School Problems
 

Unfortunately, our school (Havergal College in Toronto, Canada) does not fully understand FIRST or appreciate it as much as our team. This year, we aren't doing the FRC. Recently, we've also had a conflict with them concerning power tools, which they won't let us use anymore. This means that we can't build for fun like we had originally planned to do. This also means that we may not be able to go back to FIRST next year either. Of course, the whole team is extremely upset about this. We've tried talking to the school but our questions about why they are placing these restrictions have gone unanswered. Are any other teams out there experiencing similar problems? If so, how are you dealing with it? If not, do you have any ideas?

Thank you so much,
- Stephanie, Katherine, and Adelaide

Re: School Problems
 

I'm very sorry to hear that. We've never had problems like that, but I'm wondering if one of the team members did something with a powertool that upset the school? I know our team lets students come and go though the lab as they please because we trust their judgement, but there have been close calls (one student last year decided it would be fun to make black powder and raided the chem closet). What doesn't make sense to me is why the school doesn't tell you their rationale. My best suggestion is take the team and try and talk some sense into them. Also, alert the local media...a story on it could cause the school to shed some light on their decision.

Best of luck, and let me know if there's anything myself or my team can do to help!

-Nuttyman54

Re: School Problems
 

You tried talking to the school. Good start. If they don't listen, try going up the "chain of command"--from principal and school board to the district (or your equivalent in Canada), or farther if need be. Get some other teams in the area to help you, because if one school starts, another might join in, and then multiple teams are out. I figure that if you can produce a lot of people saying, "Please don't do this" or something similar, someone will eventually wake up and do something about it.

Re: School Problems
 

Better yet, get your parents involved. They are the "customers" as far as the school is concerned and administrators tend to listen to them more than the students.

Re: School Problems
 

You know, it doesn't take a school to have a FIRST team. If all else fails, break off from them and become independent.

Re: School Problems
 

You can also try to find a machine shop outside of the school to build the robot. Local businesses are always a good help. Good luck.

Re: School Problems
 

I think this is a perfect opportunity to test FIRST's newest system that is in place.

Namely, if you have tried communicating with your school by yourselves to no avail, contact your FIRST Senior Mentor for some help in dealing with them.

Sometimes it's not what you know going into a battle, but who you know.

I strongly hesitate to use the word battle, but it seems like all other non-invasive ways of contacting your school district is not working.

Maybe having a spokesperson for the organization you are aligned with, namely the Senior Mentor representing FIRST, you will have some ground to stand on.

I'm not sure who your FIRST Senior Mentor would be in your area, but hopefully someone else may know.

Good Luck, and we hope to see you back competing in FIRST in no time.

Re: School Problems
 

With the issue on power tools our school requires an adult to be in the room where we are working and for us to be allowed into the room we and our parents must sign a safety form, you may want to recomend some sort of policy like that to your school if its not in place already, they will like it alot more than the though of kids alone with power tools.

But definately talk with you senior mentor from FIRST as well as have parents talk to the school those are the best ways to et things done, wait to alert the media until nothing else works because calling the media is not going to make your school very happy with you

Re: School Problems
 

Go see the movie Fun with Di ck and Jane and maybe try something like that. Maybe not as elaborate or illegal, but publically make them look good and then how can they say no?

Re: School Problems
 

I know EXACTLY how you feel right now. My school has no clue what FIRST is. The only people that do know are the people that are actually on the robotics team. Our conflict was that we were going to merge with another team in order to have reached our level of funds and such. By merging, this would GREATLY benefit both teams. However, our self-centered school board decided that we could not do that. They did not approve of it. I am very ashamed of our school board because not only did they let me down, they let down about 30 other people. They also let down our special needs students who help us out tremendously. They should be ashamed of themselves. They have no clue what FIRST is, because if they did, they would let us have a robotics team this year. In order to make the schoolboard mad, some of us joined the team that we were going to merge with in the first place. The school board tried to take all the credit for our robots. They have no clue of anything about or robots, the game, or the experience. It bothers me that they would interfere as much as they did when they have no clue about FIRST. :mad:

Re: School Problems
 

Hi ladies,

Well, the first thing that I noticed about you is that you're from Canada. I don't know quite too much about Canadian geography, but you have some serious powerhouse teams up there. I would most certainly lobby them for support. Ask your schoolboard if they would be willing to talk with students from other teams who have been positively affected. Talk to the other teams and see if their administration would be willing to talk to yours and tell your administration why they support their program. Peer pressure works wonders, and is especially good when used in a positive manner. And even people such as administration are affected by peer pressure. Good luck!

Re: School Problems
 

Before you do anything rash, I'd like to remind you that they must have some reason for doing this. It's easier to do nothing than change a policy, so they wouldn't have unless they felt it necessary.

Several years back, our school had an issue with the cheerleaders. My understanding was that it had something to do with insurance. This limited what they could do (i.e. no pyramids or other such things that chearleaders do). I don't recall if they actually did these things, so it might not have actually affected them. They also to change their name. They went through a couple different names. Last I heard, they were called the "competetive dance team".

You say that your school won't give you a reason, but I think that's the first thing you need to find. Until you know why they put the policy in place, it might not be a good idea to try and fight it. Maybe insurance won't let them allow power tools on campus. Maybe they are trying to keep you guys safe but don't understand how important they are. Maybe they're trying to shut down your team without doing so directly. Whatever their reasons, you need to find out what they are to appropriately act on the situation. As Eric suggested, try moving your way up the chain of command.

Re: School Problems
 

Whatever you do, don't give up or be discouraged. I was told this year that they would not provide a substitute for me during competitions and that we would need to raise an extra $1500 to pay for a sub for 6 days (2 comps). I was also told that with our new superintendant that we would not receive financial support this year. But after an hour meeting with the new superintendant and parent/mentor we got $5000 from her discrecianary budget and eventually worked out a deal with the principal to cover 4 of the sub days. Don't give up and be persistant!!

I also have become more proactive regarding safety on our team. I make sure to instruct all the team members about the safety rules with each piece of equipment and make them all take a safety quiz in which they must get a 100% on and I keep a copy of it in my file. This is routine practice in shop classes and when it comes to liability, having documentation that students know the safety rules is important - as well as adult supervision. For my team our equipment is split up into three nearby buildings, so it is almost impossible to watch all of them all the time, but this too happens in shop classes as well, it is impossible for an instructor to be watching every student all the time. However an adult should be close by. So be proactive regarding safety to alleviate any concerns and DON'T GIVE UP! GOOD LUCK :)

Re: School Problems
 

When my schools budget failed this year everything got cut. So we looked for other ways to continue competing in FIRST. If all else fails you have 2 options assuming you still want to compete. you can break away from the school and fund yourselves, or you can find another school district that is willing to merge. My school requires us to sign a waiver in case we get hurt, and for the 3 years I've been in the club I've only gotten hurt twice, and it had nothing to do with power tools :D .

Re: School Problems
 

First off, never talk to your administration with an "Us vs Them" mentality or even think about feeling that way. They definitely have founded concerns.. It doesn't help. As others have suggested, talking to other well established teams with accomplishments under their belts tends to make the administration recognize that this program accomplishes great things. If you can't get another team to help you, print off Chairmen's awards and give them to your principal/school board. Another way is ask for space in public meeting to do a presentation. Bring a robot, bring everyone assosciated with your team, bring a video, bring testimonies, bring this whitepaper.

Just remember to never take the "Us vs Them" mentality and you should come out all right.

Re: School Problems
 

we have the same problem.... what i suggest doing is say like a promotional thing like having your bot out during all really big thing at your school like we had student appreciation day and the teachers were making pancakes so we threw to gather a simple but sturdy rig to hold a tray of pancakes and we drove them back and forth to the cafeteria and to the room ware tray were cooking the pancakes so you show off the robot you can do a thing ware you just randomly bing out the bot and let people drive it a round while hading fliers out withe web sites and and information on what FIRST is really a bout and you will get a couple...oh .... and you can go a round to schools who com to you school and got the and kind of do a robotics team school tour and you can do so much to promote that the amount of possible are endless so when you think of something don't be afraid to try it because you never know what might happen

Re: School Problems
 

Yes you can't walk into a meeting thinking that they are against you. Yes they may want to take funding away but it is not always that they are against you, or that it is even that person's view. But yes try getting teams in your area involved in helping you. Also make sure the administration knows what FIRST is really about. Show them what your team has done and what they had planned to do.

Good luck with this.

Re: School Problems
 

Seems to me that both of you (and anyone else in a similar situation) need to EXPLAIN to 'them' what FIRST is, how it benefits the school, community, and students. Especially students. The administration and Board are not mind readers, so the task now is to GO to a board meeting and give a short (3-5 minutes) but logical and sane presentation about FIRST.

sanddrag, Bharat, Elgin Clock and iCurtis all have excellent suggestions, as do others, but the point here is to start a dialogue with whoever 'they' are. Try to keep emotion out of it, stick to facts and issues. Any administrator, when they understand FIRST, will support it. sciguy125 has it right, you first need to find out what their concerns are, and then address those concerns.

This is the basic method for resolving anything, by the way.

Good luck & let us all know how it turns out.

Don

Re: School Problems
 

I agree that you have to talk to your administrators and work out a deal with them. Try to deal with any and all issues that may arise.

If they don't want to allow the team because of safety concerns write up a small syllabus that contains either a lecture concerning safety practices and a test to go with it, and maybe write up a liability waiver. Or, just use hand tools, and hope that it works out in the end.

If their issue is sponsorship, try asking for sponsorship from businesses from the area. My school district hasn't officially sponsored any of the teams in the district in years. We're very lucky to have corporate sponsorship from BEA Systems, and just by looking at the FRC master list you can notice that a large percentage of the teams have some form of sponsorship. Try your hand at fund raising.

Or if they have concerns over space being taken up by the team, try asking around your community for a space they might have available for the team to use. There is always someone willing to help, even if the space is small. Teams have built their robot in a space the size of the pits at the competitions, don't fret.

But the best approach is to provide evidence of how FIRST has affected your alumni, and proof of how you are taking safety into account. Talk with everyone you can and ask the member's parents to phone and talk with the appropriate members about allowing the team to continue.

Re: School Problems
 

You Realize that its not up to the school what your first team does? Merge with another team anyway. First has no connection to the school, so the school has no say in the matter. As long as you have an alternate place to work with said team, you can basically tell the school "Shove It" :p

And for those of you who are depending on funding from your school I have one word for you FUNDRAISE :p . I live in a little no name town in the middle of corn fields, and a team with 30 people on it, about a 4th of them actually trying to fundraise if that, manage to raise 20,000 to 30,000 a year. Plus the cost of room and board for our trips with minimal costs to the students. Then we find the funds to go to off season competition(s) every year. It can be done. Just try harder. Best of Luck :D

-Team 808

Re: School Problems
 

Thanks for the advice from everyone. We have tried multiple attempts to explain to both the school and the schoolboard about what FIRST is. I hate to say this, but 90% of the people that live in my county are extremely simple-minded. We have tried to break it up into simple pieces. They still do not understand it the way we want them to understand it. Since students are not allowed into the meetings, we can't exactly show the schoolboard how it gives us the experience. It's just too late with kick-off next week. Its just easier to forget the hassle and join our other team. It might not be the same experience, but we still get to be involved with FIRST. I just wanted to let other teams know that they are not the only ones out there with school-related problems. (It might just make them feel a bit better).

Re: School Problems
 

WAIT your students are allowed into school board mettings ?!?! :ahh: Thats Ridiculus

When I lived in Alexandria, VA Students were allowed, What type of bull is that. I would look into that. I really dont know how the education system runs down there anymore. But there is no reason you shouldn't be allowed into school board meetings.

Re: School Problems
 

Yeah, I wish there was something we could change, but the decision has been made final.

Re: School Problems
 

Well then go ahead and merge with the other team. Your school can't stop you, or for no reason hinder you, or discourage you from going, using school related reasons. Except for getting out of school for competitions that is. In that case just get ur parents to get you out.

Re: School Problems
 

That's the snag--getting out of school for a school approved absence. I have all four years of perfect attendance of high school, I never ever miss a day. But, I do get to have around 2 school approved absences if I decide to tour a college. VCU just so happens to be a college. VCU just so happens to be the college that I applied to attend next year. So...I'll just use that as my school approved absence. As for the other team members, I have no clue. I wish them luck in dealing with the whole absence from school issue.

Re: School Problems
 

Get them to call out sick. They can't technically do anything to you. Or you could always get ur parents to move to Fairfax county. Alexandria was the #1 school system in the country for a while, I don't know if it still is :p

Re: School Problems
 

OOO-GAH! OOOO-GAH! GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM ALERT!

Would it make your grandmother proud to know that you are skipping class on purpose, then lying about it?

Re: School Problems
 

Who is allowed into the meetings? Just board members? That would hardly be very transparent.


The real ethical dilemma is whether the greater evil is skipping class under false pretenses to do something more productive, or letting the school board make a bad decision on your behalf. (That is to say, you think that it's more productive, and that they're making a bad decision, though they might disagree on both counts.) I can think of a few situations where skipping class and lying about it would be more efficaceous (for your purposes) than trying to convince an unwilling or incompetent school board—but that's not licence to make arbitrary mischief. In standing up for your needs, you have to weigh that sort of decision very carefully; is it honourable, is it legal, is it necessary, have you exhausted all simpler options? Most importantly, are you absolutely sure that you're right, and they're wrong; and is this fact demonstrable? Though civilized protest is considered an annoyance, it's generally tolerated by society; if you have to break the rules, do it cautiously and with due consideration—it's by no means the easy way to get what you feel that you deserve. And you're very probably going to get in trouble for doing it. So is the trouble worth it? That's not something that we can tell you; it's a judgment call.

For the sake of completeness, is there another option by which you might avoid the dilemma in the first place, while still getting what you want? Or worse, does the school board actually have a good, solid reason for doing what it's doing? Carefully address these points, before undertaking any sort of violation of the rules, in order to make the best of a bad situation.*


Someone mentioned earlier that parents are the customers; frighteningly enough, this is the sad reality. (Sad, because students are not infrequently caught between their own parents and a school's administration—but that's another story....) You may be able to use this to your advantage. Call me a little cynical, but since Havergal is a private school, the connection between ongoing financial support and the parents is probably pretty obvious to the administration; I'd imagine that they'll tend to be more open to your parents' concerns, than yours.

I'm curious as to what the reasons for their power tool limitations are. I suspect liability (and therefore insurance) is partly the reason. Of course they're insured against various sorts of harm that may befall you at school; but do you have details of the policy—does it cover the things that are inherent to robotics? This information shouldn't be withheld from you (after all, the policy covers you, as a student); ask your principal directly for this (and for the name of the insurer), and see what answer you get. If their policy doesn't cover robotics, ask them what it would take to get it added. There might be an increased premium to add coverage (and you'd be on the hook for the difference), but that's better than not having a team in the first place.

If it's just a general fear of injury that prompts them to keep you away from the power tools, education is likely the answer. In this situation, you've got to make clear to them that you know what you're doing; this means, firstly, making sure that everybody actually does know what they're doing, and secondly, proving this to the school. I should hope that they will be receptive to this sort of logic—after all, they're probably as likely to lose a hand in a car accident as you are to lose a hand to an out-of-control tool, and in both cases, informed and responsible users mitigate the risk of injury. Show them that you're not at unreasonable risk, and they might relent.

The worst case is, of course, if they have some ideological reason for not supporting robotics, or technical skills in general; perhaps they think it unfeminine**, unprofessional or uneducational. We would consider these things to be totally fallacious, but how do you convince someone else of this? That's something to discuss in more detail, if this is an issue.

If nothing works out, there are many teams in the Toronto area that would certainly be open to acquiring some extra talent for the build season; don't hesitate to talk to other local teams about a "Plan B", both for the 2006 season, and for the future, if you're still at an impasse.

*Alright, I realize that this is a controversial position, but it is not outside of the realm of possibility that a school board might be so fundamentally out of touch with reality, that the best resolution to a given situation involves—after thorough examination of the options available—breaking a few rules. Look at Dover, PA, for instance....
**Havergal is a girls' school, for those who didn't know, and didn't catch the unsubtle contextual clue. ;)

Re: School Problems
 

School Board members and faculty/staff. The only way students can talk directly to the schoolboard during one of their meetings is through letters. Many people write letters. We could have written a million letters and their minds would not have changed. Our school board had their minds set on having a team without the merge. If we had to do it this way (which we're not) we'd have to raise an additional amount of money very fast.

Re: School Problems
 

Does your state have an open meetings law? In South Carolina, anybody can attend school board meetings, not to mention get most records for just the price of copying. I can't really imagine having it any other way.

Re: School Problems
 

Billfred,

If you're posing this to the initial poster, there are 2 things that may inhibit that. #1, they go to a private school. Private schools have all-around different rules. #2, they're from Canada. Once again, Canada has different rules, though typically they are very similar.

Re: School Problems
 

Beth, he's posting with regard to 1610's question; they had similar issues to the team from Canada, but they're from Franklin, Virginia.

Speaking of which, members of 1610 should take a look at this link, and especially Section B. I believe that covers in adequate detail what needs to be done to be heard before the Franklin school board. Specifically, see sections BBBB and BDDH for opportunities for student participation. Per section BDDH, "[a]ny citizen may address the Board at any regular meeting", if proper prior notice is given; additionally (as a separate right afforded you by these bylaws), if a student (or certain others) wishes to make a presentation for 5 minutes during the "citizens' time" portion of the meeting, he needs only to notify the clerk before 7:30 p.m. on the day of the meeting. (Note that the closed portions of meetings are handled differently, but that shouldn't be an issue for you, because you aren't discussing confidential information.) Per section BDDG, the minutes of every meeting are kept, and available for a nominal copy charge, during business hours to any Virginia citizen, at the school board office. They're also required to submit to a FOIA request, if things really get out of hand.

So, with a copy of that document in hand, get the team together to make a full-fledged presentation (not the 5-minute citizens' time, if you can help it); be organized, and make your appointment well in advance. Billfred was right—you're entitled to participate in the administration of your education system. I don't know who told you that you're only allowed to write letters to the board, but you should probably have a word with them about that misconception.

Also, be nice to them; they observe Robert's (Revised) Rules of Order, and will expect that you conduct yourselves accordingly. Just give them the facts, in a nice, sincere presentation, and then hope that they see past the money problems....

Re: School Problems
 

keep in mind that the school does not need to fund the team. My team receives no funding whatsoever from our school, they simply provide us with a staff advisor and a place to work

Re: School Problems
 

My School more or less did the same. Our Techology supervisor for the school system and thought it was cool so she set the team up. The school basically said, if you can raise the money yourself, and get some sort of adult to supervise (In our case those would be the couple of mentors with us on the team) Then go ahead. But then again, the Machine shop we have been using was 5 years old, and hadn't had a class in it. So we had to replace almost everything this year short of a laithe, Using the funding we had aquired.



***

Note: To any one who was offended, the post about having your parents call you off school, if the school didn't support the team was a Joke. Just so we're clear .:p

Re: School Problems
 

Yeah I'm using 1610's number, because I'm part of their team now. (Supposedly). All of our 616 mentors joined 1610's team because they're not dealing with our school board and their issues anymore. But our team number was 616. And the reason why we couldn't go to the school board meeting was because it was a closed one in which they met to decide our fate. If we wanted to attend, we would have had to submit a proposal to the school board and then they would have to vote to see if we could get in 7 days prior. We didn't know until 3 days before of the meeting.

Re: School Problems
 

Thanks for the advice!

The main problem is that we don't know why the school is putting restrictions on us, and we're trying to figure that out first before we go into more drastic actions.

Thanks!

Re: School Problems
 

Ask. If they don't tell you, get your parents or teachers to ask. If the school does not tell them, it may mean that they don't have a reason, in which case you need to go higher up. If you really have to, split from the school and form a neighborhood club to compete.