v1 would give the alliances the option of forming a super alliance of 2+2 vs 1, a strong alliance of 2+1 vs 2 or everyone for themselves. If we had winners get loser's score for QP, there would be little incentive to go with the super alliance unless the single robot was a really dominant one.

Or, FIRST could make it really complicated and award QPs as an inverse function of the number of robots on the winning alliance...

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

with the shovel pass post does that make the extra robot, all time qb?

Going back to our Joe Montana Reference?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

"and seeing Montana's green heights"
i don't think that, that refers to the CMU cam because it is just to obvious and its not like first to have a game hint where you can tell what it means within seconds of looking at it
that being said this is what i think it may mean:
a third alliance being introduced
why?
during the off season we played with our auton programs, and every once and a while if you held down the program button in a weird way the robot controller would begin to flash in a very strange pattern and the robot leds would flash red, blue, then to our great surprise green.
could this mean a new green alliance?
Edit:
i no longer think so since green is not a first color, however i still think it is to obvious for the CMU cam
Edit 2:
green was a color used by first, and the green led is actually a type of code fault error that the controller sends out to alert the field.
(thank you Ted Boucher)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Did anyone else find it odd that they released the hint so early, even BEFORE Christmas. This seems odd to me, I would have thought that FIRST would have given the hit to us at least after the Christmas holiday :)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Perhaps we'd see the two alliances with different objectives. The alliance with more teams playing an offensive role and the alliance with fewer teams playing a defensive role?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

That might be an interesting angle. Though I highly doubt it. Each Team's robot would be geared to offensive or defensive. Even if not meant to. And since the alliance colors are choosed randomly, (Meaning, without team having interference), One team could be geared totally torward offensive, but get defensive every match.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

A new alliance would be pretty insane, but i have no experince with any type of alliance becuase ive never been a compotetion but three would be crazy just from what i've heard from my team mates

[edit]
Ok so maybe if there is another alliance it wont be green, maybe the mentioned green to throw you to the camera but indeed a new allience but green makes no sence, so maybe its just there to show the alliance relation but maybe it'll be white to corrospond with the logo
[/edit]

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

ok here's a possiblity. Borrowing from other posts...what if it was a 1v1v1v1v1 game BUT tasks could not be completed without the help of another robot (on another "alliance"), such as one robot must be on a presure pad to lower something (from montana's green heights), but only other robot can complete the task with the lowered object...just an idea

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

i dont think they will do anything less or more than 3v3.. we have somany new teams that a 2v2 would be a killer at nationals. also, they can't make the field any bigger because of arena sizes. i know that t UCF in 05 it was pretty tight moving the robot arround and even at the palmetto regional it was as big as it could get.

Dave Lavery's latest away message: "The CLUE has been released! Why are you looking here?!!?!!"

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I still think this years game pieces will be the legs of last year's tetras.

This fits into the whole pasta/pick up sticks theory.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=119

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

i had acutally mentioned something like that earlier today to some people about using a PVC piece as the "pasta" i was thinking more or a less a piece with a 1'' dimetier and maybe 4-5' long...

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

ok, more possible connections with previous ideas:

2v3 with a lopsided field to give the 2 team alliance an advantage (remember, montana's flat on one end and hilly at the other)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I think someone on my team may have already posted this; What if we had to build something with the "Pasta"?. In a most basic sense, like lincoln logs. or K'nex. Just a thought, My design team is having a horrid time trying to figure out how to be able to precisely handle the Baton game pieces, if that is what they are.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

sorry to do this, but Mt. St Helens is in Washington...

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

How would FIRST determine "strong robots" from "weaker robots"? Even with that however, I'm a fan of 2v2v3! Why? It'll make for the best defensive battles up here in the Northeast! It also has the potential to make things very exciting for TV viewing.

(Which is continually brought up in the "Game Design" forum.)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

it may be just me...but where exactly is this animation?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I really like the idea that "five 'bots tangling with pasta" could refer to five (of the six?) are limited in mobility, and unable to perform specific tasks that others who are not tangled could perform.

I think the post made by Dave about lopsided alliances could be a definite reference to the "five 'bots". Could there possibly be a team of 3 v 2? or better yet, 4v(some number over 1). where the entire team of four is "tangled up", and only one team of the smaller is limited?

that would be cool, and it would even out the lopsided alliances

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

with the 2v2v3 i think it would be random who got the 3,

the 2 , 2 robot alliances could gang up against the one 3 robot alliance. then the 2 robot alliances would have an even field to take out each other

RP could be determined like normal


also i would like to point out that the hint says the "and seeing Montana's green heights" line is also referring to the game piece

relating to the idea of being able to pick it up in autonomous

maybe the game piece will be raised up high, 10 ft (hight of a goal post in foot ball)

new idea 1 team of 5 or 4 on tether, the other team of 1 or 2 on radio

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Tether sounds like it would suffice for the tanglemnt part but would it be a safe option?

SAFE meaning like the connection could possible come lose or come off and if that happens the bot would be imbolized right? i dont really understand the whole tether thing if the teather comes off...i dont know if it will just run wild or imbolized or what

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

five 'bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights

Art04 and I kicked this one around quite a bit and I agree with most of his points. What most people are missing in the game clue is that last year's clue was hinting at the GAME NAME. Montana's "Big Sky" country. So "Sky High" is right on for a game name. :cool:

"Five 'bots" I'll stick with 3v3. FIRST is always trying to get as many teams into the finals as possible. 1v1v1v1v1 would be reducing potential finalists by 1 robot possibly, and 1v1v1v1v1 games are not TV friendly. Viewers who aren't into FIRST wouldn't understand the game easily. Two teams of bots squaring off, that's easy to understand. If FIRST is to grow, they'll need to get more and more bots involved in games for the action and TV viewability. A third alliance, green? No, FIRST's colors are red white and blue, not green.

"pasta" Again, why is everyone assuming pasta is refering to spaghetti. Shells are shaped very much like footballs. Tieing in with the Joe Montana thought and JVN's gridiron vex bot. Those who look for trends in FIRST games thought this year would be a ball game again. Well what are footballs? Besides, has anyone thought about how the Human Player would interact with the bots? Noodles and pipes don't offer too many options that would be safe (javelin throw anyone?) or TV friendly. Footballs would again bring the athletic side to the HP position.

But if you really want to confuse yourself, just check out all the weird shapes of pasta. Spirals anyone (hmmm, Archemedes screws) or wagon wheels (Westward Ho..... to Montana!) :eek:

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show" Can you think of a better way to pick up footballs? or see below on the shovel's show = dig hole thought.

"and seeing Montana's green heights" seeing = CMU2 cam. I think its here to stay. Afterall, it is prominently displayed on the IFI page on robotics. "green heights" the vision target will be elevated. Tie this with the five bots and the new KOP high traction wheels and its a center raised platform with the target on top. Possibly five sided slope or five goal pits set into the platform (there's your holes gang). Make the ramps out of lexan and viewers can see what's in the goals :confused: . Low cost fields don't need this viewability so plywood would work. Goals being owned by which alliance has the most balls in the goal. (Similar to this year's FVC game) By having a center raised platform it keeps most of a TV camera's focus on mid-field (TV friendly viewing).

With the vision target at the top of a midfield ramp(s), the only question is what's the goal of autonomous this year and what happens when a team acheives autonomous success? :rolleyes:

More fuel for your thoughts. Anyone want to pick up this (foot)ball and run with it?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Not to flame anyone, but why would they use tethers? I know it fits the clue "Tangle" but be realistic. How many people are going to replace tethers every time they get cut, or damaged by the other robots? It's excellent that people are thinking outside of the box on this, but people have to take into account what is feasible and what isn't.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

i'd like to second this...FIRST removed the tethers for safety reasons (too many entanglements) and if you think about it, there have been RULES against potential entanglement hazards in the past few years...why would they suddenly go lax on that rule and PURPOSELY put tethers on every bot?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

i really dont think that there will be 2v2....think about it...less teams on the field at a time....more people involved in FIRST...soo there really cant be less teams on the feld..it would take too long...i think it might have to do with 2v2v2....and withthe 5 'bots tangling with pasta..maybe the alliances would have to go on a pressure pad to release some type of "pasta"...and the 'bots would get tangled in the "pasta"..and in the pasta there be a game piece but only one...and then u would have to pick it up with some kind of "shovel"...and bring it to a goal...these are just some thoughts....i just cant wait to see what the game will be...and not worry so much bout the clue...jan 7 wil be here in no time...good luck to everyone have fun trying to figure this out!!

~*~BaMBaM~*~

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Another outthere idea; but the talk of uneven teams brought to mind a gameshow called Blockbusters. It was 2v1 and the basic premise was answering trivia questions knowing the initials of the answer ie: JM= Joe Montana. The person who was alone had to answer 4 correct questions and the 'family pair' had to answer 5.

This basically explains the game:
http://www.gameshow-galaxy.net/block1.htm

Just a thought.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

The whole point of alliances is to make sure that weaker teams don't gang up on smaller teams like in the old 1v1v1 format. By introducing a third alliance you would end up with the same problem as before, especially if you made uneven alliances. The two weaker alliances would gang up to beat the stronger alliance, it is counter-productive.

I think one of the weaknesses of alliances is that once teams enter the finals they only have incentive to help other teams on their alliance. The soloution to this problem? Simple, make a game where teams on different alliances can work together. The could be what the '5 'bot' line is referring to, that alliances will stay 3v3, but two robots, from sperate alliances can work together to help their alliance (working together as 1). 2+2+1(two robots working together)=5...

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Another thing about three alliances is that once again, you make the game unfriendly for broadcasting. Aside from motor sports, every other sporting activity has two teams. To add a third team (alliance) in the mix is to "mess" with the minds of sports enthusiasts. They are not accustomed to thinking of a three-way game, and will look at it as an illegitimate sport.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

maybe it's just me, But I don't like the idea of having FIRST conform to television spectator's needs...It's a unique program, and in no way should it have to conform to the "rules" of standard sports. furthermore, common sports today weren't always popular, so why should this be any different?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

In all Reality I don't think it would matter much if it did have 3 alliances. As for broadcasting purposes,people would get used to it. But again the 2 weak teams against 1 strong team will happen. I believe, unfortunately so, that the game will be either one of two things; One: A 5 team free for all, Two: A 5v0 game, where all five teams are working torwards one objective.

*
I also agree with Nuttyman here. I don't think the spectators should have any influence on game design at all.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

A few ideas to bounce around:

The game objects are obsessed with seeing the green. Perhaps they have a camera (or there is a camera somewhere on the field), and the robots have to position an object somewhere to make the camera point in their direction. (i.e. points at the end if the camera faces your alliance's zone)

Five 'bots seems obvious, but I can't imagine that FIRST would eliminate alliances or have uneven teams. My guess: a 2v2 with another bot helping or hurting everyone. That bot could be a FIRST controlled, or it could be another team. Recall this year's Vex, in which there were 2 types of matches. Perhaps there will be 2 scoring sets in this game - one for being on an alliance and another for being the "middle" bot. This has more about the tournament structure in that game for those who are unfamiliar with it.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

this is assuming that we we are taking the hint at face value and saying there are 5 bots total, though. I don't think we can discount that there may be even teams, one way or another

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Granted there are alot of other ideas. I think this is the most likely Nuttyman. But i may be wrong ~Shoulders Shrugged~

In Actuality, Im much more concerned with the design problems (or challenges) That the baton shaped game pieces will present. My Team (We have 3 or 4 people on the team involved in everything from programming to design to fundraising, they are who I'm referring to.) feels that even if the game piece isn't a Baton, we want the extra two weeks of design on the off chance that it is. So we're trying to brainstorm a system that will be able to adjust to what ever scenario First comes up with :-p. It's not going to well as of yet.

*Within weight and cost limits anyway*

~Merry Christmas Everyone and Happy Holidays to All~

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I'm going with the pool noodle idea, but I think they definitely will not be a game piece. They are too lightweight.

Instead, I think they will be affixed to a base of some sort (toilet flange?) that will be attached with velco to the carpet playing filed surface. There will be many of these all over the field sticking up vertically. You can maneuver around them, or have the ground clearance to drive over them.

In the center of the field will be an elevated structure of surface HDPE or Lexan. Not all robots will be able to fit on this structure.

At the center of this structure will be an infrared beacon, and a goal of some sorts.

You will be able to score in and descore from this goal.

That is what I predict.

PS. Has anyone heard where from great Car Nack? We are nearly a month overdue for some wise words.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

That's an interesting Idea, Not something I would have thought of but it is very plausible. Ground clearance may be a problem though, All I've ever seen as far as ground clearance is 5 inches max. That introduces some more design challenges that would be interesting to mess around with.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

maybe we are looking at the idea of game piece the wrong way
maybe its new kit parts
i was doing this Google image search

I came across this
maybe there will be new a new kit motor. since snow blowers could be considered mechanical shovels.

With that in mind, we can now look to the last line and see that the camera is back. Because of the and used, it combines the idea with the previous idea. If you take my first idea as truth then the 2nd line would be referencing the kit of parts also. Since it refers to seeing green, it implies the camera.

Now you may think that because the and is used that it is referring to just one thing but think that since it is broken up over 2 lines its referring to 2 things.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Dave Lavery's latest Away msg:

"With a one-on-one-on-one-on-one-on-one game it would be really easy..."

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

so i guess the question is...are his hints reliable? Save for the offical game hint, i'd be skeptical about anything he says...
on the other hand, this is so vague (in typical Dave fashion) that it might just be true...DARN YOU DAVE!!!!

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Just a thing about the pool noodle ideas....

Remember in the '04 Game. The goals had pool-noodle-like-things that made the goals for the balls to be thrown or dropped into. Maybe the pasta is in reference to the goal. Maybe you have to get past the noodle like things to get to the goals (tangle it up).

Re: Official FIRST Hint declassification
 

Thinkin about 2v2 with a nuetral robot, or 2v3 with a defense/offense type gameplay coud be cool.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I think if there was a neutral robot that wasn't controlled by one of the FRC teams, spectators would start associating it with battle bots and such more because of there "house robots"

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

suppose that the "pasta" is supposed to be an obstacle in the way of our goal on the climb to the object at the top of th e hill. if the pasta are pvc tubes, which would roll down and around the hill/mounds on the field, you would have to try to push them up the hill, which could prove to be quite a challenging task ...

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Idea!

five 'bots tangling with pasta >>>> POOL NOODLES!! There flexible and you can buy nearly anywhere. >> http://www.poolcenter.com/pooltoys_n...water_logs.htm

a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show>> pool noodles piled up infront of you like the shovel show picture? > http://www.philadelphiawriters.com/a...ire_shovel.htm

and seeing Montana's green heights >> ????

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I just want to get an idea of how sure we are on stuff, so here's what i've come up with for the most likely aspects of the 2006 game. comments are welcome

1. Uneven Field: it seems the general consensus is that we won't be having a flat field this year

2. CMUcam: from other threads and the clue, it seems the CMUcam is back, by popular (or unpopular) demand

3. Odd-shaped scoring objects: looks like no 4-square balls this time. batons, footballs and pool noodles are the favorites

That's all that i'm relatively confident about...anyone else with me?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

historically, the (now) annual game clue has been been figured out within the first 4 pages of the discussion thread. I'll read through later to see what everyone is thinking.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I was sort of hoping the "Pasta", for lack of a better name. would be metal, it would make it much easier for manipulating the game peices. Provided we'll have to build something or put them in a goal a certain way.

***

Thats about all i have come up with, Though I wish people would read the entire thread, instead of posting things over and over again. (Not referring to you Nuttyman54). As far as the game pieces are concerned, I'm almost positive its going to a baton of some type. The main reason is that one of Dave's "Hints" Included a baton. Though I doubt we are going to have an incline hill though as far as the uneven field is concerned. Again the reason for my thinking, is the feasibility of it. Its a lot harder to have an inclined plane, than just a box on a floor. So most likely, it wont be a drastic height differentiation on the field.

I don't think there is anything we have missed.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

what about the idea of an additional alliance
other then that yes that seems to be the consensus

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

If 5, then maybe a pentagon shaped field..

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Pool noodels wouldnt be durable enough for long periods of play they have a tendancy to fall abart (i know from exprericance) and there for would have to be replaced which is just not econmical

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

What would be nice is if someone (moderator) could go through and consolidate all the similar posts so that someone new doesn't have 12 pages worth to read through, and invariably ends up repeating something (because they're not crazy enough to read the entire thing)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Not really, I've only found a couple of people who think there is going to be an additional alliance. I'm still banking on the 2v2 idea.

***

True I wasn't trying to be a gerk, but the pool noodle thing was brought up on the first page, they could atleaset read that. But its really not big deal i guess. :-p

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

there's been too much debate about whether or not there will be an additional alliance for me to consider it as "agreed upon"

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I think that if there is vision this year, it will be easier. Last year very few teams pulled it off. If the camera is to make a comeback, the target will be more obvious and easier to manipulate. I found that getting to the tetras last year was the easy part. I never managed to grab them once i got there.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Here is a goofy but fun game idea to go along with the 5 Bots theories...

2 v 2...two alliances...thats 4 bots.

The goal is robot number 5...fully functional with controls at each alliance station...

Autonomous mode is a race for the green button on top of the hill...

First alliance to hit it, gains control of the goal.

In other words you can drive the goal wherever you want for the whole match as a bonus for hitting your autonomous...giving your alliance a slight advantage.

...the plot thickens..mwahahaha

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

That sounds too true.

But I'm still thinking that there will be a house robot like Robot wars and Battlebots have, except not for fighting purposes.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I don’t know if this is at all possible, but maybe there are going to be 10 robots on 5 teams….. I think that the ifi controller can handle up to like 35……this would give more games to each competition…. Maybe mixed in with a ball bit on top of a raised platform..

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

well...that would certainly be itnteresting....i don't know how feasible, but interesting nonetheless

From a practice field standpoint there are less problems than with a "house bot"...being that for practice you just need said green button. but it does present the problem that an entire field should be buildable with just parts from Home Depot...which could be a problem

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

wooooooooooooooooooow...and i thought LAST year's field was crowded...i think this is improbable due to the field size requirement (venue problems)

props for thinking outside of the box tho

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Yea the ten robots on 5 teams would be sorta WAY TO BIG :-p. (and 5 *10 isn't 35 either :-p)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

5 'bots

link from NASA http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast29may_1.htm

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Okay,
I TOLD myself I wouldn't make ANY assumptions about the game this year based upon the clue, so I won't... yet.
BUT
Can anyone get anything at all out of this link posted by Arkobotics?? I mean... it is a "Shovel's show..."

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

A few thoughts, added as I've perused the threads.

A) There is a very real significance to that I can't figure out. You know they've puzzled over this hint for ages. There is no way that contraction (complete with apostraphe) is insignificant.
B) I liked the "Montana Green (power)" idea, but then I realized that the green in the hint was not capitalized like a pronoun would be. Again, this would not be overlooked. This says nothing about the Joe Montana connection, of course...I think we will see a connection in hindsight (footballs? god I hope so). Me? I'm going with a "butte" in the center of the mountain, with a CMU cam.
C) I don't think we will see straight PVC pipes. There is no "tangling" involved in uncooked noodles. And I HOPE we aren't going back to tethers.
D) I wasn't around for the last placebo game, but the hint of a sentient gamepiece and an odd number of robots seems to suggest such a device.

Or, it could tie back in to what was suggested during the other thread--that perhaps autonomous mode might come at a different time than usual. Could one robot be disabled? Nuttyman may be right--the Joe Montana connection could be moving the autonomous mode to the end.

Yes! Because what is the 4th quarter of two minutes? The final thirty seconds!

HANG ON!

Brilliant! This ties in perfectly. No, artdutra, we don't have to worry about digging into a hole, because we can already assume, based on Montana, that there will be a raised surface. If you place a hole in a raised surface, it isn't necessarily subterranean, globally speaking.

E) I'm liking the 1984=Montana's 1984 connection in terms of 2+2=5.
F) Skimoose--sharp catch on the shell (not equal to) spaghetti but still pasta note, and the football analogy. You can't get tangled in shells, but it could be a colloquial use of tangling, more like interacting with.


Ok, done.

Here's my idea:

A center goal raised and ramped. There is a hole in it's center--this is the destination for the footballs that are the game pieces (obsessed with the shovel's show? Possibly a reference to the ancient physics theories of Xenophanes (sp?), a Greek philosopher who believed that gravity was explained by a desire of inanimate objects to be with their like. Rocks fall because they want to be with the ground, which is more like rocks than air, etc.)

Bots can take a defensive stance of blocking the hole without actually entering it or ascending to the plateau (or Butte, or capital of Montana) that is the top of the (square? pentagonal? hexagonal?) large raised goal shape thingy.

The autonomous mode will come at the end of the match. Robots will use the CMU cam to drive towards the ramps of the central goal and rest upon the ramp (HDPE?) of the central goal at the end of the match for bonus points.

This keeps human players from having to throw balls up (e.g. unintentionally at refs/scoring table/audience) as they would to throw through a hoop. Footballs are complicated to corral and roll. Robots will be primarily gatherers (to funnel footballs to their human players) or defenders (which seek to prevent balls from entering the central storage area.)

One thing I can't figure out:

2x2? (2+2=5 1984 reference?)
2x2x2/3x3? (maybe one bot is randomly disabled every few seconds?)
1x1x1x1x1? (applying Darwinism to the robotics competition, where the weak band, in a laissaiz faire fashion, to overtake the strong?)

But other than that...I think my game fits the hint. A few concerns:

A) Hey, I'm probably totally wrong
B) Doesn't incorporate the baton idea hinted in the previous hints thread, unless maybe those are alternate scoring/defensive mechanisms.
C) I don't think the field will be pentagonal.

Can't wait to see what happens. But if they're football, I'm gonna be pissed...they have to wait until I leave to use the type of ball I'm most accurate with :mad: :D

--Petey

p.s. It's 10:20 PM. Santa hasn't come yet, but Dave Lavery and the GDC brought me a headache for Christmas!

Yes, that's a SA smiley. Hopefully I won't get the tranny image for bandwidth leaching SA sometimes gives. If it is...mods, it ain't me fault.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Who knows, There are lots of interpretations of the clue this year. But it's 10:17 Pm on christmas eve, and im going to bed. Goodnight all. And Merry Christmas

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

you knocked the nail squarely on the head: the hint is meant to start speculation and discussion, but is always too vague for someone to be entirely sure that they've gotten the game correct. of course, after the kickoff, everything will be painfully obvious :rolleyes:

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

well......heres what i think......

ive put together the first and last lines of the hint:

five 'bots tangling with pasta
and seeing Montana's green heights

Joe Montana-i would consider his greatest heights winning a Super Bowl or getting to one.......so.......i believe the game pieces are bowl shaped

four corners of a field, each with a bowl, and the fifth is a "Super Bowl" in the middle of the field, which is raised up, and probably colored green or something so you can get bonus points in autonomous mode

you have to fill the bowls with the "pasta", whatever that may be, probably little PVC pipes or something

i guess you could use a shovel to scoop up these little pieces, that would add in the third line

the question is........what will the human player be doing? maybe the robots push the little tubes into a bin (like the 2004 game) and the human player drops it into the bowls?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Sounds like an over sized VEX field.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

There are a lot of interesting ideas in this thread, but I am still sticking with my original "prophecy" (for a lack of a better word). ;)

I seem to have found more evidence to support my reasoning. In the post that started it all, Dave posts about the infamous Tammy Trimble and includes a picture of a baton. A month later, when pressed for a clue, Dave replies that "you already have it". Most people (including myself for a while) took the baton hint too literally. IMHO, I believe that this would be too obvious to be a genuine, bona fide clue. So let's look deeper into the baton-myth.

The cheerleader aspect, and hence baton, are not directly referring to a baton as being the actual game piece. However, lets look into where we might find a cheerleader with batons. The obvious answer, is at sporting games. And more precisely, at football games. The baton part was not referring to an actual game piece, but to where batons are used. The reason for this is most people (including myself) would automatically jump to believe the face value clue, and not dig deeper since they were convinced they had already found the real clue.

I can almost guarantee it, but the Montana in the game hint has multiple meanings - alluding to both the state and the football player. The wording in the game clue is chosen very carefully, so almost everything will have deeper meaning(s). Try to overlook the "face value" of the hint by thinking about how each word is used, where it is used, or what is the actual process it does, etc.

Then, as I posted before, IFI recently built a football toting Vex robot. Of everything in the world, why footballs? Where they doing preliminary, perhaps of mechanisms that could be used to pick up footballs? Somehow, I've always felt there was some hidden reason behind the football robot, even weeks ago before the clue was released. And somehow, every time I try to think deeper into each clue, everything keeps coming back to football.

Also, everyone should try to remember this:

In FIRST, every team is equal before the law. (i.e. the start of the match.)

Purposely being biased towards one alliance (i.e. uneven numbers on each side) is something that FIRST will probably never do. By having uneven alliances, you will form a major rift in the FIRST community. A small number of teams will continue to make elaborate and sophisticated robots, while the bulk majority will argue that since there is 2x2x1 or 1x1x1x1x1 alliances, all they'll need is a defensive armored-tank robot to gang up on the offensive robots.

All the defensive teams will gang up on the stronger robots/alliance, and FIRST will turn into destructive BattleBots. The quality of most robots will suffer, and the level of engineering that goes into them will plummet. This is a very thing, that potentially might lead to there actually being negative growth in the number of FIRST teams, since many teams might not want to put six weeks of hard work into an elaborate, well-thought-out machine only to have a defensive 'bot attempt to "destroy" it.

FIRST is about building engineered robots, not about building bully robots. Offensive robots look the problem in the eye, confront it, and beat it. Playing strictly defense skirts the problem, and just tries to bring everyone else down. And how does that famous quote by Dave go? "Engineers find solutions, while lawyers find loopholes. Which would you rather be known as?"

There have already been hints about Joe Montana's fourth quarter deficit comebacks. Can you say forth quarter multiplier? Like hanging on the bar in 2004, this will be a way for teams to dramatically increase their points by doing a near impossible goal in the last thirty seconds.

Petey has some really good ideas in his post, especially in the last half of his post. Remember, FIRST always looks to find multiple ways to score. There may be pit in the center of the top of the ramp, as well as a goal of some sorts over the pit. Scoring the footballs into the goal over the pit may be worth double the points as scoring in the pit under the goal.

Petey's idea about autonomous mode at the end of the match, where robots try to get onto the green ramp is a really good idea. And I really doubt that there will be 2x2 this year, or any year in the foreseeable. The way the hint is, it implies that five 'bots are trying to accomplish a difficult goal near the end of the match. In order to have five robots, you will need a 3x3 game. The five refers to the fact that only five of the robots will be able to score at the end of the match. One of the robots will "draw the short stick", and won't be able to score.

Finally, I'll end this post by going back to Dave's Tammy Trimble post. Did anyone else notice that Trimble is a major GPS navigation company? Will we see GPS navigation in autonomous this year? ;)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Maybe he threw out the baton hint that seemed too obvious to make you all think that it is too obvious so that couldn't possibly be it and you look way deeper than it was ever intended to be and we will actually be manipulating batons just like he said. (how was that for a run on sentence? :D )

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Sanddrag, Dave never "said" baton, just a picture. He said "majorette". What sporting events are big enough to have marching bands and majorettes? Football. :rolleyes:

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Art Dutra, I like this about you post:

The cheerleader connection. You're right--a baton is almost too obvious, and no one puts any weight to his "majorette" reply because the baton seems like a logical game piece.

I think this is one more piece of evidence in the "football" cart.

Only thing is:

I'm worried about goals with this model. The 2003 game used balls, it's true, but those balls were hefty and it was difficult to huck them very far. If you have people imitating Montana and throwing bullet passes to suspended goals, you're going to run a risk of balls flying everywhere. That's the one part that doesn't add up.

Autonomous GPS? I like it, but seriously--this can't be feasible. It would seem to make a CMU unnecessary, and (to the best of my knowledge) GPS kits aren't precise enough for what FIRST needs (e.g. a matter of inches.)

--Petey

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

The green is actually a type of code fault error that the controller sends out to alert the field. I have not seen a 2005 competition where I have NOT seen this on at least one robot on the field that was showing this fault.

And as we have seen in 2001 , green IS a FIRST color.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

aren't they trying the gps kits with the DARPA challenge and aren't the ending up sometimes miles off course?

i found it ironic that i went wondering through the Internet looking for clues and i came across this http://www.filefarmer.com/techshows/

a bunch of tech TV shows. look at the 5th one down, its news pod casts hosted by Kevin Rose and Alex Albrecht. Anyone remember them (tss, tech TV) they get their stuff from dugg.com and their show is called diggnation sense a digging theme. However thats where the relations to the clues end.


Maybe FIRST got us Cheerleaders for the holidays!

I'm signing of for now. Merry Christmas and though you still have a while to go... Happy Hanukah

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

GPS would not be to feasable at all because most recievers barely work indoors.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Yep. I think everyone worries too much about the clue. Odds are even if anyone is remotely close, it's not like someone is gonna confirm their speculation which will lead into alot more speculation. Even if you guess it right, you don't get a any special price besides saying "I guess it." Personally, I'd rather spend these two weeks with family for the holidays and relaxing (getting away from all the stress) before the hectic 6 weeks following kick off :P

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

i agree what is the point of worrying during ur break... i know im excited to know what the game is, but u won't know if u were right or not till kickoff and if u spend all this time trying to come up with a strategy that is wrong than u wasted ur time.... so just relax and enjoy your breaks... but still be anticipating kick off

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

artdutra, i bow down to you because you make sence (not saying these other people dont)
but it makes sence...jut flat out to me. i honesly thing that you are on to something.

and like a prior post mentioned..pasta comes in many shapes...not just long noodles...so "pasta" is versitle

also, i found this:
http://www.davefurlong.com/POETRY/song_of_panama.htm

a song of panama...where the first line says:
"Chuff! chuff! chuff!" An' a mountain-bluff

"Is moved to the shovel's song;

"Chuff! chuff! chuff!" Oh, the grade is rough,

A liftin' the landscape along!"

i thought it mighty interesting. i hold true to the "mound" in the middle idea..
but i am brain dead just from READING all these posts!

lets see how close (or far) our guesses were on the 7th!

Merry christmas to you all, and happy new years too! :D

* I AM A LEGO HEAD :] *

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Could the game involve having to lift a part of the field that is painted green autonomously to some height?

My two cents...it's late..and too much eggnog.

Merry Christmas

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

GPS is way too inaccurate--using commercial GPS (ie: a 3 satellite fix, the max allowed by the government), you would have a margin of error larger than the field itself.

Even with military GPS (5+ satellites), you'd still only be able to tell your position to about a meter or so.

Not to mention GPS is extremely cost prohibitive.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

true that residential gps is +/- 10 feet but differential gps is good down to a few inches... the only problem is GPS doesn't work inside, it is hard to get line of sight with satellites when there is a roof in the way. :-P

as for my opinion i like the idea of a robotic field element and small game elements piled up (golf balls) anyway we will find out soon enough.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

After thinking heavily about the clue, and reading through all 14 pages, I've come up with this:
http://liberdictus.com/2006-sky-high.jpg

What do you all think?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Interesting, but it looks far too simple.

Teams have all but mastered the art of picking up large exercise balls and depositing them in various containers.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Not true. In my mom's car, we've still gotten a GPS signal in a below ground parking garage.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

yes, but they'd have to somehow ensure that the GPS signal will a) not get lost during a match and b) will work the same in all venues.. a hard challenge indeed.