What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Well, last season we offered the Chester Challenge Tiki to the first team that capped the center goal with the vision tetra in autonomous mode.

And nobody could do it.......

So we are looking for the new 2006 Chester Challenge.

And we ask- what is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?

I'll announce the parameters of the Challenge on Saturday. I have some evil ideas. But you might have something even better.


WC :cool:

(from your evil friends at team 25)

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Hmm... Maybe put all 10 balls though the cnter goal in less than, say, 7 seconds?

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

How about put all 10 balls in the center goal in autonomous, without using a dead reckoning system? It is the main objective once again, or the highest scoring option.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I think it depends on the accuracy of the camera to green light system this year, but in the past, using the specialized autonomous sensory has been the supreme challenge. I'm going to guess Donut is off because I think that 10 in the center in autonomous can be done w/out dead-reckoning.

I'll put my money on being able to fire a ball into the goal while moving. That means taking into account a lot of factors.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I thought the goal would want to be autonomous again... if not, I agree it should be firing the ball in while moving. But why keep it that simple? They should also have to shoot it from their own end of the field, so it's a half-field shot at least.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I suggest either auto tracking the center goal with the CMU cam and putting a ball in while the robot is traveling at full speed at full speed or and alliance the has every robot put in at least one ball during auton.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

how about the farthest a robot launches a ball and successfully lands into the center goal :D

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I know that historically the tiki goes to one team.

But what about one that goes to the first alliance with a functionally perfect autonomous score of 50 points? You'd have to have all three robots sink all ten balls in all three goals, but I'll bet there'll be an alliance to get it done.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

the hardest task this year is the same as every other year:

getting the engineers out of the crate so you can close it up and the FedEx guy can haul it away!

"Let me just bolt on this one last sensor, and test it...."

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Why couldn't an alliance score 90 points in autonomous mode, wouldn't that be harder, yet possible ?

--Mike

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I agree with this. The time it will take (I think) so shoot the 10 balls will make it difficult to do in 10 seconds...and that's assuming you shoot immediately when autonomous starts...which is somewhat impossible.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

actually if all alliances shot then there would be 90 points scored in autonomous

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I think having an autonomous score of 100, all 30 team balls in the center goal and having the 10 point bonus will be one of the hardest to achieve part of this game.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

To beat our team :P, and to do "everything" possible in the game.. like every other year.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

The thing is, is that really possible? Can any alliance shoot all thirty balls into the center goal in ten seconds? My gut instinct says you won't see that happen. Ten, though, is entirely possible.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

i think (if i recall are math from lastnight's meeting) the farthest away you can be with the limit of 12m/s and still make the shot (no wind resistance) is about the halfway line. maybe a little more but no much.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

30 shots at the same 30 inch space in ten seconds seems like a midair collision to me. I agree with Billfred it just doesn't seem possible.

I actually have difficulty believing 10 in 10 seconds is possible without violating 12m/s with the first few shots.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Anyone that scores on the high goal while moving parallel to the plane of the goal while moving at least 5 fps. We aren't even going to try...

You could make this even more challenging by making it the first team to score more than five times per match using the above conditions.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Human scoring will be harder than it might seem. We mocked up something last night and practiced to see how easy or hard it will be and I'll be surprised if anyone can score 10 consecutively. Scoring is achievable - consecutively 10 times in a row will be a challenge from that distance and with robots running around.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

with a spinning wheel shooter you can launch balls as fast as you can hopper them into the input side

Ive personally seen a soccer ball shooter like this that launched them about 40 feet, and if you fed it fast enough you could have several balls IN THE AIR at the same time. It literally fired a stream of soccer balls.

One problem with this (I mentioned in another thread) the wheels do slow down when you fire a ball, so you either need a powerful motor to spool them back up between shots, or you need a big flywheel.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Being realistic, I'd say that that's impossible.

If you were to somehow design an /incredibly/ accurate robot who could make 75% of its shots, you would still have to fire off fifteen shots in 6.8 seconds (less than 7) or 2.205 balls per second. And 75% is not realistic for an acuracy measure.

I would say a challenge could be to:

carry x balls (suggestion: 35-40)
make y% accuracy with a shooter(suggestion: 70%) (within some reasonable amount of time, though not really timed)

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

What about scoring on your goal from the platform below it? There was lots of debate how this would never work before.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Personally, I'm going to be looking for these two things. I bet they're even feasible.

1) One robot scoring all 10 balls to the center during autonomous.

2) A robot with a completely automated vision and aiming system, who can score >10 consecutive balls to the center during _human_ player mode. And I'd want to see these shots taken from at least a few different places on the field.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I second that objective (notice i bolded and underlined "without" using a dead reckoning system).

First team to do it wins.

Let the games begin.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I'd agree with that one. We measured the distance, and it was really far. I doubt someone could make 5 consecutive shots even without the wall in front of them.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I'd say hitting the goal on the move, when not moving either parallel or perpendicular to the goal, so at some other angle than dead on or straight across as those are easy to account for, but when you not only change distance to the goal but also angle to it, thats tough, we thought about it, and it turns into such a painful calculation, it's probably one of the hardest feats in this game, whether in autonomous or in human mode.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Okay, couple things wrong here. First of all, assuming an autonomous challenge, you could, by yourself, only shoot ten balls. Now, That is a ball every 7/10 of a second, which (look at you watch) is not that short a period using a flywheel to throw them. Now, the challenge assumes that you SHOOT the balls in 7 seconds, so you get three second grace period to find and lock onto the target. Sounds pretty possible to me, especially if you did it without moving from your starting position.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I think you guys aren't taking everything into account when you say that 10 balls in 7 seconds is impossible. What about a 2 or even scarier 4 barrel launcher! We'd see some fast scoring.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

well, i think the hardest thing to do this year would be to block the center goal shots...our team figured out one of the very VERY FEW ways to do it legally....but we couldnt do it due to power issues... :(, i was looking forward to it

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

for a little persepective on this, the max airspeed of the ball is 12 meters per second

if you fire balls at one second intervals they will be 12 meters apart in flight

thats ~40 feet apart. in the world of launched projectiles that is a HUGE space

I can visulalize balls flying through the air 2 meters apart, and all going in the goal - at 12 m/s that 10 balls in 1.66 seconds!

Its very easy to get tunnel vision, and only think of the problem in terms of what a human being can do

we need to think of this in terms of what a machine can do. A machine with a computerized targeting system, and 2HP at its disposal.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

How about a robot accurately scoring over 90% of the shots they take in a match? That sounds possible, but all comes down to how your robot and your driver cooperate. Cooperation between man and machine, SWEET!

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

May I add, 2 horsepower of FLYWHEEL FURY!

I'm actually kinda worried this year about randomly exploding throwing mechanisms. If designed incorrectly, flywheels have a nasty tendency to use their energy in a destructive manner. We recently found this out for real, after yesterday, watching a 1 lbs flywheel literally float on a concrete floor. Luckily, it floated, upright and spinning, away from us, behind some drawers, where it made indescriminate banging noises as it came to a stop from several thousand RPM. Scary. FIRST has never dealt with this sort of stored energy being so easily released in such a small package.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Our defense strategy will be the hardest posiible play this year.
I won't say what it is because noone else here on CD has thought of it.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I see lots of potential for secondary functions here.

If you get a big flywheel spinning inside your robot, it will be impossible for it to tip over! :ahh:

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

That is a good point... But with a flywheel that big, you won't be manuevering much youself!

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I would say the challenge should be to be able to put all ten balls in the center goal and make pizza for everyone (or some kind of food). :P

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Yeah, the goal may be thirty inches wide, but with three 'bots shooting at the center goal I'd be surprised if even fifteen of the balls didn't hit another ball and miss. I say theres no way to get a hundred in autonomous.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Here's my evil thought for what it's worth.

Autonomous mode Shoot 10 balls in the center goal, tracking with the cam while move across the entire width of the field.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

The hardest possible task in this year's game? I would really love to see at least one team that can SMOOTHLY and ERRORLESSly 1. gather poof balls, 2. store them in a bank of some sort, 3. load some in the launching mechanism AND into the lower goals, 4. Aim for the Center high goal, and 5. Fire and hit nothing but air in between the 30 inch circle.

Other than that, perhaps the other hard but possible task is to find a winning strategy to play all defense.

In the three years I've been a member of FRC, this is the first game that I have had headaches thinking up solutions. :eek:

-Joe

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

would this be blowing the balls out of the way with air? we were going to try that until we though about the power requirements...

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

With a fixed angle 'cannon' and the camera used only to aim the robot at the giant 30" hole, you should (if you maximize the height of the cannon and the muzzle velocity) be able to hit with all 10 balls. The only problem will be getting your throwing mechanism up to speed with enough sustainable momentum to complete firing in 10 seconds.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

a wise man once told me:

"Dude, don't get to head of yourself" -some wise man

You don't have to do the center goal, and call it hard, getting those corner goals is hard enough too. Getting the ball is hard too. THIS WHOLE GAME IS A CHALLENGE, IT'S NOT EASY! :)

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I'd be interested to see a balled launched and then knocked out of the air by the opponents ball, intentionally.

If a team could figure out Star Wars I would be pretty impressed.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I don't know how quickly you could shoot balls, it really depends on the launcher you used, and how quickly you could feed balls to it. I think it's possible to get all 10 balls from 1 robot in the center, I think it would be difficult to get balls from multiple robots into that center goal. You would have to work an autonomous with them so that one would fire right after the other ended, or so the balls would "alternate" landing in the goal.

Since we're combining auton and normal challenges, here; a robot that can score all 10 balls into the center in autonomous (without dead reckoning), and that can shoot a ball into the center goal while moving from behind the half-court line during human controlled mode. I've calculated that a shooter at the 5' height limit firing balls at 12 m/s at a 45 degree angle could hit the target from roughly 44', neglecting resistance forces. Air resistance will decrease this, but I think you won't lose 10' due to it, so a half-court shot is do-able.

For more difficulty, it should be able to make a certain percentage of its shots as well.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

We attempted this and did a few tests. An electric leaf blower could do it, but only if we tracked the ball on it's course (not very easy). Also, the power requirments were too great (it's only one 12V battery)
We also tried a garbage can Airzooka, but it didn't provide enough air power to reasonably and acurately push a ball, not to mention timing would be a real pain...all in all, we determined the concept was not reliable or feasible enough to merit basing a robot on it. If any other team can do this, MAJOR PROPS!!!

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

That would be quite an impressive defensive robot. If anyone does that I'm going to want to see that in action.

To change some of my last post, the shot from behind half-court would not be required to use the camera, because I don't know if it has enough range to see the target (accurately) from long distances.

I also want to see one alliance score all 30 balls they start with into any combination of the goals during autonomous, as long as all 30 balls score.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

According to one of the people from IFI up at the Kickoff in Manchester New Hampshire, the camera should be able to see full field, like from one set of goals to the other.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

The one ball that came in our kit was, of all colors, "vision-tetra green" (that's what we call anything of that color). Ironically, at kickoff, one of our mentors was joking about tracking the balls and shooting them down using the camera. We might mess around with it if we somehow find some free time during build season.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I think the pasty resistance for this game will be a bot that continuously tracks the goal with its launcher

and IF the goal is within range AND IF a ball is in the bot, it fires all by itself

this means all the driver has to do is drive the bot over balls to pick them up, then drive the bot within range of the goal. The bot does the rest.

If it picks up balls while its in range of the goal it fires them immediately.

That would be awesome

but not easy!

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Perhaps a total round score of 125 points, it would be very hard to accomplish.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

so you pack a flashlight and a can of Spam and pick them up at the regional

WC

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Does anyone else find it disturbing that they are suddenly sold out? :)

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

We're working on it... :rolleyes:

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

What about making all 10 shots in autonomous mode without leaving the robot's starting square?



I overheard Dean telling Woodie what two mentors were discussing at kickoff...

"Okay, I'll build a robot that your robot can drive up on, and you can score all the balls into the center goal without going over the 60'' mark."

Sounds quite infeasible, and this would only work if one of the two teams were choosing alliances.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

There goes that Voltron idea from last night. ;)

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

infeasible ... maybe ...

But check out this video of two ROOKIES in our VERY FIRST MATCH taking up only one space on the ramp (we're on the bottom) in the 2003 game "Stack Attack".

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

That's pretty cool Stu, don't think I saw that one.

Don't forget about this guy

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

how about picking up your opponents robot, full of balls

and stuffing it into your goal?

Id pay real money to see that!

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I think the beez kneez would be a holonomic-drive bot that uses the camera to constantly track the target light and always faces that direction, with constantly-updated fire solutions feeding to the launcher. Hitting the target while moving parallel to the plane of the goal is the pasty resistance.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

As I read the rule, this is already illegal.

It doesn't say the robot can't be taller than 60", it says the robot can't extend more than 60" over the floor or platform. If it got there by climbing on top of another robot, hasn't it "extended" itself over 60 inches?

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

no, the top robot is still the same size.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I'd like to be able to agree with you Ken (especially considering the video I linked to a few posts ago) but I think you should re-read the rule carefully. I suspect the GDC worded it that way for a reason. I would say this one has to wait for an official Q/A ruling ...

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

The size of the robot is not what counts for the height rule.
If you climb on another robot and end up more than five feet high (except for the flag), you incur the penalty.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Okay, another question. While I believe that standing on top of a robot to score would be against the rules, merely riding up over another robot during a pushing match would fulfill the part of <G16> right?

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I would be inclined to agree, but I think these are the types of interpretation questions that need official Q&A responses. We can discuss this till we are blue in the face (as it appears I already have) but it won't mean anything until we get the "official" ruling.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I think its risky to read things into the rules that are not there. In this case Im not talking about the difficultys of technical writing.

Extend means extend. If I say I can extend my head so I am 8 feet tall, then I stand on a ladder, you will laugh at me.

If FIRST means that no robot shall break the horizontal plane X feet above the floor for any reason, then they would have said that.

If you are not allowed to extend, that does not mean you cannot jump, hop, float, fly, toss a ball in the air, send up a blast of air.... or climb

adding (what is not there) to the rules will limit the creativity of the teams coming up with unique ideas.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I totally agree (with your first sentence). While I am inclined to agree that the restriction should be on Robot size, I would prefer to wait for a clarification from Q&A. It seems strange to me that the floor and platform was referenced ("Maximum Height - A ROBOT may not extend above 60” above the floor or the ALLIANCE PLATFORM in a stable configuration at any time during a match...") as opposed to just stating the maximum height OF THE ROBOT cannot exceed 60".

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

To make all ten balls from autonmous mode without moving your robot from the initial position into the top green goal for 30 points should be this year's challenge, 30 feet at a maximum speed of 25mph of so, with it being 8 feet 6 inches or so in the middle of that ring, can't wait for a great year, see all of you who are going to the UTC, can't miss me, i'll be the one sticking out of the crowd.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

In my opinion, it is impossible to score 10 balls in 10 sec. For a ball to be scored, it must exit the chute: "<G05> In order for a ball to score, it must enter the goal and exit via the exit chute..." this takes anywhere between 1 and 3 sec. (with multiple balls).

This leaves you with 7 seconds to shoot all of the balls (7/10ths of a sec. per ball). To shoot more than one ball per second using a CIM to drive two 8" wheels a few thousand rpm a flywheel is required. To bring your shooter up to speed it takes around 3 seconds.

The final total is 4-6 seconds to shoot 10 balls (2/5-3/5ths of a sec. per ball). Anyone who can shoot and score all 10 balls in 4 seconds autonomously deserves more than an award.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

FIRS answered a question in the Q & A stating that a ball will be scored in the center goal as long as it left the robot before time expired, just like a buzzer half-court shot in basketball (this only applies to the center goal, corner goals will be shut off as soon as time expires). So you have 7 seconds subtracting the ramp-up.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

shooting on the run

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

TO shoot the 10 allowed balls at the beginning of the autonomous period all in the center goal in the allowed time limit.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Why would you need to "find and lock onto your target" at match start? All distances and angles are perfectly known to you, unless you had a launcher tilt system that couldn't hold its preset angle when its drive motor was disabled.

If you had a repeatable method of setting your robot's orientation and launcher tilt angle in the starting box, I imagine your only limitation would be the time it takes to spin up your launcher to launch velocity.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Launch 10 balls into the center goal from the starting position in autonomous.

That's right, no moving of the chassis. Just aim and fire.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

How about one bot collecting and holding all 80 balls on the playing field? That would be quite interesting to see.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

The problem with that is since any ball you score is up to the opponent to put back into the field, the only real feasible way to achieve that is you don't score any points after autonomous mode. And by the time you have all the balls, probably around the last quarter if ever, they will just put all three of their robots defending your one robot that has balls, making it impossible to score those 80 balls, which most likely means you lose :(

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

As the weeks go by and the physics of the game sinks in, I think the real magic trick is going to be finding a way to guard or block the center goal, parked infront of it (not chasing robots around to block their shots).

I notice the rules say you cannot extend in a 'stable configuration' above a certain height - does that mean you could take swipes at a ball in flight, if your flailing arms are not 'stable' ?

Could you have a bot with a big sticky tongue that shoots out and snatches balls out of the air, like flys?

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I think the rule means that its ok if you exceed the height limit if an accident happens and your robot flips over and the diagonals goes over 5 feet.

Other wise the height rule pretty much says you cannot block the goal or other robot's firing mechanism. Well unless their shooter is not placed at the max height, which I doubt since that would make their shooter very easily blocked.

The closest thing I've heard about interfering with a shooter other than just plain collision of robots is using pneumatics to blow air in front of opponent shooters to offset the flight path of the launched ball. However I'm not entirely sure this is legal so you probably should check on that. Also since you have to take time to recompress air it will not be consistant.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Don't forget that the hypothetical robot holding all 80 balls has 2 partner robots to help "move" the opposing robots out of the way. Certainly you have a valid point, but I do believe that hording and scoring late is going to be a powerful strategy.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Impossible, eh? Too long to spin up? Well then, I'll make a 2 Big CIM/2 Little CIM/2 FP/Van Door/Globe/Window Motor Shooter that can spin up in .1 seconds and shoot 60 balls per second!

I guess the point I'm trying to make is nothing is impossible. Its just.. some thing are very hard.

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Get most points in both center and corner goals. :eek: don't think anyone can multitask that much

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

How about scoring five out of ten balls in the center goal from the starting position during autonomous

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

What about scoring all 10? I think its possible, yet difficult...for some....

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

how about shooting while moving?

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Ah that's fairly simple

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

well yea we can do it...but i mean shooting all 10 balls in autonomous while moving and getting atleast most of them in

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

Definitially a trick :]

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

I think the autonomous is the hardest part of this years competition because of the alloted time. its only 10 second. fortunately at team 815 we have 15 different autonomous codes

Re: What is the hardest (yet possible) task in this year's game?
 

this seems slightly pointless