can the game flag be used?
 

the game flag can be mounted on top of the 60" robot. can we use this flag to defend against balls in the center goal? i mean the flag can extend up to the hoop so can we block the hoop with the flag?

also is there a limit on where we can put the flag?

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

From the manual (darn good reading):

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

the robot limit is 60" and the flagpole top must be 72"?

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

Its right there in the rule that Billfred posted. If you have a robot that is in-fact 60" tall then yes, the top of your flag must be 72" from the ground. If your robot is not 60" tall then your flag may be at any height as long as it is under 72" from the ground and over 12" (+/- 1/2")from the highest point on your robot.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

No. You can't use anything over 5 ft. to block. Doing so is a 5pt penalty per occurrence or shot blocked, whicheveer is greater.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

Can you cite a rule on that please?

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

<G16> Maximum Height - A ROBOT may not extend above 60” above the floor or the ALLIANCE
PLATFORM in a stable configuration at any time during a match. Each violation shall result in a penalty
of 5 points per occurrence or 5 points per ball shot or ball blocked during the occurrence, whichever is
greater.The one
exception to the height restriction is provided in rule <R13> (flag rule).

So, my interpretation of this is that you will not receive a penalty for being over 60" so long as it's just the flag, however, if the flag blocks a shot, it's questionable as to whether or not you'd be penalized.

At any rate, the flag is what, a 1/4" stick or something? 3/8"? That's not exactly a large target. You'd have to have incredible precision to line the flag up properly to perfectly intercept the trajectory of an opponent's ball.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

1/4" OD PVC with a bycycle flag on top. (<R13> has the details on mounting tube, placement, and all the other annoying little details.)

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

A quick question on R13:
the last line reads:
The flagpole receptacle must be statically mounted, and not
articulated or actuated.

Is this to mean that the flag must be mounted on the base of the robot? Or can we mount it to our ball turret that is going to rotate around as long as the receptacle itself is staticly mounted?

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

I would think that this would not be allowed, which is unfortunate because that makes it much more difficult to have a 360 degree rotating turret. You'd have to make it pivot around the flag pole.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

A rotating turret will most likely not extend to the corners of the legal size of the robot because most people will have it on a circular rotating base. So you could put the flag in the corner of the robot. This would cause your launcher to have a small range in which it could not be used due to the flag being in the way.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

With the flag being as small as it is. The chances of blocking or even interfering with a shot on the high goal is minimal, so if it does happen it will most likely be by accident, so hopefully the refs will not penalize. This is at least my interpretation.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

I'm curious about that. Let's say this:

Robot A is on offense, it lines up with the goal and pops off a ball at 12m/s or so at the goal, in the middle of its perfect arc a defensive robot drives by, with no intent to block at all, but the ball hits the flag, do they get a penalty? What if there's obvious intent to block? What if it's a robot from their alliance?

Could be interesting...

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

I really dont think that a ball blocked by a flag will be called for a penalty. If it happens more than once or twice, maybe they'll make a rule about it, but I think that it won't really happen much.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

I highly doubt the flag pole will be capable of blocking a shot. Bicycle flags are quite weak and flexible, and I doubt that they will be able to severly alter a shot. And if they could, Id be more worried about my own flag blocking my shot than someone elses (if you have a turret system, or place it in a really bad spot).

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

One stick can't take all the pressure, but a bundle can..

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

what i meant was parking the robot in front of the center goal for defense against the balls. although i agree that it is very unethical i think of one thing:
a center block is good defense

for this reason i thought it would be cool

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

I understood what you meant, but I highly doubt it would work. The flag poles are small and flexible enough that a ball would just power right through them.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

I don't know if this'll matter much. Seeing this thread FIRST might add a rule revision which bans intentional center goal blocking with the flag.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

We were already planning that, the problem comes in where we are looking at our launcher being roughly 4' feet high, so we have to rase our flag mount up atleast 2 feet to make the top of the flag clear the top of our bot. Not hard, just alot of extra stuff for a flag.

You can, but that dosn't mean you can.
 

You need to read ALL the rules COMPLETELY to understand them.

Empahsis mine. Since <R13> provides the exception, lets go take a look!
Ah ha! The flagpole receptacle needs to be mounted such that the flag is 12" taller then the rest of the robot, but less than 6 feet from the ground. So if you make a 5 foot tall robot, the flag MUST be mounted so that the top of the flagpole is at 6 feet. Since the flag is exempt from the height rule, you will not be penalized for it being above 6 feet. No penalty, block away!

Wetzel

Re: You can, but that dosn't mean you can.
 

Wetzel, while the rules you've quoted definitely show that you won't be penalized for your flag going over 5 feet (something we've already known), they don't help any to determine whether or not you receive a penalty for blocking balls with it (something I still think is pure fantasy, and not even worth the time everyone has spent here thinking about it).

If people are actually worried about this, it obviously needs to be submitted to the Q&A forums to receive a definitive answer.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

I'm with Wetzel. But it will be impossible to park in front of the goal and block though. You would need to be at the front of the platform to make any impact.

Allowed to and able are diffrent.
 

Cory, you only get penalized for blocking a ball if you are violating the height rule. Since we both agree that the flag does not violate the height rule, we should agree that you won't be penalized for something that doesn't violate a rule.

Wetzel

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

so in other words no you probably wont get penalized for the game flag blocking a ball.

however the flag probably wont do much as it would snap from the pressure

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

A couple things to consider...
gondorf, you underestimate PVC's bendability. It won't break with a ball hitting it. If it does, someone is probably penalized for exceeding the muzzle velocity.

Wetzel, <G16> says that any robot extending a blocking device (over 5 ft tall) in front of the center goal will be DQ'd. Plain enough, except that the flag is an exception to the height limit. So, the only question here is: Is the flag a blocking device? I predict that Q&A will have to think this over for a while after someone submits the question. (And by the way, you will be penalized if the top of the flag is over 6 feet from the floor, according to the rules.)

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

its hard to believe that any of you have been to a competition before.!
you have a 1/4 inch rod and a 7 inch ball. 5 robots tangling with each other. drivers with so much adrenalin that they can barely hold still. and you think that a robot can be positioned to block a 30 inch wide goal.!!
statistically this is a very small event. if you base strategy on this event, you will lose quickly.

jerry w

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

I wish they just stuck to LEDs. This whole flag thing is confusing.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

The LEDs were hard to see, and some teams didn't even hook them up or lacked the "back-up battery" to power them. I personally liked the old lights we used, but those drew alot of power.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

I loved the flashing spinner lights, those were great, but the shields on them also broke very easily whenever hit by any scoring object pretty much. In 03 after the LI regional was done on Friday they opened up the mesh ramp and had people crawl under it to vacuum and clean out the debris. It was fun to collect bits and pieces of light shield, I think I came close to being able to make an entire shield just out of parts that fell below the grates.

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

I think that it's good for FIRST to move away from the lights, however cool they may be, just from a specator standpoint. From way up in the bleachers, it can take a good 3 seconds to determine which robot is on which team. In a match that lasts 2:10, that's a large chunk of time. They're also hard to see in peripheral vision.
I also believe, however, that the bicycle flags aren't the best method. The restricted mounting procedure means a lot of teams will have problems incorportating it into their design. There's probably a better way, but I sure haven't of it....

Re: can the game flag be used?
 

Here is the official answer from FIRST Q/A about using the game flag to block balls: http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread.php?t=344