4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

So, my question pertains to 4.3.4.1.

If I just tape a laser pointer to my bot that only turns on when I press the button on it is that legal?

Thanks,
- Erik

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Just don't use it at Portland when I'm sitting in the stands, OK? :ahh:

P.S. If it's not against the rules it should be...

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Refer to the Parts Use Flowchart on page 14 of section 5 to determine if it is legal.

I would say no, citing the first question the flowchart asks:

"Is the part a safety hazard or likely to damage robots, the field, or interfere with the humans or the controls?" --> YES --> No!! It may not be used.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

If I understand its purpose correctly: to determine where your cannon is aimed. I don't understand why you don't tape it on and remove it when it is needed. Regardless of whether or not a robot accidentally turns it on, you might break it.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

The section that you are pointing to has nothing to do with laser pointers. In the past, laser pointer were deemed harmful additions, in that you cannot control where the beam is being directed and might cause vision loss in a competitor or observer. If you follow the flow chart in section 5, Robot Rules, "Is the part a safety hazard or likely to damage robots, the field, or interfere with the humans or the controls?", answer yes and the part may not be used.

Essentially this comes from the following in section 5,
<R31> No devices or decorations are permitted on the robot that are intended to jam or interfere with the
operation of the vision system (i.e. changing robot color to confuse opponent’s vision system).
Sorry

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Why not just fit a flashlight to an end of a pvc tube? If you have a bright enough light/ make it like orange or something it is normal non-interfering visible light...

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

if you are in fact using it to aim, one could plausibly have the robot do some math for you using the angle that the CMU cam is at (my team programmer says that it does that this year) and do some trig using the height of the target the CMUcam follows and how far your robot shoots to have the robot light up a fire at will light on your control area. Or, even better, you could have a robot that fires at will when a shitch is flipped once it checks that it is within the correct angle ranges for the ball to go in. (again, the angles (verticle and horizontal) are returned to you by the CMUcam)

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

I don't know about you, but if someone's flashing a flashlight in my eyes, I'd get kind of distracted.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

I should have been clearer for the purpose. First of all it would be mounted about 2in above the ground. It would never be on during the operation of the robot. The point of it is to aim the robot PRIOR to atonomous. Their is no safety hazard as it is pointed so low, just on the field to align the bot prior to driving.

So I pose it again, anything illegal?

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

If you consider the laser part of the robot it would not pass the acceptable parts flow chart because it is a safety concern. If you say it's not part of the robot than it would violate G11: it would be an alignment device. Therefore, although the laser is not explicitly banned, your robot might be arbitrarily moved by the head referee. Doing something that violates a rule with the hope that you won't get caught violates gracious professionalism.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Actually, the laser qualifies as a MECHANISM. One of the PARTs in that mechanism is the laser battery. This battery is not allowed, because it is an energy source.


It's all in the manual, pretty clearly.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Not to mention the fact you can't "tape it to the robot" like you say, without violating <R33>.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Agreed.

If you were to power this mechanism through the robot battery, then what?

Matt

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

If you were to include the laser pointer as a part of the robot with its internal battery it would violate <R02> and <R51>.
I don't think you can answer Yes to this question.
I would say mounting a laser pointing away from your robot would be considered unsafe.
I would say that if the light source was safe, and didn't effect the vision targeting system than it would be considered a custom circuit and could be connected with respect to <R58>.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

One should note that there is such thing as an "eye safe" laser, which transmits at a frequency that doesn't harm the eyes because it is absorbed by the cornea rather than being focused on the retina. As long as such a device is used in good faith (you know, as in it isn't green and it isn't shone on the other drivers), none of Mike's above cited rules appear to be violated.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Does what you have in mind violate <G11> at all?

<G11> Alignment Devices - Alignment devices (templates, tape measures, lasers, etc.) that are not part of the ROBOT may not be used to assist with positioning the ROBOT. Teams that use external alignment devices to position their ROBOT will have their ROBOT arbitrarily repositioned by the head referee.

If it doesn't violate that, is affixed to the robot with something other than tape, does not have an internal battery, is safe to the eye, won't throw off other robots (by color, frequency, etc) ... then I would say it's alright to have.

In any case, once Q&A is back up, I'd ask FIRST.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Well some one got it I think, their is a battery so no dice.

We have just decided to use a gun scope.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

If I understand you correctly: you want to use a gun scope to align your robot once you place it on the field before a match; you can't! Rule <G11> explicitly forbids you from using ANY device for aligning your robot at the beginning of the match.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

It says that alignment mechanisms that aren't part of the robot are illegal. If it is attached to the robot, then by rule G11 it would be legal.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Yes, you are correct: a gun scope is allowed on a FIRST robot per the 2006 Parts Use Flow chart, if the cost of the scope is under $400 and the total cost of non-kit parts are under $3,500.

However, let's not "lawyer" rule <G11>. The intent of rule <G11> is for teams to quickly place their robots on the field without going through elaborate alignment methods. This means not using devices attached or unattached to the robot who's specific purpose is to align the robot. The kit of parts has been supplied with an abundant amount of sensors so that specific robot placement is unnecessary.

I'm not on the game committee, I'm not from FIRST. If you don't buy my answer you can ask FIRST for a clarification and more specifically the intent of rule <G11>.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Well our analysis of the rules came to the same conclusion as it WOULD be mounted on the bot. We will ask in ask FIRST thoughr

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Wait if you have a user controlled light, nothing potentially harming like a laser, that wouldn't interfere with the CMU and was attached to the robot powered through the robot would it be legal. I mean using it so its only on when pointing at the top goal would it be legal?

Of coarse if it started being shone at another driver it would fit in what you mention and the robot would be subject to shut down, but legally is such a aiming mechanism against any of the rules? I'm also assuming that the light is sufficiently guided so that none of the glare of the light finds it's way to the player station. I think you would have to narrow the beam much more then a standard flashlight to get any real indication of your cannon position but it is a good guide if you either can't get the camera to work or if it breaks during normal game play.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

I don't see the problem with a laser as long as it is weak enough that it will not cause eye damage. There are certian classes of lasers that are rated this way. Also, who says you have to use the entire laser pointer with the battery? There are plenty of places that sell laser dioded meant ot be powered by an external source

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

you can make up sights for aligning your robot on the field. In the past we used simple things, like drinking straws or a small piece of PVC pipe that were attached to the robot, to look through.

you dont need much, trying to align your bot to within 1/4" on a wall 40 feet away would be a waste of time. If you can repeatedly align it within +/- 1 degree thats probabally the most you need.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Mech,
I think you will find that the light source will be sufficient to aim the camera. You may not need your own source. Remember that an added light source will reflect on the face of the diffuser and send the beam somewhere else where you might not see it. I am assuming you are trying to aim a shooting device prior to match start. If that is the case, I am guessing that a team update will make that illegal while still allowing power to the camera (as last year's rules allowed) prior to match start. Just my opinion, I have nothing to do with the Q&A or the GDC, just a voice in the wilderness.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Ok,
on one hand <G11> says you can't use "alignment devices" taht are NOT part of the robot at the beginning of a match or at any other time....,.Fair enough.

On the other hand, if some sort of "alignment device" is permanently attached to the robot, then that device likely falls under the classification of a "decoration". Yes?

And then, under <R102> and on-board decoration can't affect the outcome of a match and must be in the spirit of "gracious professionalism".

Therefore, Perry Mason...case closed. Just line-up within your 5'x5' box of tape and pray you don't go off inthe wrong direction during autonomous mode; hey which end of the robot faces the wall anyways? Oops.... :rolleyes:

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

well, actually no. Alignment is a function. It has a purpose that is critical to thats robots performance, therefore and to wit it is not decoration :^)

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

FIRST Q&A have answered:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=181

Ruled legal.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

Actually that refers to an onboard scope or sighting device mounted to the robot.

This post:
http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=129

Says that lasers or any bright light for aiming can pose a safty issue and therefor may not be used.

Re: 4.3.4.1 - onboard laser?
 

I would reccomend just lining up the robot with one side touching the wall and let your programmer take it from there. From the camera posistion you can aim you cnnon(whatever shoots the ball) and using the gear tooth counters you can get yourself to a posistion on the field with relative accuracy. THat is how 75% of the teams will do it this year(some may just count loops rather than using sensors) It has proven effective in the past and makes lining up you bot very fast and easy. With a gun sight you run the risk of damaging the sight or having it bumped ruining the accuracy. If you have every shot a gun with a scope you have likly realized that if it gets bumped a little then it will ruin the accuracy, there is more than a little bumping on the field. Just because it is allowed does not make it a good idea.