To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

When I first saw the game this year, I was sure we would have to design around getting up the ramp to be competitive. After all, getting three robots up would get you 25 points (9 high-goal shots!). But the more I think about it, it's really doesn't work out this way strategically.

During the final round, if you are good shooter, you'll want to be firing on your goal (right behind the enemy ramp) right up until the buzzer. It seems as though not going for the ramp would give you considerably more time to score, and it seems as though it wouldn't be too hard to position yourself as to block one of the opposing robots from getting on the ramp while scoring.

The more I think about it, the ramp, much like the lower goals, are rather easy to block, and were probably included in the game to provide rookie scoring options.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

That's the way I see it... my team went with the goal of at least being able to get up if need be, but personally I think that it may be more profitable to keep shooting.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

I think that the following are two distinctly different questions;

1) Should a team get up on the ramp?
2) Should a team be able to get up on the ramp?

We decided early on that we wanted to be able to climb the ramp. How often will we use that capability? That remains to be seen.

Matt B.
Team Phoenix

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

Hasnt anyone else thought of the possibility of shooting into your goal from the ramp?
I sure hope we won't be the only ones... ;)

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

The only problem with this is you're shooting from the OTHER alliance's ramp, so you have to run all the way back at the end. It could help reduce the shooting, but you can't fire until the buzzer this way.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

What i think he means is shooting from your platform (the one you score on for you alliance) to your hoop, which is completely across the field.

If this is right then i do believe it would be rather impossible. Since you can only shoot the ball at 12m/s or ~39ft/sec

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

who said anything about the ball going through the air? bounce shots?
and i htink theres another option of being able to force up another robot. that will bring points too. if some teams will have no capability of going up, maybe another robot can "spot" them

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

Well, from this thread, it appears that bounce shots won't be much of an option. Specifically, note the sentence that says "When a ball drops to the floor, only about 10% of its original height is recovered." You'd have to be throwing a ball at the floor at a lot more than 12 m/s to get it to bounce eight feet high, if only 10% of the height is recovered!

I agree that this year, there may be teams who are only capable of helping push other robots up the ramp, or being pushed up themselves. However, I don't think this is something that particularly has to be designed for, as to push a robot up the ramp really all you need to be able to do is move. In addition, being able to push robots up probably isn't as helpful as being able to ramp yourself, because if you can only push robots up, and assuming there is another robot on your alliance that needs help being pushed up, you are likely to get a maximum of two robots on your alliance platform, whereas if you could ramp yourself then you could push the other robot up, then move onto the ramp yourself, giving you the possibility of getting... 15 more points, I believe it is?

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

The way I see it is that if you build a safe margin of points in the first three periods of the game (hint, hint: win autonomous and enjoy the subsequent advantages ;)), you'll be able to defend with all your three robots, maintaining the point advantage, and you'll be right next to your ramp, while your opponents will have to cross the entire field in the last few seconds of the match.
I believe that situation will be fairly common (so does Car Nack) and those easy 25 points will be very appreciated.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

You'd want to be able to shoot every single ball you're carrying long before the final period is done -- with enough time to get back. If you can reload rapidly enough in that time to add on 5 extra shots, perhaps it's at least OK to do it. But then again if you shoot at all then go back...
Ramping is good because you can always do it. You can't always shoot (no ammo)

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

Keep in mind that denying 25 points to your opponent is just as good as scoring 25 yourself...

:cool:

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

I don't know about that. I'm betting that the "horde and wait" strategy will be the most common winning strategy.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

Exactly!

As far as running out of ammo goes: This game is heavily reliant on human player/driver coordination. It's like playing fetch with a dog... you have to practice throwing them and having the robot run them down quickly (assuming your robot gets them off the floor, if you top load you better have a $@#$@#$@#$@# accurate human player).

This game will be decided almost entirely by auto mode when the competition really heats up.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

There are several factors involved in decided whether or not the ramp is a valuable asset during your match.
First off, do you still have balls loaded to shoot?
Secondly lets once again look at the points involved.
-Each ball through the center goal scores 3 points.
-Each ball through the corner goal scores 1 point.
-1 robot on the ramp is 5 points
-2 robots on the ramp is 10 points
-3 robots is 25 points
-4 robots is 25 points (and a guaranteed of 15 ramp points denied to the opposing alliance)=40 possible points
-5 robots is 25 points (and a guaranteed of 20 ramp points denied to the opposing side)=45 possible points
-6 robots is 25 positive points (and a guaranteed of 25 points denied to the oppossing side)=50 possible points.

Now the defensive points dont mean anything if the 25 points you score don't give you the lead anyway, or the points they score outweigh the 25 points you score. And also obvioulsy size is a huge factor (the most robots I bet anyone will ever see on the ramp is 4, and that will be VERY rare).
The balls are a scoring resource that is replenished (the rate of replenishment is hinged upon your robot design and/or human player skill and the opponents willingness to re-introduce the balls into play). The ramp points are not, you get them once at the end of the match.
If you are down by more than 25 points, the ramp is not an effective option unless you're "throwing in the towel" and just going for RP (and if your down by a 40 point margin or something, or you are being completely denied balls to shoot, that may be a fully acceptable action to take).
Next, examine the actions of your opponent. If they have defensive positioning and are not allowing you to take accurate shots at the goal, why bother? Additionally, if you have defensive positioning, why sacrifice it?
Now, if you have defensive positioning, and they go for their ramp, why not go for yours and effectively nuetralize any offensive ramp points they score (provided your in the lead)?

My last point will be this -> TIME.
Assuming you travel @ 10 fps, and your shooting from in front of their ramp, there are 40 feet to travel before hitting the foot of your ramp. Factoring in getting up the ramp and acceleration it will should take rougly 6 or 7 seconds to get onto your ramp from that position un-obstructed.
If there are 2 other robots on your ramp, your robot would essentially be worth 15 points. That is 5 balls in the center goal. You have a little over a second to fire each ball to normalize the points (assuming you already have the 5 balls loaded and ready). This also means you CANNOT miss a shot.

In short, it's a situational decision that must be made on the fly at the end of the match. How much these situations will arise and the best way to deal with each of them, I will leave to your individual teams to decide (I have my own opinions that are well, my own ;) ).

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

our robot = FAST!

our technique is using a whole new transmission and go really fast twards the ramp.....

ramp + Fast robot = FLYING ROBOT.....


:) i'd hate to be the team under the high goal. robot goes through plexy :)

- JERY!!!!!

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

remember at the kickoff they stated 3 or more robots on the ramp will score 25 points,but they didn't specify who's robot. so if your red you can push one of the blue robots up the ramp and keep them up there. i don't believe there is anything against this.HA HA!

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

You are correct. In fact the pinning rule expliclty allows pinning on the allaince platform. Here is the pinning rule:

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

We thought of that about thirty seconds after seeing the goal that was set up at our kickoff. Maybe no one else noticed! Shhhhh....

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

With the allowed speed FIRST is giving you, which is like 26.8 mph then
this might be hard to fire from your ramp to your goal!!!
I dont know but this is just an opinion!!!

And to get a ball from your ramp to your goal will deffinately need more speed than is allowed!!!

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

I agree with Cassie. I think it would be extremely unlikely that you would be able to shoot from your alliance platform to your opponents goal without violating the muzzle velocity rule. Granted, you could attempt to put a spin on the ball and change the aerodynamics but I think it's unlikely that you will reach 54 feet given the 35 foot reference. For example, the allowed muzzle velocity is 39.4 ft/s, assuming no funny aerodynamics you would have to shoot the ball at about 62 ft/s to hit the goal from the alliance platform.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

Ok, I think I need to clarify something here,
At least two people have posted to this thread assuming we're talking about shooting from our alliance plaform into the opponents goal.
To those of you, I encourage you to re-read the arena section of the manual.
You will notice that your alliances scoring goal lies across the field, while your alliances platform is right in front of your driver station. If you wanted to shoot into the opponent's goal, then you'd need to shoot the hoop right behind your robot.

I agree, its a difficult feat, but we want to see if we cant find a way to do it.
(by staying within the rules)

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

Getting back to the endzone ramp is a tough call this year. Ordinarily, you would be able to scan the field quickly to tell if it advantageous to go back and get the points needed.

2003: You can scan for the number of bins in the scoring zones
2005: Scan the field for triple plays

This year seems to be a lot more tricky. In order to make the call and decide whether to go back or not, it would be very helpful to know your score and your opponent's score. You could argue that you can estimate, I don't know about the rest of you, but I think that 2 mins can go very fast when you are only paying attention to your own robot (which you will really have to). For me, deciding to tell my drivers wheter or not to come back to the endzone for the bonus points will come with experience as I learn the game from on the field.


GO 1403!!!

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

I dont think that is entirely true because we built our ramp last weekend, and it is very steep. If your robot is top heavy, the minute you try to climb the ramp you will turn over. Also, the diamond plate makes it really hard to grip, i think very few teams will actually be able to get up the ramp successfully.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

Isn't it true though that because the score is automated, it will be like a basketball game where there is a "scoreboard" where the score is constantly updating? although it may not be perfectly accurate, the drive team will still be able to have an idea as to what the score is...

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

FIRST has said that the score will be kept in real time, and that if the big screen with the score is not visible to both teams they will set up displays by the alliance stations that they can see with the score. So, it will make last minute point scrambles a bit easier to decide.

I think the ramp is only a worthwhile idea if your alliance can get 3 robots on the platform and your opponents cannot. If your opponents can as well, running back to your own side to get 25 will allow them no hassle in doing the same thing, negating your score. However, if your team can get the 25, and they may only be able to get 5 or 10, it may be a good idea.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

If getting up the ramp is as hard as everybody says it is, then the chance of all three robots getting on the ramp and staying there are slim. Having two alliance partners capable of staying on the ramp could be an enormous advantage, considering the increased points for doing so this year.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

Why? Through my testing/visualization, if you have one robot on the flat part of the ramp, and one determined to get it off, you'll have one heck of a defensive battle, most likely with the robot who was there, still being on the ramp, although being in no position to be in front of the center goal. If you have two robots on the ramp, and any number of robots attempting to get them off, it'll be a waste of time, the two robots on top will remain on top, although spectacular play by the other alliance could change this. With 3 robots on the ramp, there's no point in trying to evict them. Reason being, the ramp is not very big from a turning standpoint. Assuming you drive straight up the ramp, you'll be hard pressed to turn, unless you can do so in within your starting drive base.

Re: To ramp, or not to ramp?
 

Possibly better than having alliance partners who can get on the ramp, is having opponents who cant get off (aka, bottoming them out over the crest).