Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

It seems that many teams (from the teasers they have released) have been sacrificing defensive measures for having a better shooting robot... which then lies my question... do you see your team as a defencive asset and if so, how many robots would you hazard to guess that you could push at once, as pushing robots around is the easiest type of defence. Last years robot we had was pushing 3 robots at once in Waterloo, and this years can out push our last years robot by a long shot. And secondly how well do you think your robot will block?

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

im no in manufacturing, so i cant speak for them..but im a potenial driver, and from driving this thing i know that its really solid and when u want to u can stop anything with it. i know it doesnt have an obvious defensive system, but i gues you could say being a strong and solid robot is a system in its own

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

We have sacrificed some defensive measures on our robot for a more offensive robot. But we still have our counter measures for being pushed around. We don’t want to burn down our battery by trying to push a robot and then try to shoot at the same time. That would be bad. So we came up with a few ways of preventing that. AND PLEASE remember not to be un GP and ram your robot into others. Yes it’s against the rules but it still happens and isn't always called. We had big problems with teams ramming into us last year. But we have found our own little ways of stopping the unstoppable.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

The difference this year is the FIRST has really out-lawed defensive measures, such as wedges, making it much simpler to play defense. Every robot will be a box this year, as long as your CG isn't too bad defense can be played by anyone. I have seen many teams who have decided to use 2 cim motors for their shooter, but a lot are also using the 2-speed AM shifter, which on low gear will provide the same amount of torque (roughly) as a kit gearbox with 2 cim in the AM shifter (considering proper ratios). We are using the AM shifter, and will have a lot more pushing power than last year if we keep 4 CIM on the bottom. but a low CG robot will be much better at defense than a high CG robot with high torque.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

yea ramming was a problem last year...at nationals we were pinned against the wall and being rammed repeatedly and it wasnt called. we finally faked him and got out of there, but there was some damage as a result of it

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

yes ramming is a problem, and we were bullies so to speak last year on the feild, for a little while at least an we are sorry to any team which we caused any extra work. we quickly found ways to be defensive with no team or ref finding any fault in us... we went without penalties in our second compatition as a cause of this.... the biggest thing to remember is that ramming is bad, so since we had the power last year we would go up to a team at a reasonable speed then full power once touching them... this caused no damage in robots and no penalties, also remember 2-3 seconds as a rule of thumb for pinning... just some tips

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

If we play defense, it will be pushing. Most targeting systems wont be able to shoot accurately if thier platform (IE the robot) is being pushed or disturbed while shooting. So they will have to try to get a clear shot, stop to shoot. We may not have the most fancy drive system (matter of fact, its kinda plain) but we will push around most bots this year, especially those holonomic jobbers ;)

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

we have sacrificed some traction for driveability. we will still have a 4 motor 6wd 2 speed drive system though

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

Defence???? Who needs defence with an awesome offence??

LoL...

I think that we will end up just being the tall guy standing in front of you bumping for defence :)

-Pavan

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

our robot can play defense if needed and offense if needed so we are potentially a balanced machine but we are leaning more towards one of the two so time will tell.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

We have found over the years that a robot that maneuvers well usually has an advantage over a slower more powerful one. There will always be some pushing and other defensive stratigies, but a good offense will prevail over a defensive only robot. Our robot this year should be very good offensively and still be able to play defense, after all, just simple blocking will be effective this year. :D

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

Using 4 CIM motors will give you plenty of power to push others, but when faced with another robot with equal power, it comes down to whoever has the best traction. After all, more power does not help without more traction to go with it. However, it will not take much pushing to knock another robot "off target". :D

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

i agree with you it all really depends on the strategies that comes about so some that play offense might end up playing defense and some that want to play defense might play offense so the machine has to be versitile :)

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

Any robot can play a very good defense, even if it doesn't have "defensive measures". Short range pushing has always been allowed by FIRST and that's all you need to get a shooting robot of target. The robot that can plant itself somewhere and can't be moved will have the easiest time at shooting balls in.

Ideally, the best robot would be one that can shoot on the move, its barrel aimed at the goal all the time and adjusted for movement. But due to the not so accurate nature of the camera, this type of tracking system would be incredibly hard to implement. (if a team has achieved this, I appologize for underestimating)

So really, any robot that can move can play defense just as good as any other. Lots of pushing power isn't necessarily important, because all that is required for a robot to miss is a little nudge while shooting. Granted that great pushing power is never bad thing, it's (IMO) not a very integral part of this year's defense on robots.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

This year's game will be a very dynamic one, in which the strategies that you start with will not necessarily be the ones you stick with. Because there are so many different ideas on the best way to actually win, and/or prevent the other alliance from winning, we will see some very interesting strategy this year.

For the past two years, my team has always focused on solid offense. As great as a good defense is, if you can put up six tetras per match, or score twenty poof balls into the center goal in ten seconds, you are at a much better advantage. I love amazing offensive dominations; as the amount of creative engineering and design and thought that goes into them is unbelievable. After all, why are teams like 71 and 111 held in such high regard among the FIRST community?

Defense wins matches. Offense wins competitions. :)

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...8&postcount=41

This was a nutty idea had in the beginning. Longshot at best as stated but a dumbed down version could easily be at home an alliance with 2 Mass Shooters.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

Last year our team perfected the art of being defensive, while still scoring major points. This year our robot is more of a tank and should have twice the torque of last year, so we'll have plenty of pushing power if need be, and the capability of holding around 50 or so balls, so score a few easy points, then push some guys around.

I'm still pushing for the pneumatic lift system. Basically like a car with an air-ride or hydraulic suspension. Build the drivetrain on a small frame, and build the rest of the robot on a seperate frame, over the drivetrain frame, supported by pneumatic cylinders. when you get where you want to be and aim, let the air out of the pneumatics, and set the actual frame down on the ground and pull the wheels off the ground. just be sure not to have the edges tear up the carpet. with all the weight, it would probably be pretty tough to push it a little. I want to build something like this in the offseason this year.


ohhohh i remember i had a picture of a chevy s-10 doing this, on air ride suspension, mono-leafed in the rear. It lays frame an pulls the wheels off the ground. i'll try and post it later tonight or tommorow...i have to find it....

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

Our defense is simply pushing. With our wheels, and our 2 speed, we can race up to an opponent, and push just about anyone across the whole field. If somone is out of range, they can't score, correct?

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

Where's the "We could go either way" option?

we have a multi-speed transmission, and should be able to push fairly easily. I've noticed a number of robots using casters, holonomic or omni wheels, which could prove very easy to push. We intend to test different strategies and go with what works best.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

We will be able to block low shooters, but out emphasis will be on pushing

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

We'll be able to push pretty much anybody... I hope :D and we SHOULD have a functional launcher by ship, So We didn't have to sacrifice anything. At least I don't think we did:rolleyes:

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

We will be able to push anybody in our way.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

Bob can do pretty much anything... we have a strong frame and a strong offense....so pretty much bob is the man!!

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

By the results of the poll thus far it seems as though there are allot of teams out there that are unstoppable. Well I guess we will just have to wait and see how many of these robots can actually live up to their names. Torque is nothing without traction. I just don't see the necessity of being uber defensive. My belief is that offense wins championships, defense wins matches. A defensive robot can hound a robot all it wants, but if that robot can score one point than that is all that is needed to win.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

We chose to sacrifice a ball shooter for a good, strong drive train.

On the pushing more than one bot at once, I reckon that if they (being the said bots to be pushed) had omni wheel drives, then we could push all of them without any problem. The bots with drive trains similar to ours are going to be a little more difficult.

On the blocking, our bot isn't going to be tall enough to stop a shot from a robot with a five-foot tall shooter, but they might have problems getting off an accurate shot while they are being shoved around the field. :D

That said, I think that we are going to live up to our traditional reputation of being "defensive specialists" Anyone remember last year's model with the wheelie bars that <accidently, sort of> served as wedges? (we didn't design them for that, I promise.) :rolleyes:

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

How can a majority of the teams have a transmission with above-average pushing power? :confused:

It's like the statistic that says a majority of drivers [for cars and trucks] think that they are above-average drivers. :confused:

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

oh man, a robot that lays frame. us minitruckers will LOVE to see this. a couple titanium dragblocks and then you'd have a LOT of fun at night too.
monoleafed air ride is bad. nice 5links and stuff is mucho better for the truck.
for pics of s10s dragging and laying just browse the s10forum.com

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

well what is considered "average pushing power"? i think a lot of teams (including mine) overestimate the amount of actual power their drivetrain has, and that is responsible for the statistic

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

would winning a pushing match against the year's before, which happened to be unbeatable in puching matches overestimating... what I am getting at is test on how well it does against previous years (unless you are a rookie team) it will give you a general idea of greatness

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

Excellent standard. unless the challenger has a really weak drivetrain, you should be able to get a reasonable idea of how good it is.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

with the profusion of high traction wheels and two speed transmissions, i expect that there's a pretty good chance that the opponent's robot will have the same (if not better) pushing force as yours. i think whats going to make or break teams both offensively and defensively will be their machines' maneuverability.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

You know what they say... “The best defense is a good offense” :D

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

yeah, the picture i had was from the s10forum, but it is down right now. Monoleafed is crap, the ride quality is horrible. hahaha dragblocks would be great.

i agree with the links. I want to build a robot with a mini-4 link this summer. then i'll set it down on air ride next to my ranger.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

We're built for speed, shooting and pushing strenght, we should be able to push at least 90% of other robots around

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

That is what I was going to say.. :] :)

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

I have to say being in this for over 12 years we know what it takes to have a strong robot. And yes we have a strong robot.

What teams fail to realize is if you are going to push other robots around you better have a strong base to be able to take the hits. And a robot that will not break on you. I have seen so many robots that show up and will make one match and then break so badly they are not able to do what they think they could do.

another thing is yes you might have a good pushing robot but if someone know how to stop your power what then. there are so many ways to stop a strong robot. But unless you have had a lot of time and know the past you will be a robot with a lot of power but will not be able to use it wisely


Mike

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

Verdomme! Almost everyone is going to have the same amount of defensive ability, techincally speaking. I can assess the defensive capability of your robot with two questions:

1) What is the net power rating of all of your drive motors?
2) What is your lowest gear ratio?

That's all folks! After that it really comes down to driver skill, the range of which is fairly minimal in my experience. So most of the time, robots will be at a stalemate defensively, or it will be a complete shutout.

The game will be decided by your offensive capability.

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

i think you're over simplifying it a bit. no matter how much power your motors are putting out, or how low you gear them, if you have an 80 lb robot running two wheel drive on slick skyway caster wheels, then odds are they won't be winning many pushing contests. a few additional important questions might be:

3) what is the coef. of friction of your drive wheels?
4) what percentage of your wheels are driven?
5) how much does your robot weigh?

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

with a 2gear transmission, we proved today that we can be a very good defensive bot..

Re: Defense: Pushing and Blocking
 

Defense, as it turned out to be today, is a huge part of the game. One of the robots with no true offensive capabilities made it to a top seed at the scrimmage, whereas ours with a full drive system powered right was able to knock most shooters out of the way, pushing them sideways across the field, nullifying their abilities. As time progresses defense will probably become lesa of focus as offensive strategy changes to counteract, eg less stationary systems that were shown today