I hate to come down on people but recently i have been seeing more and more people answering questions like:

"i think that is correct but i am not sure"
"I am pretty sure you would be fine with that"


Those posts are useless and potentially harmful.

In a perfect world everyone would read the rules and search before they post but i have come to accept the fact that doesn't happen, but the biggest problem i see now is people giving wrong information in posts. Answering questions from what they think they know or from a previous year. So i ask you all if you don't know the answer for sure please just don't post. There are some teams out there that will take everything written on CD as the truth and this could seriously affect their season, if they never follow up on the answer received here.

Here is my suggestion: If someone posts a question that is in the rules, directly quote the rule. If you can't do that or can't find the exact rule DON'T POST.

example:
Question: "Can we use 4 small CIM motors?"

Answer: " yes you can because of rule <R43>, Teams may utilize one or two additional small CIM motors (part #FR801-001) in addition to those provided in the kit of parts. This means that you may use up to four, and no more, small CIM motors on the robot."

Thank you all for your time and hopefully you will heed my recommendation.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Hey, this should be a sticky!

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

One word for Greg... Amen.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Listen to Greg, or his battle bot will come after you. I can't agree more we just want to know whats right and whats wrong, rules have no grey area, and any of the Refs and Inspectors will tell you that.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

This Year seams like the most of these etiquette posts. Thank you to all the mods and other people writing these posts! Keep up the good work!

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Greg,
I think you've got a point here, but I'm really not positive.

-JV

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

uHMMMM! Please search before you post:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...threadid=42239

:rolleyes:

"I Kid! I Kid!" (Triumph the Insult Comic Dog voice)

seriously just joking (looks to window for ChiefDelphi etiquette swat team) ... you beat her to it by 6 minutes


...

(puts on negative reputation Kevlar vest)

Better to let someone know that you are not 100% positive about the answer you are giving them, then to give them an answer that you think is 100% correct and you turn out to be wrong (as that could be far more harmful).

Just my $0.02.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Not really. His (entirely valid) point is that it's better to just not post at all.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Sciencenerd senses a certain... irony in this post. :)

But I agree with Greg. If you can't cite your sources, you don't know it.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

thanks for the answer to my question from another thread. i agree with you man. all the way. no maybes ever.

hey greg, when you coming to visit 340?

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

I agree partly, but half an answer might be better and more useful than no answer if nobody is 100% sure.

It is a problem if someone says that they're sure but they really aren't. As long as the poster says that they're not sure, the asker can be wary of that and will have a place to start.

The right to be helpful, How ever you can be.
 

Very Much in agreement with you. I see what this thread is about often around here in CD, but that in of itself is not enough for me to want to impose any set of rules on anyones answers or questions on CD because no one is paid to give anyone great answers here, CD isn't Customer Support its created by people willing to give there time and talent to further the cause of FIRST. whether its because you read the manual but cant quote it so you tell them " Yeah you can use them.. but I'm 89% sure so check the manual too!" or if they want to try something new and wacky that you might have seen before or never thought of so you give them your opinions " Sure, The Hover Craft will work but it seems in your setup someone will die before it gets off the ground". Examples of not 100% Great Answers. But if theres anything you would want to come away with after reading the CD forums shouldn't be "I Wish there was Less Spamming" but instead " People Try to Help when they can, wow :) )

as for Information that may result in harmful or misleading, Insecurity in an answer is its own disclaimer. Start to worry when people give you the wrong answer on Purpose!

-Osc

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Osc,
I wish I could agree with you but...
Many of those that are posting questions here have exhausted their ability to find the answer somewhere else. In many cases they are looking for quick answers that support their own thinking or interpretation. When the first answer that appears to be in agreement shows up, they stop reading the thread or ignore all other posts that have the answer. In the years that the moderators have been watching the forums I can tell you of many incidents were the answers were not only misleading but downright harmful if implemented. For team members who have not made themselves familiar with reading the rule book or getting a team member to post the question on the Q&A, the answer provided here may get implemented to the detriment of the team. I am particularly vigilant of false beliefs showing up in the motor, electrical or technical forums as these tend to produce the greatest effect on teams and robots. However skilled we are at watching the answers, we are all working on teams and have other interests that may keep us from seeing a post that has received 20 replies in an hour, and all of them untrue.
For a real world example, a poster of several years ago specified that a 50 amp charger not only charged the battery faster, but that it was completely safe. He went on to state that it was allowed by FIRST and that his team had used it for years without any damage or ill effects on the battery. His signature was "electrical engineer". What this post was, in fact, was a young student in his first year on the team after a few days on the electrical sub team, who had heard something about 50 amp charging and filling in the blanks assumed it referred to his teams charger. Readers of that post immediately began ordering 50 amp chargers and some went out and purchased them that same day. All of this took place before a moderator was able to check out the post. Then, as now, 6 amp charging is the max allowed. Any current higher than 6 amps will damage the battery and 50 amps will likely result in battery damage or explosion. Not only were the higher current chargers not allowed, the rulebook specified that only the provided KOP charger could be used. Thankfully that charger did not end up at a regional event where an explosive battery could have harmed other students or caused a fire in the pits. If you don't know specifics hold off posting until a knowledgeable person can respond. If you are only vaguely familiar with the rule book, state "Rule Rxx states ... but I am unsure whether that fits your situation" or "That has been answered in the Q&A" and give the link.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Jumping into the fray of public, I'll add my own, mostly counter to what is posted here.

Though I may not have extensive CD experience, I have used forums quite a lot for looking up information for various purposes. Part of the hard part of using them is (no offense) that any idiot with an internet connection can post in them. This is just what forums are. There are various systems (such as reputation on CD) that help to determine how knowledgeable someone in the community is. However, the bottom line is that your results when searching a forum will be only slightly better than your results using a "poll-your-audience" method on Millionaire. Again, that's just a fact of forums.

When people post things saying, "I think you can use 4 CIM motors but I'm not sure" there is some information that can be gleaned out of that. Smart forum usage means that you take everything with a grain of salt. However, if everyone says "I think (x) but I'm not sure" then they are probably right.

Everyone is free to pay very close attention to these types of posts or ignore them completely, as they please. It's our job as responsible and intelligent forum users to pick the good from the bad and base it around our own knowledge.

If someone were to ask an incredibly obscure rules question, especially if it were (to a certain extent) interpretable, and only people who were absolutely sure posted a response, that would not be as helpful as a general concensus from the community as a whole.

Thanks

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Go aaeamdar!!!!!

You are absolutly right. If you only want perfect responses, you aren't going to get any, because no one wants to look in the rules for each and every thing. People have the right to post how they want, and you shouldn't restrict them.

Also note that not everyone is perfect, and this definetly isn't a perfect world.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

well im pretty sure about that but i could be wrong but who cares its for ppl posting advice

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

HI im sorry and i do agree with you when i posted my last post i was just jokeing around and your right if you arent going to help then you shouldnt post anything up. If you can forgive me i would like to ask for your help and can you give me a positive reputation only if u forgive me.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

forget about that reputation thing u dont have to

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

im posting to everyone because i was kinda of rude before so just to everyone

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

I would love to agree with you on this but life is full of uncertainties its not very often we can be certain of anything because things can change very quickly that is life we can be certain of 2 things the past and the present but the future is always uncertain. so there is my 1/50th of a dollar

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

I use "I think" or "I'm pretty sure" to cover my butt... I might say "I think that you can have a battery on your robot" even though I am very well sure that you can just to make sure that I don't have to eat my words later.

I have also been known to use these phrases to add a certain feeling to my post, such as sarcasm. ( I think that I do anyway )

And... People are just trying to help, if they give a stupid answer, take it up with them on an individual basis and don't yell at everybody, especially if their apprehensive answer actually did help.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Greg is right, if someone posts an answer to a specific question, then that person should make sure that their answer is right with no doubts :)

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Is this the fault of the poster or everyone who read the post in CD and took it for "fact" without checking for themselves first? The only real way to deal with misinformation on CD is to stop answering questions completely and just redirect everyone to the Q&A forum on usfirst.org, or having every post vetted and fact checking by mods before posting. Neither of these are good options. Personally, the public needs to take EVERY post on CD with a grain of salt. Read everything you want. Weigh the information and make your own judgment. If anyone makes a design choice on their robot based solely on a post/posts on CD and they run afoul of the official rules, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

Wilson,
That is an easy statement to make but, there are many rookies who read posts here and have no experience as to who or what to believe. I, for one, want those people to get good information early in the process. Many of them may not be aware of the Q&A or the fact that the rules are updated regularly (Robot rules are up to Rev E as of this writing), or the fact that Team updates are issued at least twice a week. I can tell you from experience (and I will predict the same thing will happen this season), that teams will show up to their first competition without the Rockwell Power block, the required flag holder, the only legal bumpers, the diagnostic light and be over size or overweight. If someone told them they didn't need those things and have traveled halfway across the country to their only regional, they are at risk for not being allowed to play. I won't let that happen at a regional that I attend, even as a guest. If we can head off an issue by insuring that the questions answered here are of the highest quality, it is our duty under Gracious Professionalism to do so. If you read many of my posts, I will quote rule, Q&A or Team Update to support the opinion or I will insist the team ask the question of the Q&A. The Q&A is answered by the GDC when signed as such. There is no higher authority. Inspectors, referees, FTAs and teams all operate under their guidance and direction.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

The sheer volume of results that come back from a search is daunting enough to confuse even the smartest of rookie teams. And you have a great point about not knowing the validity of the information. It also brings up the point that some posts that are really old may have better advice than new posts, however the old posts are at the bottom of the search results.

When I began learning pneumatics last summer I searched "pneumatics" and looked in the appropriate forum. I didn't know that a valve was different from a regulator, or anything of the sort and I consider myself to be able to figure anything out. Right now, there is so much information on CD that it's becoming increasingly difficult to sort through, and it took a little luck to find specific information for what I wanted to know.

Perhaps during the 08 offseason we could start organising some pre-set search terms and have any sort of infrastructure setup so that they're easy for a beginner of any topic to find. They could also incorporate common misspellings for words like mecanum.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

To those who have disagreed; try viewing the suggestion from this angle.

If you like to think of CD as a part of preparing students for STEM careers; then Greg's advice needs to made a part of that preparation.

Stopping eager exploration of possibilities is not what he is talking about.

Stopping shy students from finding their confidence and their voice is not what he is talking about.

Quite the opposite. Citing authority and knowing that one has properly researched a topic gives one well-deserved confidence.

STEM careers involve mastering the "First Principles" of math, etc; and then accurately deriving from them correct conclusions that are useful to yourself or your customers.

There is no better time to take that process to heart than the first day that you sit in front of a CD thread and consider posting. Half-baked won't cut it when you are building a dam, a CPU, a baby crib, or a Mars lander. Part of educating everyone using this forum should be that half-baked is nothing to be proud of here either.

It is not OK or good to accept or dismiss as unimportant poor replies in these threads. Authors that need to unlearn poor habits need to receive properly delivered feedback. If the task of delivering the feedback reminds one of cleaning the Augean stables; well that doesn't mean it can be ignored or dismissed; it just means that we need to redouble our efforts as we educate the evolving groups of students and mentors who use this forum.

Review some of Mr Lavery's posts about attention to detail, scholarship, and similar matters - One thing I take away from them is a tone that generally agrees with Greg's.

If you are unsure about an answer or if you would be unable to substantiate it with evidence; then point the questioner to a source you would use to determine the answer. That is both helpful and keeps you from tasting shoe quite so often.

Blake

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

I would have to agree with the adults on this one. Posting messages that are either degrading or not helpful can only harm people. Telling someone they aren't violating a rule just because you are doing the same thing and neither of you looked it up in the rules is bound to get someone or multiples in trouble.

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

A little ironic that your exampe question has the wrong answer....See <R52> you can use 5 CIM motors.:yikes:

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

This thread was started in 2006 when only four (small) CIMs were allowed.

What's with these old threads popping up?

Re: Please Only Answer Questions if you know the Answer!
 

his example question did have the right answer... back in 2006 when it was first posted :)