Chief Delphi - height violation while extending

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gondorf

19-01-2006 17:27

height violation while extending

will a height violation while extending the robot to the 5' size count against the team?

i mean like if you have a folded robot and when it unfolds the top goes above the 5' size in a diagonal position while falling, would we lose points?

i_am_Doug

19-01-2006 17:30

Re: height violation while extending

Do you mean the size check or when the game starts?

gondorf

19-01-2006 17:32

Re: height violation while extending

what I mean is that say you have a robot that is 5 feet tall. however it is set so that the top will be pushed up and over on the sides to make it into a 5' size on all sides. when it folds out if the tops of the falling parts temporarily go over 5' to allow for diagonal falling. should this count as a height violation?

i mean when the match starts

focus fanatic

19-01-2006 17:33

Re: height violation while extending

i dont think you should be punished but only if ur under the 5' limit once finished unfolding

i_am_Doug

19-01-2006 17:36

Re: height violation while extending

No, I wouldn't think so. You would problem have better luck asking a seasoned ref.

Stephen Kowski

19-01-2006 17:38

Re: height violation while extending

Quote:

Originally Posted by gondorf

i believe intentionally falling over (a la 67) is illegal in this years game

Quote:

<G17> ROBOT Orientation - ROBOTs must maintain their vertical orientation with respect to their starting position throughout the match. ROBOTs may not intentionally tip over onto one of their initially vertical sides and operate with this side parallel to the ground. If a ROBOT is accidentally or intentionally tipped over onto its side, it cannot score any balls in any goals from this orientation.

gondorf

19-01-2006 17:43

Re: height violation while extending

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Kowski

i believe intentionally falling over (a la 67) is illegal in this years game

no that isnt what i mean at all. i mean having the wheels on the bottom but having it 5'tall at the beginning but after the match starts sort of spreading out so instead of being 28*38*60 you are 60*60*36 or something. using a motor or pneumatics mechanism to shove the top out.

actually it is sort of falling inside the robot and spreading out without any wheels ever leaving the ground.

just think of jelly. it is tall then when it sits it spreads out into a shorter but wider shape

edit: none of the ones extending out are vertical at the beginning. all the sides that are on the outside when extended are internal at the beginning.

sounds sort of like turning your robot inside out and flattening it like a pancake.

Stephen Kowski

19-01-2006 17:46

Re: height violation while extending

i would run it by the GDC on the FIRST Q&A, but i would imagine they are probably not going to allow it (but that is just a guess on my part)

Dave Flowerday

19-01-2006 17:48

Re: height violation while extending

Quote:

R08: Once a match begins, robots may extend horizontally beyond the 28-inch x 38-inch starting size under their own power, up to a limit of 60 inches in either horizontal cardinal dimension. The robot may not exceed the 60-inch height restriction at any time during the match. In other words, after the start of the match the robot may expand up to a maximum volume of 60 inches by 60 inches by 60 inches. The one exception to the height restriction is provided in Rule <R13>. Any restraints (elastic bands, springs, etc.) that are used to maintain starting size must remain attached to the robot for the duration of the match.

(emphasis mine)

At no point may your robot be taller than 60". If you have a mechanism that causes your robot to be taller than that temporarily while you expand, then I think it's pretty clear that it would violate R08.

Lil' Lavery

19-01-2006 22:26

Re: height violation while extending

This issue is currently a "grey issue" as defined purely by the rulebook.

Quote:

<G16> Maximum Height - A ROBOT may not extend above 60” above the floor or the ALLIANCE
PLATFORM in a stable configuration at any time during a match. Each violation shall result in a penalty
of 5 points per occurrence or 5 points per ball shot or ball blocked during the occurrence, whichever is
greater. ROBOTs designed to violate this rule are not allowed. For example, a ROBOT that extends a
blocking device in front of the center goal will be disqualified. Transient conditions that may cause a
diagonal dimension of the robot to momentarily exceed the 60” height restriction – such as during a tipover
or when climbing onto the ALLIANCE PLATFORM – are not subject to this rule. The one
exception to the height restriction is provided in rule <R13> (flag rule).

What is defined as a "Stable Configuation"?
Is that just when you are being acted upon by other robots, field, or game elements that you are unstable, or are unfolding or midway points of motion unstable?
This is definately a question for the Q&A

Dave Flowerday

19-01-2006 23:03

Re: height violation while extending

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

This issue is currently a "grey issue" as defined purely by the rulebook.

Interesting. R8 seems to clearly disallow any extension above 60" but G16 makes it appear that it's OK at certain times. However, I think the last sentence of G16 reveals the intent: that if your robot is tilted (because of climbing the ramp, or if it's falling over) then it is not in a stable configuration and the 60" rule does not apply. It doesn't seem to me like it was meant for allowing items on the robot that are designed to be above 60" temporarily, but that's just my interpretation. As always, the GDC interpretation is the only one that matters :)

dlavery

19-01-2006 23:07

Re: height violation while extending

Quote:

<G16> Maximum Height - A ROBOT may not extend above 60” above the floor or the ALLIANCE PLATFORM in a stable configuration at any time during a match. Each violation shall result in a penalty of 5 points per occurrence or 5 points per ball shot or ball blocked during the occurrence, whichever is greater. ROBOTs designed to violate this rule are not allowed. For example, a ROBOT that extends a blocking device in front of the center goal will be disqualified. Transient conditions that may cause a diagonal dimension of the robot to momentarily exceed the 60” height restriction – such as during a tipover or when climbing onto the ALLIANCE PLATFORM – are not subject to this rule. The one exception to the height restriction is provided in rule <R13> (flag rule).

The bolded section is the key. If the extension is DESIGNED to exceed the 60" height limit while it deploys, then count on racking up those violation points every match. Since the intial problem statement above indicates that this is the case ("it is set so that the top will be pushed up and over on the sides to make it into a 5' size on all sides. When it folds out if the tops of the falling parts temporarily go over 5' to allow for diagonal falling.") it would seem a safe bet that this will be considered a violation.

-dave

Jeremiah Johnson

19-01-2006 23:51

Re: height violation while extending

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlavery

This is exactly what I was thinking. My suggestion would be to design away from anything that could potentially break the 60" plane or make the extension short enough or at a lesser degree that it would not break the plane. But then again... is it stable as it moves up and out?

Taylor

20-01-2006 08:33

Re: height violation while extending

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budda648

I interpret the rule and the "stable" terminology as meaning controlled. If the robot is moving parts on its own and breaks the 60" plane, that would be controlled movement and as part of the design of the robot, the 60" plane is broken, which results in a penalty. "Unstable", in my eyes, is an instance in which an external force is acting on the robot (another robot, a game piece) and causing it to change its orientation. So, the short answer is yes, if at any time during the match a robot exceeds 60" UNLESS it is caused by an external force, there should be a penalty. The thing about it is the refs would have to have a trained eye to look out for these things, and some infractions may not be caught. I look for the GP in each team to make sure the robot and its design don't break the rules.

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