scoring in center goal from platform
 

I read the game manual and didn't find anything that forbids scoring in center goals while on the platforms, but this is still haunting me :ahh:
I just need to make sure because my whole idea depends on it, can anyone confirm that I can do it?

Thanks

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

Lets hope so ;) .

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

The field is 54 ft. long. When your robot is on the platform, I'm assuming your home platform, it will be launching from approx. 52ft. away from a goal that is elevated to 8.5 ft. This height of the gaol dictates that the range of a shot must be greater to hit it than a shot attempting to reach the same plane that it is launched from.
Using the basic equation for RANGE of a projectile and plugging in 12m/s as the velocity (max. allowed by the rules) and 45 deg. as the elevation of launch, your range will be 48.2ft. This calculation ignores all other factors influencing the flight of the ball, like friction, rotation, air movement etc. As you can see, if you play by the rules, you CAN'T hit the center target from the platform. :(

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

I believe he means from right underneath his goal, on his opponent's platform. I'm sure this is legal, but there are several caveats. 1) You still have to shoot the ball. The height limit still puts the top of your bot 7" from the bottom of the goal. I dunno how they'd rule on a jumping bot, but that's a pretty big jump. 2) You're on your opponent's platform. if you end the game their, you score points for them. More importantly, they're allowed to pin you as long as they want if you're on either of the platforms.

Not saying it's a bad idea, as I'm sure accuracy skyrockets, but there are trade-offs and risks associated with it.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

I meant to climb on the platform close to my center goal to make a close range shoot.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

I completely agree, that's why I included the caveat, "I'm assuming your home platform,".
As a team, we discussed the possibility of a jumping robot as well. We decided it really wasn't to our advantage to pursue it. I think it would most likely violate the max height rule, but that will be up to the judges, and FIRST, to decide. I wouldn't put it past a team to actually create one. I'm sure it would win a design award if it was successful, and not disqualified.

I think a jumping robot would be AWESOME!

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

It's the very first idea we thought of. There are a lot of benefits to it, although, as Kevin writes, if the other team is willing to dedicate a really good pusher, they might trap you on the platform. If your robot is also a good pusher, I don't know how long a 'bot pushing up the ramp could hold you in place. A side thrust from a defending 'bot could pin you, but if you start in the center, you should be able to back down even with a 'bot pushing from the side. Would the defender want to forgo all their own scoring to do this? I dunno. Unless you are really a bad shot, it will guarantee 30 points, although that reduces to 15 net if they successfully pin you. Tricky strategy in this game...

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

If they're on defense, they have every reason in the world to pin you or push you around on the platform. Likewise if they're an alliance of one pointers. The main point being that you're a sitting duck up there. A very accurate, high point scoring, sitting duck. Possibly with figurative "Push Me!" signs plastered all over you.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

Yep. Let's say you have one of those legendary Midwest drive trains with six motors per side and six 6-inch wide, 8-inch diameter wheels with Griptanium treads. Would you risk the high-ground strategy? I don't know the right answer, but I think I'm starting to really understand the questions.

I don't think a robot coming up the ramp could easily pin one on the top of the ramp. We tried driving a 'bot up the ramps at our kick-off event, and the nose came really high before it tipped flat onto the ramp. Think of all those World War II movies where the good guys kill the big bad German tank by shooting into its soft underbelly as it comes over a berm. This was an '05 chassis, so it wasn't optimized for "ramping," but it was illustrative. You might run a really big risk coming straight up a ramp at a 'bot already on the top and ready to push you over backwards. A defensive 'bot already on top is another thing altogether.

One thing that troubles me is the idea of pushing back down the ramp and either going on top of the defensive robot, or pushing it over backwards and ending up on top of it. Either way, I think, your bot is going down sideways. Is self-righting going to be necessary this year?

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

This is all very interesting, our team was also thinking about shooting form the platform. The idea of falling over as a result of trying to get off is a big deal. It will be very interesting to see what happens this year. And as for the comment about self righting mechanisims, that is very possible!!! :ahh:

Josh
SGSDragons
Team Driver and Designer

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

I know in 2003 in Stack attack the ramp was only a 15 degree angle half of this year's angle and robot on the top playing defense would consistently knock over bots coming up. You can definitely design a robot that won't get knocked over but you'll have to have a very low center of gravity. The trick for the bot at the top of the ramp is push back at the robot as it just comes over the top. I doubt teams will be disqualified or penalized for tipping bots in such a position. Its just a very serious feild hazard that robots will need to be designed to deal with.

So yes as other people have said, you can shoot from the platform and no I don't think it will be that easy to be pinned up there with a reasonably solid drivetrain. Someteams might slip up on the lexan however, if you're going to spend time on the platform test your traction on it. In 2004 robots would slide all over the place on the HDPE using certain tread materials.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

Yeah. I am quite sure that any time your robot violiates the hight rule of 5' you get a penalty. But I'm not with NASA or anything, so don't take my word for it.

Also the angle from which you have to fire would be disadvantageous maybe.

Plus, if your robot is five feet tall all the time, and you go up a 30 degree incline, there's a good chance that you will topple over.

If you had some mechanism that extended, then you have to wait for it to extend.

Additionally, you have to convey the balls up to the top somehow.

Sorry to be so discouraging here. There are some great things about this idea, it's just that there are some disadvantages that maybe if you wanted to do this you would need to focus on working around.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

If you have a high-capacity machine that can quickly shoot multiple balls into the center goal from atop your opponent's platform, does it really matter if they pin you? If anything, don't they want to get you off the platform?

When your offensive period ends, they'd be sacrificing scoring opportunity to keep you back there and even the odds to 2 vs. 2 on the other side of the field. If you're still stuck at the end of the match, you'd need to have scored 5+ balls through the center goal to negate their potential ramp bonus. Anything above that is gravy.

If your machine needs to be up on the platform to score in the center goal and you can't manage to get five balls in over a minute and a half, you probably ought not be up there at all.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

Figurative "Push Me!" sign? If your robot's got AndyMark's or another really awesome drivetrain under it's hood, why not put a real "Push Me!" sign on your robot? You'd be guaranteed to show up in several team's videos/picture galleries. :eek:

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

I'd suggest going for it and if you could have one of teammates bot try giving you some help until you dump your load and if you make your wheels omni direction or at least move side to side you could easily get out of a pin while on top as it is designed to fit 3 robots

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

how can an opponent's robot pin me on the platform if they have to be in a 30º ramp (maybe less because some of them can put the front wheels on the beginning of the platform, but yet....)? Well, it's possible but our chances to get rid of him are higher

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

the problem with that is that your speed is limited to something like 28 mph
and its to far to shoot with that much speed


hope this helps

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

A few people on my team (including me) were joking about a robot that could climb the Plexiglas with high strength suction cups mounted on "climbing arms" and then pour the balls in the center goal. Of course they could never hold the weight and I don't want to think about what would happen if the robot fell. :ahh:

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

I'm sure if you got up there your accuracy would be very high but you have to keep in mind how long it will take you to get up there and how long it will take you to go back down and reload. If you only have enough time to get up once you might not have time to reload and do it again. Also, if this is your only means of scoring then with a little bit of scouting opposing teams will figure out that you need to get up there and when they are on defense they will just put a bot in front of the ramp to prevent you from getting up there and leave you totally ineffective. It could be an effective strategy but I wouldn't count on it.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

I find it funny that people are dismissing doing this quickly cause you don't have the height to jump. (What's up with that?)

7" is a lot less to worry about shooting to then a 15-20' shot from quarter field accurately.

Hasn't anyone ever heard of a finger roll?

Get on ramp, if someone traps you against the wall, who cares, they can't hover over you if you are max height.

Shoot with backspin much slower than 12m/s to prevent penalties and get ball(s) in goal.

I think this is a great strategy, and something even a rookie team can do once they figure out how to gather balls effectively, and make a nice release system with some backspin.

I see this being the 2nd simplest of robot designs, and only one step up from a herder/lower goal scorer.

The most challenging part (and testing with my team tonight proves this real easy even to just do that) will be to actually get on the platform.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

Has any one thought about instead of shooting if u could figure out how to get it high enough in the air but instead of a shooting the ball have the bot to kick it.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

See, if I were defending against a robot doing the finger roll, I wouldn't bother pushing them against the wall. That's where they want to be anyways. I'd jump up next to them on the ramp, then shove them sideways to the edge of the platform. Pin them there if I can, but they wouldn't be scoring any time soon after that. This is assuming I can push them around and they can't push me, of course.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

If the ball goes higher than 60" and then you try to kick it (think of it as a spike in Volleyball), you will be penalized for a height violation.

If you are talking about a (football) placekicker effect mounted on your bot below 60" to shoot the ball into the goal, that's an interesting concept, and to tell you the truth, I hadn't considered that.


hehehe.. Now that you said that out in the open, I would add a curved multi-positional attachment to my shooter to shoot from anywhere on the ramp. Your best defense would be to get me pinned in the corner of the ramp between the lexan wall, and the players station wall, so my angle of shooting was so unbelievably shallow, it couldn't make it most of the time.
Or any of the time in some cases.

But, if I designed a drive system with enough torque because my object was to get on the ramp anyways (new cim motors) good luck pushing me.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

also if u go with a shooter how are u gonna manage getting the balls from ur holding area to ur shooter without over filling ur shooter. :confused:

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

The platform surface is made of daimondplate right? (I read the field elements materials list) In addition, you may want to consider the grip your treads provide on the platform. For defensive/offensive purposes, even a robot with enough torque may be beaten if its wheels are not well suited for a smooth surface. Eg. skyways haha. (for that matter skyways probably won't even provide enough grip to get up the platform).

And if you are scoring from the platform, at that angle it may be difficult to score if the firing device is low to the ground. My dad suggested using the angle of the ramp itself to allow you to aim balls at the goal.

I wonder. If you didn't want to be pushed around, maybe pneumatically deployed suction cups would do the trick. Sure, maybe you score 15 points for the opponent, but if your robot scores every ball and your bot is loaded with a ton of balls, you may walk away the winner.


*runs off and dreams new robot*

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

Correction. The Ramp portion is diamondplate, the platform portion is made of Lexan on the top most layer (the layer the bot would be sitting on), and the sidewalls are also Lexan.

Re: scoring in center goal from platform
 

See... I don't try to contemplate defending against robots that can push me around and score at will and a bunch of other things. Exercise in futility. Also, one of the kids did some geometry on the goal profile at different areas on the field. It gets remarkably bad remarkably quickly, really.

Also, off topic, but why is everyone so hot on the new CIMs? They're neat, and have half the revs of the smaller CIMs for less gearing, but they also have 60W less peak power. The only advantage is the increased efficiency. And the gnarly faceplate and lack of mounting holes.....