Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I can't wait... After reading that thread for the past way-too-many hours, without catching up AT ALL until the past hour. Everyone was posting so fast, I was always five pages behind... :ahh: But here I am finally. Yay.

So my ideas...

The first thing I thought was, "Well we know we WON'T have five robots on the field because that would be obvious."
But here is another idea, an interesting version of 2v2v1 (Credit to my dad):
There are two alliances of two robots/teams on the field, competing against each other. There is also one neutral robot. The neutral robot can decide to either help one of the two other alliances or do some neutral-robot-only task. (Strategy would be important to decide this.) This robot can't win or lose, just help out.
^ I liked the idea until I realized this would be hard to do during final rounds.

So... depending on how well you are shovelling (your show) the game piece will be easier to get later, (after you're done shovelling?). Hmmm, I don't know what you're shovelling though.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Maybe it's my southern dialect, but I only count 7 syllables in the first line.
five 'bots tangling with pasta
1 1 2 1 2
Can someone help me out here?

So if we assume that adding "Ro" to the "'bots" in first line would make the haiku correct, and the shovel actually points to "RO" and not "ORO", the we have a game piece obsessed with completing the haiku! Er... what's that mean?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Okay, this is somewhat off the topic of the official hint, but remember the baton hint Dave gave us a few months ago? Well, Tammy Trimble was included in the hint, but I don't remember anyone figuring out who she was. Now, heres a post by Dave in the summer of 2004, referencing Tammy Trimble, but still no real explanation as to who she is. Any ideas?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...69&postcount=5

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Tammy works for FIRST.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

[quote=Zach Purser]Maybe it's my southern dialect, but I only count 7 syllables in the first line.
five 'bots tangling with pasta
1 1 2 1 2
Can someone help me out here?
QUOTE]


I think the question is on tangling.

Tang - Ling => 2
Tan - gle - ing => 3
I don't know which is correct - so I looked it up in the dictionary. I couldn't figure out the pronunceation guide. So I looked it up in a different dictionary, used the pronunciation key in the front... and I THINK it's 3. Looked it up in a third... and I think it said 2. I have no idea.

I'm like a lawyer reading a CNC program. Lost.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

[quote=Not2B]Even with my Southern drawl (ha), it's tan-guhl-ing. Three syllables. (Tangle is two, the -ing suffix adds the third.)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

^ No, no, your right. If you say Tangle, then add the -ing, it works out to three. I'm not a great english person, but I don't think Tang- , -Gling, is the correct pronunciation.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

EDIT: Mr. Lavery pointed out that Godot is capitalized, my mistake.

Waiting for Godot is a crazy artsy play about people waiting for a guy that never comes, or as wikipedia so aptly says:

Make of that what you will :D

Re: Official FIRST Hint declassification
 

Montana also means mountain in Spanish

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

[quote=Billfred]
tan·gle -
v. tan·gled, tan·gling, tan·gles
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tangling

Two syllables.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Refererence: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=41024

Many interesting points have been brought up about this picture. In the second ripple down I see what appears to be 4 colored orbs encased in a piece of flatbar. I think that these may be lights added to the place where the operators and coach stand. This would place the robot right in front of the diamond plate wall. This places my loading zone directly in front of the directly in front of the diamond plate. This makes me thing that we may be seeing not a loading zone, but maybe an unloading zone like in 2004.

T-minus 261 hours til revelation.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

i think those are the eyes of the robot...remember how Dave makes all the robots cartoonish, and uses the same ones in every animation? I think that's the little guy that always gets picked on...

however, i DO like your idea of an unloading zone

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

So there is a lot of talk about Montana, and about a shovel's show. What if the shovel's show is the show a shovel would watch? Look at the Montana flag again:


Hmm, something with Gold on it being worth Über points? Where have I seen that before?


There are so-called "Local Positioning Systems" that are designed to work indoors. They basically use GPS technology, but with local transmitters instead of satellites. They are used in everything from automated warehouses to theme park rides (Pooh's Hunny Hunt in Tokyo Disneyland uses such a system to guide multiple vehicles around small rooms without colliding, so it is certainly accurate enough).

However, I doubt that FIRST will use such a GPS based system due to the cost of each team needing one to practice with. Of course, there are cheaper ways of helping robots find their position on the field...

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

there is another pasta not yet mentioned. elbow macaroni.
the 3-inch pvc elbows are readily available at home depot. painted red, blue, yellow, green, and white, we could have a tangle of robots attempting to retrieve the proper color from the holding bin.
setup is easy for the field crew, since they can quickly fill the holding bin with the 50 or so pvc elbows.

jerry w

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

This just struck me, in reading the thread and thinking about football...players tangle in football all the time - whenever a pass is thrown or the ball is fumbled...maybe the tangle is a pile of balls?
=============================

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I haven't had a chance to read all the posts.(I am visiting relatives and have only 5 minutes left of my hour of leased Internet) But five bots bothers me. So Here are two devious possibilities.

1. There is a "house" or official bot, that has to be overcome - to be overcome it must be neutral, or able to be utilized fairly by the other robots in some manner. I like this better than:

2. Five robots are on the field, but the alliances are formed after play begins either as a strategy or by some random event. (I would think this is too devious even for Dave Lavery to come up with, but I've learned never to underestimate Dave's ability to be devious in game design!)

About the green - you can bet that the CU-cam will be back, and the best programmers will have the best chance of doing well. About Montana, Climbing or putting something high (scooping up lots of objects, and them placing them in raised goals either by climbing a ramp or some sort of transport mechanism will be there.

And as always, there will be something the rookies will be able to do, if they have a platform that can move.

Finally, remember folks, the trick to winning is to score more points than the other team.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Finally read the hint. Brain is stewing. Wonder what it is...? Foam peanuts? Pool noodles? A hill control game? House Bots? So many possible meanings.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

you might want to look at these to find the meaning of 'bots,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...=%27bots&go=Go
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bot

also,
there might be 5 teams of 2 with each bot on two teams, (it's a stretch, I know)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/shelfish/razorclm/razor6.htm

This brings the "shovel" back to a donut shape like a hula hoop - as discussed in the earlier thread. OR It could be the inside of a pool noodle.

Just some ideas for the objects of the game.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Im telling myself, dont go back to the thread...
but it's just too ...difficult not to

Maybe the game will have to do something with a foot ball type game? who knows.. ekk i need to stop.

I find it fairly funny, that 7 of the 10 most recent spotlight adds....come from this thread, one from the "2007 game hint?" one

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

During the 2004 season, I was having an "After Hours" conversation with someone who was somewhat involved with the game design. This guy mentioned that he had wanted an auto mode where teams selected their alliance partners or tasks based on their action (or inaction) in auto mode. He also liked the idea of a divided field where you pick what side you play on during auto mode.

Imagine not knowing who your partners were until auto! Crazy... I would not be surprised if you had to use visual autonomous control to find something (maybe green?) that would dictate either who your partners were or what your task was.

Maybe all the football references are correct, and you choose if you play offense or defense in auto mode. I envision a game like the one from American Gladiators where contestants tried to put soccer balls in little goals that were defended by the hosts. You pick if you play O or D during the auto mode. Who knows how you do rankings based on the results of matches, I am sure there are many ways.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I noticed that Paul Copioli continued with the Joe Montana/Notre Dame reference, and mentioned that ND's colors are green and gold (also happen to be the team colors of one of my favorite FIRST teams) Coincidence that Paul would hide a reference to JVN's old team? Hmm. Conspiracy if you ask me.

See you folks at Kickoff.

Rob

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Or ORO could turn into Oreo. What pasta lools like an Oreo? Wagon wheels! And a wagon wheel would want to see Montana's green heights. So the game pieces will be wheels!

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

There will be one robot controlling other robots from two different alliancees of two robots; and there will be "Oreo" game scoring objects which move up and down.

How's that for a rational idea?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I don't like the idea of teams getting to choose their alliances for the Qualifying Matches, Mainly for the same reasons of a free for all match you will either get several "strong" teams ganging up against the "weaker" teams, or several "weaker" teams ganging up against a "strong". Neither of which goes along with the ideals of FIRST. At least the way the system has been set up for the past several years all teams are on a level playing field when it come to alliances, during the Qualifying Matches anyway.

Just my opinion.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Joining kinda late.
I really don't think that the game will have to do with shoveling sand or snow. The FIRST people are not idiots and want an easy cleanup and reset.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

The entire "should a sport cater to the audience" argument is fairly irrelevant. They do. This said, whether we wish it to be or not, we have to think under this restriction.

The hint describes a game...not the game describing the riddle...so first I go at this from this direction...first set the parameters of the game.

FIRST Fields flatly have to be all the things required in the post linked to above...most of that can be condensed into cheap and safe. It also has to be fast moving and simple enough for a TV audience so that requires that the refs can read it fast and the field hands can set it up fast. We also have to assume it is the shape and size of a basketball court because the arenas have been rented already.

Foam noodles are very light and breakable but they are cheap to replace. They are also very safe. It would take quite a bit of talent to hurt yourself with one.

On the other hand footballs are also light, bit more durable and rather safe too...and America loves footballs. This might be FIRST's attempt to tap into another audience. However...how much does a single football cost? I honestly don't know what footballs cost but if they are more expensive than say...a plastic bin or the materials for a tetra there might not be many of them on the field.

There is the possibility that both noodles and footballs are used and the footballs are thrown by human players.

I don't think FIRST will ever have a house robot. I may have to eat my words there but seriously it is a good deal more work than normal to reset, expensive, requires maintenance, and is a safety hazard if it gets beat up too badly and is not fixed. FIRST is often short volunteers to do everything already; where are they going to get a full pit crew to take care of a robot that runs every single match? You would probably need at least two of them unless you want to wait between every single match for the motors to cool. That isn't even counting the cost of teams making a mock house robot.

A lot of people are talking about going up a ramp to either a hole or a platform. I'd say platform here because if a robot gets stuck in a hole and another robot drives over it it poses a very grave danger...especially to an electrical board.

That field might be valid but if that is all the game is it would probably descend very quickly into a competition of plowbots. I'm sure FIRST has considered this too...so perhaps there is another scoring area? Maybe one up high?

I think the thing about the camera is that yes it is a hard task if you start from scratch but really the difficulty for a rookie team to complete that task is the amount of work between where the FIRST default code puts you and the end product. If the camera had more background code it might be quite reasonable. No matter what however I'd be willing to bet its back.

The game could very well be five vs five if the size of the robots was decreased. This would allow people to play more rounds, and more robots to go to championships. It would change up strategy considerably and would be a disadvantage only veterans would feel. Rookies are not locked in a 3x3x5 mindset so they don't feel a change but it would require some major changes for those teams who love reusing their old designs.

This may be wishful thinking but I think the days of the multipliers are over. People (viewers especially) need to be able to add the scores in real time.

Also...my friend said that once upon a time there was a cartoon character named Montana Max. Anybody know if this has any relation at all?

Also...in case this helps anybody

Major mountain ranges of Montana are: Little Rockey Mountains, Bear's Paw Mts, Sweetgrass Hills, Lewis Range, Rocky Range, Whitefish Range, Salish Mts, Purcel Mts, Cabinet Mts, Coeur D'Alene Mts, Mission Mts, Swan Range, Garnet Range, Big Belt Mts, Little Belt Mts, Highwood Mts, Castle Mts, Snowy Mts, Judith Mts, Big Sheep Mts, Bridger Range, Castle Mts, Tobacco Root Mts, Highland Mts, Anaconda Range, Beaverhead Mts, Tendoy Mts, Blacktail Mts, Snowcrest Mts, Graverly Range, Madison Range, Gallaton Range, Absaroka Range, Beartooth Mts, Pryor Mts, Big Horn Mts, and Wolf Mts

"Bridger" mountains sound promising but other than that nothing pops out at me.

Also to throw one last thought out there...green could have a double meaning and also be "money" aka points.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I don't think anyone seriously expects that we will be shoveling sand, or snow, or anything messy like that. Even resetting a field with something the size of golf balls or tennis balls would be difficult. I think the most feasible game pieces mentioned so far, in no particular order, are:

1)Footballs - the clue has several hints that could be taken as football references, the strongest of which is the Joe Montana reference. There is also a general expectation (although I'm not sure where it comes from) that FIRST will return to balls this year. The danger is this expectation could lead people to find ball references where they are not intended.

2)Pool noodles - which would be a clear reference to pasta, although their durability is questionable making it a somewhat less likey choice.

3)PVC pipe - similar in shape to pool noodles but more durable

4)PVC elbows - I find this one intriguing. The elbows are of course the reference to pasta and the durability of these would be higher than pool noodles.

All of these options could be reset on the field in a reasonable amount of time and could be easily cleaned up at the end of the day. Additionally, they are all reasonably priced so that the teams can set up practice fields with as many game pieces as needed.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Okay, I'm probably the last person in this thread to take Dave's animation picture, blow it up with IrfanView, and examine it in detail.

The object does look as if it is a banana; I cannot imagine anything else being skewed enough to end up with that shape. With that in mind, there are three possible conclusions:

1) As already mentioned, there will be a difficulty posed by slippery conditions this year (slippery field or slippery game objects), or
2) Since the robot appears to be carrying the banana, the game objects this year are banana or sickle shaped, or
3) Dave is indicating the special musical guest during the kickoff broadcast will be Tally Hall

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

What if Montana's green hights are green, football shaped goals that are set up in different positions before the match, like the vision tetras.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Im sorry if im a little slow but can someone link Dave's animation i want to take a look at it.
Thank you in advance.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

all we have right now is a picture of what would APPEAR to be Dave's animation...here

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Thank you alot. Now time to spend countless minutes staring at it.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

The Shovel Show was an art exhibit at the Highwire Gallery. Maybe some sort of highwire traversing going on either by bots or game pieces?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

i like this idea, i know this is a stretch but what are the chances of the traditional center piece of the field (or maybe moving) was a FIRST robot (the fifth bot) and scoring was to be done by placing or removing something from it. This might also explain the banana in Dave's picture and the "freshly picked for me" (or something like that) line in the Terry Hall song that Bill Moore gave the link to, maybe a banana shaped or noodle shaped has to be picked from it. the Green heights line would infer that this could be done in autonomous for extra points. this idea would also make sense of the Tangling with pasta line being how tangling sounds a lot like dangling and the tangle aspect might mean that the house bot is trying to protect the objects. bobl also mentioned that shovel's show appeared at the highwire gallery which also supports this hypothesis of mine.


idea #2
maybe 5 bots tangling with pasta means a flag football or tag type game, which would explain the possible Joe Montana reference.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

FIRST had house bots long before Robot Wars did. IIRC, the 1993-1998 games used a placebo bot during the finals.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Looking at the "Big Boss" size pool toys, I'm having second thoughts about discounting the pool toys as possible game objects. That big foam tube wouldn't be that easy to break, and with the price(about two bucks apiece, so for FIRST, maybe like $1. I'd imagine they get at least bulk discounts.) You could afford to chuck one or two every match.Thats like 250 bucks, in a worst case scenario, per regional. Not too bad, considering how many tetras kicked the bucket during play. And they were much more expensive per piece. Now, the problem comes in two parts:

1. Thats alot of stuff to fit into Mike Wade's trailer. It's big...But so are like 500 pool noodles!

2. What happens when the toys get chipped up? The things can probably get beat around awhile before they are completely destroyed, but in the meantime, they'd get chipped up and become less handleable. A tetra was eother broken, or not. Simple as that. A ball was either useable, or not. A bin was either broken, or not. Pool toys are a bit more destructible.

So, I still have my money on footballs, but there might be new light shed on the pool toys.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Wasn't one of the 49ers colors gold and the shovel is pointing to the word that means gold. And Joe Montana played football for the 49ers. hmmm..... :rolleyes:

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

My apologies. Would somebody be so kind as to pass me the ketchup? :p

I read through FIRSTwiki but there is very little information about those robots. They don't appear to be designed to affect gameplay much...did they? If so how were the bots kept neutral...I am sure at some point it sat in a spot where somebody would have liked to be. How were they maintained? In short does anybody have any further information on previous house robots?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Here are two pictures of the vacuum placebo robot from 1997. If you want more information about placebo robots, please see this thread, where Andy Grady recently enlightened us about the history of placebo robots in FIRST. :D



I don't know if anyone else noticed it, but in the Montana state flag, there are three plateaus, with the highest at the left, and the lowest at the water. Does this mean anything about the game? Will we see the return of stairs?



Also, despite pool noodles being cheap, they will probably never be used. If you thought seeing PVC tetras fall apart was bad, the utter cataclysmic anhiliation of pool noodles would totally dwarf it.

Although it may not seem like it, to build a full-size tetra for the 2005 game cost anywhere from $10-15 each. While redeeming gift cards at D.ick's Sporting Goods today, I noted the cost of the generic footballs at $11.99. So the price of a football would not be that bad. Footballs would also be almost indestructible. It would be very hard to try to pop one, although not impossible.

Another thing that we need to consider when thinking about playing field objects is the "cool" factor. The GDC would not pick something that an audience would not deem to be "cool". Footballs would definitely satisfy. So would balls, including soccer balls, kickballs, and large balls, etc. Tetras could be considered cool looking.

Also, I like the "green" as refering to money (aka points). This can mean that something high[er] could be worth more points? Is this like the 2005 game, where the highest tetra owns the stack? Or does this mean that something up higher than the rest of the field will be worth more points (like a high goal, or a hanging bar)?

If only all this food for thought happening in this thread could somehow be funneled into solving world hunger... :rolleyes:

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I just understood the banana reference.

The shovel show was at the highwire gallery. There will be a wire stretching across the field.

There will be some sort of object (football or pool noodle) hanging from the wire, which the robots will have to pick.

Terry in Terry Hall is similar to Tammy in Tammy Tremble (which is where the baton reference has come from), the song by terry hall mentions bananas and the line "freshly picked for me," this was pointed out above by nycpunk. This reinforces the idea that scoring objects will be hanging from a wire strung across the field.

Now, Lavery's frame from the animation...there's obviously water. In my opinion there are two possible interpretations of this: 1) there will be a trough filled with water under the wire that the scoring objects are hung from, or 2) there will be some sort of object to make getting directly under the wire impossible (or just really hard). This object may be green and could be a raised platform with no sides and a slippery surface. My guess is that each side of the field only has one access ramp at the edge of the field which is colored green for the camera during autonomous.

Now where to go from here...I'd hate to press my luck in sucessfully predicting the game. There will be a goal above the wire which will be the maximum scoring goal, however goals will only count if the objects hanging from the wire are used to score - and yes, half the objects will be colored for each alliance. There will be a goal for each alliance on the opposite alliance's side that accepts footballs. The alliances will start out with the maximum number of footballs, just like they did with tetras, and the robots will be loaded by human players or by autoloaders, just like last year.

I think i'm starting to stretch it, but I still think that there will be scoring objects hung from a wire stretching across the width of the field.

edit: There is a strong possibility that there will be 1 green scoring object directly under the high goal which can only be scored during autonomous.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

remember Lavery titled this as the 2007 hint, there is no way that they can implement water for this years game (look at multiple prior posts and threads). How do we even know if this picture even relates to this years game. Right now the only thing that I am confident about is the game piece being footballs. There is still a lot to find out about this game, don't look too much into Lavery's 2007 picture.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Or his comments about various elements in future games (stationary robots and parachutes come to mind). I mean, this is Dave we're dealing with. The 2007 picture should be let lie until after Championship 2006. I do not want to have to say this again, but there will be no water game in the forseeable future! And the banana "clue" did just what bananas do: it went bad. The forseeable future extends through approximately 2008, probably later. Now, back to the matter at hand...the 2006 hint.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Is it sad that I completely forgot about autonomous? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't leave it out this year though, so I'll go with your definition.

So five prime (5+1=six) robots autonomously going though a bunch of footballs all over the field? Perhaps that's also where the shovelling comes in, though I'll still go with my passing theory.

For the record, I still have my circular hill with possible field goal. But one thing I find interesting is that we don't know how much of the game this may or may not be telling us. For all we know, this clue is just about the game piece and number of robots. Or it tells us the entire game. Or, they're just messing with our heads and the "clue" has absolutely nothing to do with the game... I guess time will tell.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I woud agree that we shouldn't look too much into the 2007 "hint", I belive that dave's picture is just trying to fool and confuze us (even more :ahh: ) before kickoff, thereby creating the havoc and chaos he loves to see these few weeks we have left :D

On the pool noodles -- I like the idea of them being implemented in the game, it could be possible that FIRST could do something to make them more sturdy, they could possibly wrap them in duct tape. They would be practically indestructable

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

FIRST wrapping pool noodles in Duct Tape would be a sight to see...and hey, it fits the Silver part of Oro Y Plata....

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Those noodles will be torn apart a lot fast than two a match. If someone can tear them with their hands. It's pretty obvious that a robot will tear them to shreds. I'm not convinced about the pool noodles.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Maybe just some sort of large rubber hose? Those are very durable, and can be quite heavy.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

That's a really good point. Garden hose would be really durable, and if in small lengths, wouldn't make a tangled mess that is hard to take apart between matches.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

now why did it take 24 pages for someone to think of that?? it's so obvious it's painful. way to go sanddrag

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Here's something I was just thinking about and haven't seen posted yet the 2006 game will be the 15th FRC game... What does this have to do with the clue most likely nothing but the clue was structured into three lines and the number 5 is in the clue 3 x 5 = 15

Also Montana became a state in 1889 100 years later FIRST was founded... :ahh: Its also the 41st state 4 + 1 = 5... there's that 5 again.

These are just some interesting facts I found on Montana's Official State Website .

You can pretty much connect anything to anything if you look hard enough.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I don't think garden hose would be be easy to manipulate, and it would be a strange game piece. (not that strange is bad)
Are the bigger/wider hoses easily/cheaply available? Fire hoses are bigger but they dont hold the traditional round+hollow macaroni or hose shape unless they are filled with water.
I still like the idea of PVC elbows or footballs.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

yeah well that's part of the challenge...we've gotten too good w/ balls

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

So, you're saying the closer someone gets to figuring the game out this year, the more red herrings Dave is going to loose upon us? That would indicate that the answer is already posted. Has anyone been following the timeline of posts vs. Dave's extraneous clues?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I'm going to put the whole "we don't know that Dave is doing that" idea aside and just look at the problems with collecting meaningful data on the trend.

I think we have to take into account that Dave (as far as I know) is not a program which downloads all entries to chiefdelphi and responds within a few seconds. If he logs in and out then time becomes divided up into a series of discreet blocks between logins. The pictures are also probably not made instantaneously and it is fairly likely he could put an idea aside and come back to it later (even making other posts in the meanwhile). Now consider that this entire thread is roughly five days old. The only way we could have enough points of reference would be if he was logged in/was posting very frequently. If he posts too frequently then he (presumably being human) begins multi-tasking and this wrecks the idea of a simple direct correlation because when you multi-task you are doing several things at once but at the same time prioritizing the amounts of effort you put into each. This reorders the tasks from their natural chronological order. If Dave has any sort of holiday celebrations this would put more constraints on his time and encourage more multi-tasking. I think if we were tracking this over a period of weeks or months we might be able to collect valid data but I don't think we can do it on such a short time span.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I totally forgot about that lil guy. He was a mean kid in the Tiny Toon Adventures cartoons.

Picture of Montana Max http://www.thegremlin.com/WARNER.BROS/15794wb.JPG

If "Montana's heights" were referring to him, it definitely wasn't to his height. He was pretty short compared to the other characters. If anything, "Montana's green heights" would apply to the fact that he had a lot of green, or money.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

i must admit you guys are very creative

i think you might be going a bit too far and are now making easier for the gdc for future years to come up with other ideas, they'll take ones we've already come up with

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Double post, but this is my big one.

OK, so:

five ‘bots tangling with pasta
a game piece obsessed with a shovel’s show
and seeing Montana’s green heights

five
+five sided star shaped field - http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...3&postcount=14
+five different colored objects on the field.. Dare I say, Blue, Red, Yellow, Green, Orange?

five bots
+ 2001 format
+5vs0
+1vs1vs1vs1vs1


Tangling
+ Tether Rule (2002)
+Bewilderment
+Springs (rotini pasta)


pasta
+pool noodles (obvious assumption)
+rotini - Springs for game objects - NASA's rotini findings
+Type of Pasta = Dumpling = Lord Dumpling =Dean Kamen or N. Dumpling Island http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...North+Dumpling
+Island

A game piece
+2001 (balls)

shovel’s
+Convey or rush together - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shovel
+2001 rehash?

shovel’s show
+Mike Mulligan - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0395169615/002-8663684-3499204?v=glance&n=283155
+Mulligan = Do-Over (Golf)
+2001
-Game Format – Co-Opertition
-Game Obstacle = Ramp

seeing
+CMU Cam or Other New Vision Sensor
What about something from Vision Components, Hudson, N.H. (www.vision-components.com),
or http://www.junun.org/MarkIII/Info.jsp?item=48# That?

Montana’s
+ Joe Montana
-Leader In Passing
-Co-Operating (2001)
+Spanish = Mountain
-Plateau
+Montana’s State Seal
-Gold & Silver
-Woodie Flowers’ Bling Bling for the Brain
-Shovel pointing to ORA = Gold

green
-CMU Cam’s Main Color (2005)
-green - naive and easily deceived or tricked

heights
+Plateau (Multi-Level)
-King Of The Hill
-2004 (redo)
-2003 (redo)
-2001 (redo)




five ‘bots tangling with pasta
The concept of multiple robots co-operating has been a concept since 2001, but has left Lord Dumpling(Dean) bewildered why it hasn’t been accepted in FIRST.
(2001 was very unpopular due to the tournament structure of working together 4vs0)
Or
Five robots on the field getting caught up in an Island center obstacle.
Or
Five robots on the field getting caught up with pool noodles.
Or
Five robots on the field getting caught up with spring shaped objects.

a game piece obsessed with a shovel’s show
2001’s game piece (balls) obsessed with making a comeback. (Mulligan=redo)
Or
Golf balls marking the return of balls as a game object, with the object being to scoop them up.

and seeing Montana’s green heights
A multi level field, and or, shelving system to put objects in.


Go ahead folks, have fun expanding on those ideas.

I know I will in the future. I'm just done analyzing the clue for now.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

"five 'bots tangling with pasta"
I think of pasta as meatballs and spaghetti. I think a great game would involve the human players having balls (like 2000)
and the spaghetti being a new game object similar to a pool noodle. The pool noodles would be randomly placed around the field.

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show"
I think this refers to the balls that the human player will have. A shovel's show is that you can throw objects with it.
The human player will be throwing the balls at a scoring goal.

"and seeing Montana's green heights"
I liked how it was suggested that Joe Montana played for Notre Dame. Take a look at this picture of Notre Dame Cathedral. I think the main scoring goal will look similar to Notre Dame Cathedral. I wouldn't be suprised if we saw a hanging bar this year.

This game sounds very similar to 2000, just add pool noodles.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Interesting thought. The pool noodles are not used for scoring, but are impediments to picking up balls, or for some robots moving about the field.

If that's so, then it really doesn't matter how much the noodles get destroyed at a regional, because they would get recycled (hopefully) after it is over. You'd have a constant consumable cost for each regional. Probably replacing the noodles periodically during quals and moreso during playoffs.

If the game is designed properly, these obstacles could put the kibosh on high speed ramming. Thereby, eliminating one of the rants people have about the referee's "judgement calls" concerning intent.

(I know, I know, build a better game, and the world isn't going to beat a path to your door, someone will just build a better "bash bot".)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Dare I suggest that a game like this would be incentive for most teams to stick with the KOP transmissions? I mean, if what good is your fifteen-speed transmission if you can't move past the obstacles on the field?

Or suppose that instead of pool noodles, you had something else that's flexible, such as half-inch PVC pipe. Wicked strong, flexible, and hard to make a skirt for, especially if there are Triple Play-esque loading zones on the field that force teams not to use carpet-scraping skirts.

And suppose further that Montana's green heights refers to the ground. The green heights that Joe Montana worked on weren't that high, so perhaps we've got some low goal that we have to convey things under?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I don't think FIRST would implement golf balls as as the main scoring object. They are too small for a 3'x3'x5' FIRST robot. (Although it would be a good one for a Vex game.) If golf balls were the main scoring object, and a robot scooped up several hundred, and then somehow spilled them all out, it would be horrible for field reset to try to round up every last golf ball. (Click on the link to see what I mean. ;))

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

It was just a random thought. If anything, I'm leaning towards the mulligan (golf term for redo) part of the equation, rather than a golf ball itself.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Okay, so let's play word association ...

"five 'bots tangling with pasta"
- I also thought Pool Noodle

"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show"
- shovel = spade?
- Sam Spade (portrayed by Humphrey Bogart) in "The Maltese Falcon"?

"and seeing Montana's green heights"
- Montana state tree = Ponderosa Pine?
- a tall, thin structure?


As far as digging below field level ...
What if the field included a ramp (Stack Attack), and the upper level involved digging down? Or perhaps you have to climb a ramp, traverse a pit full of noodles, to get to another place?


Keep thinking!

_______________________________________
Team 811: It's Not Just A Robot Thing!

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

How about six foot lengths of 2 inch PVC pipe?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I love this idea! Couple it with my idea that the field will look like the Notre Dame Cathedral. Teams score balls in a tall structure like 2000. Except loose the ramp and hanging bar and add a ramp structure filled with pool noodles.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

i am still leaning towards footbals. they are the only shape that hasnt been used yet that i know of.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Just a quick thought that I haven't seen here yet.

"Tangling" is another word for "fighting with". Is FIRST simply saying that we'll have a difficult time with this year's game pieces (again)?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

There are plenty of shapes that haven't been used as of current.

Exhibit A: Jacks
Exhibit B: Spirals
Exhibit C: Hearts
Exhibit D: Stars
Exhibit E: Cones

You get the point.

I personally want to see either Jacks, Spirals, or Cones used in a future game(s) to spice things up and lead away from the normal in the box thinking of using the shapes from the FIRST logo.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

You forgot moons, clovers, horseshoes, pots of gold, rainbows and red balloons!
http://www.generalmills.com/corporat....aspx?catID=69

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Yeah, I know.. I didn't want to go too crazy though.. ya know? :rolleyes:

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

If you take one of the pool noodles with the hole, insert a 1/2 in PVC pipe and wrap the whole deal in Duct tape you have a bauffer()
these are used as weapons in youth combat() in the SCA they are nearly ind3estructible and cheap to make, they are still somewhat flexible but stiff like dried spaghetti and the hint seems to me as though it is strongly hinting about pool noodles.

also the hint states:
"a game piece obsessed with a shovel's show
and seeing Montana's green heights"

it makes it sound as though the piece is obsessed with the shovels show and montana's green heights this could mean the the 5 bots will be the game peices, perhaps small and green seeking, or you have to retreive something that is up high and green and depsosit it in the little 'bot.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

hmmmmmm . . . horseshoes.
readily available and nearly indestructable.
too bad there is nothing about them in the hint.
or is there?

edit: do they ride horses a lot in the mountains of Montana?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I would lean away from real metal horseshoes, and more toward scaled up horseshoes. Redneck Style!

http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/redneck_horseshoes.htm

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Double post again <sorry> ,but this one is way too hard to pass up.

Here's one for all you conspiracy theorists:
Lavery mentioned Tammy Trimble - A Google search on Trimble finds:
http://www.trimble.com/

Still think indoor GPS is out of the question? :ahh:

w0w. If that isn't supposed to be a link, then I don't know what the odds are for the coincidence.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

For Inspiration of Redneck Science and Technology?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Remember the hint's first line: "five 'bots tangling with pasta"

Pasta could mean almost any shape (or even shape changing--try wetting pasta with water and see what happens). Lasagna noodles anyone? (flat with wrinkled edges)

By the way, why wasn't anything except "Montana" capitalized in the hint? Any ideas?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I like the idea of footballs as the game pieces:
They are:
A. small enough that they can be herded by the robots
B. large enough to make for easy field cleanup/reset
C. very durable
D. fairly cheap (name brand ones look to be about $15 off brand one could be less than $10
E. an odd shape FIRST hasn't used before

I'm seeing a game like this:
Two alliances red&blue each has 2 or so goals Theres X red footballs and X blue footballs in some kind of hopper loading system and the robots either have to heard them to the human player or the human player to the robots. As for the scoring, You get 5 points per football of your alliances color in your goal and 3 for each football of your opponents color in your goal. (5 x 3 = 15 *)
theres also several lets say 5 green footballs that up off the ground and during auto mode the robots had to find these green footballs and score them in the goals, they'd be worth maybe 15 points(*)

I know kind of sounds like 2004 but it would really depend on what the field looked like.

(*2006 game is FRC's 15th, the clue is structured into 3 lines and contains the number 5)

I remember reading something about Montana's grassy plains and the flag has a grassy plateau on it maybe the platform (if there is one) has a surface that is green, artificial grass maybe (a lot of football fields are surfaced in artificial grass, including the Georgia Dome)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Elgin does that mean these are the new referee uniforms?

Don't football players tangle over a fumble? Or how about a rugby scrum? Then there's also the shovel pass. Also, just because the scoring object is football shaped who says its US football? Here's my favorite version of football, Australian Rules Football. Is this tangling?

They have an interesting goal scoring system using four vertical posts for different scoring possibilities. Hmmm, maybe I'll work this into my game thoughts> :rolleyes:

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

(underlined for emphasis)

Uh, Elgin, you spelled that wrong. It's "five 'bots".

Eagle Master convinced me that the apostrophe is there for a reason (specificially, he said it could be the symbol representing prime).

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I too was thinking about 6 or 8 foot lengths of 1-2 inch PVC coming up from the floor or from a moveable goal and robots either navigating through them or placing scoring objects (footballs) within them. That's what I first thought of when I read " 'bots tangling with pasta". PVC is cheap and widely accessible by all teams.

"Five 'bots" won't mean five robots competing, probably just five robots that fit into a given area like atop of a ramp or platform where the "pasta" is.

Those are my thoughts....

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Prime has yet another meaning. In the game of backgammon:
http://www.bkgm.com/rules/rul-faq.html

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

5 'bots...

Could it be a 6 robot game but only 5 footballs?
or
Only 5 spots for robots at the end-game. They will have to tangle (fight) for those 5 spots, as someone is not going to get one.

It says 5 'bot tangling, but that doesn't mean the 6th bot isn't doing something else.

(But I still think it's 2v3, with some wild way of making the teams or a wild way of scoring the match)

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Prime is also the term that denotes the derivative of a function

So we have 5 fewer or greater bots :D

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Wouldn't that also support the 3 vs. 3 (6 robots, two alliances) format though, just like the prime number definition?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Yea, it would support a 6 robot game (in my opinion)
I think there is allmost no chance of 3v2. I think 1v1v1v1v1 is more likely.
if it was 3v2, then there would have to some sort of a balancer, and some people would disagree that "the balancer" made it truly balanced. Balanced alliances without equal teams on each alliance would be a matter of opinion on what you think is more important. for example - whats worth more- advantage of numbers or advantage of game pieces worth more points? There is no right answer.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

There's been some talk about how "prime" is a common way to denote a derivative. Well, if we go back to our introductory calculus course, we remember that the derivative of a constant function is precisely equal to zero. 5 is a constant.

Hence,

5' = 0

Therefore,

five' bots tangling with pasta
= zero bots tangling with pasta

... Just something to think about

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

There you go! I was waiting for that idea to come up.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Or perhaps we can be a little creative using information other people have given:

5' = 5 + 1
5' = 0
5 + 1 = 0
5 = -1

negative one bots tangling with pasta :ahh:

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Silly Adam!

You can't have negative robots!



...Or can you...

:ahh:

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

whoa...that's almost zen-like...

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I bet after reading these over the years, Dave is never disappointed with the way his clues are dissected. It really is amazing to me how people will comb the internet fore the Montana State Flag and decipher whats on it in an attempt to figure out the game. i think this clue is a great way to get people excited about the upcoming season. Its like The Budweiser Shootout at Daytona is for NASCAR or the Draft is for the NFL. It sure is getting people on here excited.
Anyway, the CLUE!

-Doubt Pool Noodles(Too Obvious)
Same with Five Bots, too obvious. Granted the GDC knew that a simple search for the baseball players last year would reveal Triple play and you could say that that was too obvious so who knows.
Montana, Could be Joe Montana but I think that if they wanted to say something about football, they would have said it differently. I think there will be an uneven field again this year, even if nothing in the clue supports it, people like seeing robots have to go up stairs and ramps.
You have to think easy to reset, easy to clean, easy to get, that will help you out the most. If only Dave would tell us if someone hit the nail right on the -- > :]

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

i think we were on to something with the backgammon link..

perhaps a platform in the center with room for only 5 of 6 robots?

i'm going to wait till kick off lol...

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Maybe something like the game musical chairs, where there are enough for everyone except one?

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I think I will stick with a slippery surface due to http://www.ifirobotics.com/robot-traction-wheels.shtml.... I don't know about the clues though

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I had a rush of caffeine in me two nights ago and had thee dry erase boards filled with theories. Some were nutty but a few make sense. Camera, hill, etc.

I was typing up an ad to sell a book i didn't need anymore. Look at the clue from a grammar teacher's perspective. Rearranging some of the words and their meanings made a lot of sense.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I think that the surface of the hill or raised part of the field will be very slippery

4 the rest of the clues I have no clue except that the cam is back. Yeah people are going to love this .
well good luck 2 everyone and I hope this year is fun and we Win again

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

at this point, after so much speculation, most of the ideas have been exhausted...i'm inlclined to just wait the 8 days. of course, someone might come up with another brilliant idea, and blow the whole thing wide open..who knows

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

I'm ready to add another dimension into the mix.

Montana not only rhymes with banana (referring to the 2007 game hint picture again) but also bananas are grown in Montana.
edit:not as widely as I thought they were, more hobbyist than mass production.

Also, in the state of Montana there is a abnormally warm area in the state known as the Banana Belt.
edit: relatively warm, again not warm enough to grow bananas for mass production.

The Bitterroot valley is referred to as the "Banana Belt" of Montana due to the frequent mild winters. The valley’s extremely mild "banana belt" climate is attributable to the mountain ranges that bound and protect it. They include the Highland, McCartney, Green Horn, Gravely, Tobacco Root, and Ruby Mountains.


What do I see referring back to that 3rd line of the clue?

"Montana's green" Horn Mountain.

But, as I stated before, the word green, or more appropriately greenhorn, means

1. An inexperienced or immature person, especially one who is easily deceived.
2. A newcomer, especially one who is unfamiliar with the ways of a place or group.

Other references to the Greenhorn Mountain Range include the Heights, or highest points, in the case being Sheep Mountain (9697 ft) , Baldy Mountain (9621 ft), and Horse Hill (7894 ft) All located in Madison County, MT.
http://nris.mt.gov/gis/requests/tallpeaks.html

Does the Madison County reference mean the game will have a bridge of some kind in it?

I'm done for a while.

Have fun analyzing.

edit: received some info from a fellow CD cruiser who is a Horticulturist by Degree telling me of some discrepancies.
Fixed them.

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

must you always prove me wrong Elgin? :p

I love the "Montanta's Green" Horn Mountain part..that's REALLY interesting...i'm wondering how much stuff we're finding in here that wasn't intended by the GDC, but ends up being relevant somehow anyways...

Re: 2006 Official Game Hint Discussion
 

Banana Belt .. i bet that is the games name