Is FIRST a Sport
 

Just curious.....how many of you believe that FIRST is a Sport?

I think it is.....just my opinion

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

According to Dictionary.com a sport is....

1. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
2. A particular form of this activity.
3.An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
4.An active pastime; recreation.

FIRST does require activity, even if it is in not quite the same way. Therefore I consider it a sport. After all, in a sport you get close to your team mates, and the same can be said for us.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Of course it is a sport. What else would motivate kids to build machines that can do stuff?

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Here is my reasoning: if NASCAR is a sport, then why can't FIRST be a sport? :p

However, not everything in FIRST is a sport. During the build season, the fabrication and programming of the robot may not qualify as a sport. There just isn't any "competition". Without competition, you cannot have a sport. But, at the regionals and Championships, you are competing in a game, against an opponent, with an objective to win. There are set rules and a definite playing field. You can score points, and you can get penalties. There are cheering fans, passionate team members, and hard-core competitors.

All of these are present in traditional sports, so FIRST competitions are no exception. Therefore, I consider competing in the competitions a varsity sport, with the sport being Aim High, Triple Play, or whatever game FIRST develops.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

If when your working on a robot and you get hunger and walk to the fridge and get something to eat. Is that a sport?

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Can't you do that at curling practise? Not to mention, you can then use the ice to keep your drink cold.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

FIRST is not a sport, it is an obsession :)

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

But what if that obsession is a sport?

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Believe me... it's not :)

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

FIRST is an obsession, but so is basketball, baseball, hockey, football, curling, NASCAR, field hockey, shuffle board, bowling, ice skating, running, jumping, skiing, skateboarding, vaulting, shot put, javeling, and biking to those who enjoy it very much. SO, if all those things are sports, then FIRST is definitely also a sport. ;)

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Having been an operator at Manchester BAE regionals, I can personally say that if nothing else, the very noise of the event makes it a sporting event. Where else have several adrenaline pumped fans screaming made you nearly deaf. Oh, and I forgot to mention the music, pumping so loud that you feel and hear it. Really an amazing experience. (By the way,if racing is a sport, so is robotics).

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Hey.. if cheerleading is a sport, then FIRST is a sport.

And, to verify this logic, both are/were shown on ESPN; THE Sports Network.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

FIRST is THE sport!

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Personally, I wouldn't call FIRST a sport. Then again, I wouldn't call NASCAR a sport. It's not the term "sport" that I have a problem, but the associated term "athlete." I would in no way call those of us who participate in FIRST athletes, nor would I call NASCAR drivers athletes. Neither of the two take any real athletic ability, so why should they be called sports. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking FIRST, I just don't think it can be lumped in with football, basketball, baseball, soccer, etc. Those are sports. You have to be a real athlete to play them. FIRST, NASCAR, golf, bowling, etc, are not sports, as you do not have to be an athlete to participate. Though one could argue that FIRST is a sport via lexicon, it would most certainly not be considered one by the majority of society and the socially accepted definition of "sport." I believe a better term would be "competition." The same goes for NASCAR and the like, it is a competition, a game, not a sport.

Also, as a note, I would actually consider cheerleading a sport.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

What is your definition of an athlete? And what is FIRST and NASCAR short of your definition? Do you have a definition or are you just saying because you feel that way?

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Actually, I must say that according to your definition you are correct in your analysis. FIRST is not a sport because it does not involve athletes. My point in my post was mainly to show that under a generalized definition of sports as competitions (e.g NASCAR), FIRST fits the requirements. Good thought on your part.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

According to Google: Athlete - A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts.

Once again, one could argue that anyone is an athlete via lexicon. However, based on the widely accepted concept of an athlete, FIRSTers would not qualify.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

so you guys never saw the competitions with the floppy pillows that had to be thrown across the field?

or the soccer balls that had to be thrown into the movable goals?

or the giant dodge-balls that had to be thrown into the goals?

Or the INNER TUBES! Ever try to play ring-toss with an inner tube from 30 feet out?

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

well the spelling bee is on ESPN also

so does that make it a sport

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Though I don't know of those particular games, I would assume that those were human player tasks. Therefore, I assume that you're implying that the human players are athletes, and therefore FIRST is a sport. I'd like to direct you back to my statements about lexicon, and how almost any activity can fit the definition of "sport" and any person fit the definition of "athlete." I stand by the fact that based on the socially accepted definitions of "sport" and "athlete" FIRST would not qualify. It's really simple, just go out and ask people if they believe a robotics competition is a sport. I strongly believe that you will find that very few consider FIRST, and any other competition like it, a sport.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Since:
According to Google: Athlete - A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts

Yes, you are right.

To add:

The countless hours of skill and hard work it takes to design and build a robot for a competition.

The hours of driver practice and skill it takes to COMPETE.

The STRATEGY required to win matches.

FIRST applies the same concepts sports does - persistence, practice, skill, competence, adaptability, commitment, intelligence, talent, precision, creativity, dedication.

There is also Fantasy FIRST. If FIRST was not a sport why would Fantasy FIRST exist?

Why do we celebrate when we win competitions and matches? When we win other awards?

I am thoroughly convinced FIRST is a sport. Convince me otherwise.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

THis is an issue which i have brought up with my school administration. While i personally believe FIRST is a sport, my school apparently does not :mad: . Here is a copy of the letter i sent to my principal on this topic and also on varsity letters.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Yeah, it's a sport. Don't know if the schools count it, but you know, that saves us fees...

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I would have to say, for a pep rally meant to introduce all the 2006 sports teams and having our robot be the first thing to make an appearance, I would have to consider FIRST to be a sport...

or at least the people who come up with our pep rallies think it is...

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I found a unique website that has a sort of a scoring system to determine if something is a "sport" or not. I am in no way saying this is official or that I agree with it completely, but it seems to be pretty well made. the website can be found here .

*note, this is my numbers I am putting in here, if you disagree, that is fine, this is only what I think

Physical Exertion (30 pts)
Conditioning Factor: 2
Toll Factor: 0
Lifespan factor: 2
Injury Factor: 0
Who or what factor:1
Total 4


Skill (30 pts)
Practice Factor: 4
Athlete Factor: 3
Body type Factor: 5
Equipment Mastery Factor: 6
Equipment Contribution Factor: 0

total: 17

Rules (10 pts)
Determining the winner: 10

Total: 10


Competition (30 pts)
Physical Contact Factor: 0
Offense/Defense Factor: 6
Interaction Factor: 0
Environment Factor: 2
Head to Head factor: 6

Total: 14


TOTAL: 46

The website states that anything greater than 75 is a sport, so by this definition, FIRST would not be considered a sport. I would have to agree that FIRST is not a sport just in the fact that the primary competitor is not moving the entire time, less the small amount to move joysticks. Personally, I think that anything where the main competitor barely moves by his own power should not be considered a sport. This quickly eliminates NASCAR, horseback riding, and sadly FIRST.

after all of this, I really don't think it matters if FIRST is a "sport" or not, after all, "sport" is just a name, and does not change anything about FIRST.

sorry for the long post, but just my $02

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

you are only rating FIRST from the human perspective

what about the robot? clearly the games ARE a robot sport, when you rate physical contact, harm and injury,

strength (a robot pulling 120A from a 12 volt battery is expending 1440 watts (1.93HP) - which is about equal to the power output of six 18 year old male athletes.)

from the robots perspective FIRST is absolutely a sport. Compare what our robots do vs something like a Roomba, or the Mars Rovers!

If FIRST is not a sport, then what is it?!

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Also take into account the BUILD SEASON. If you take into account all of those you will see how you can rate those better.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

If POKER is a sport, FIRST is most definitly a sport. They should show Regionals and Nationals on ESPN... haha. Id be even more addicted to ESPN if they did!

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

in reply to the above..... here are my numbers :D

Physical Exertion (30 pts)
Conditioning Factor: 2
Toll Factor: 0
Lifespan factor: 2
Injury Factor: 10
Who or what factor:1
Total 14


Skill (30 pts)
Practice Factor: 4
Athlete Factor: 3
Body type Factor: 5
Equipment Mastery Factor: 6
Equipment Contribution Factor: 0

total: 17

Rules (10 pts)
Determining the winner: 10

Total: 10


Competition (30 pts)
Physical Contact Factor: 10
Offense/Defense Factor: 6
Interaction Factor: 2
Environment Factor: 2
Head to Head factor: 6

Total: 26


TOTAL: 77

77.....which is over 75. ive seen robot to person contact at competition and ive also seen injuries....so thats my pov

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

By that, anything could be considered a sport. My sitting here and typing this could be considered a sport. I have a goal, it takes skill and practice to learn how to use a computer and type well, etc. This is why people are able to say "If _____ is a sport, then so is FIRST!" Because some people have so distorted the idea of a "sport" that nearly anything can be classified as such. Just because you see it on ESPN doesn't mean it's a sport. ESPN just as much Entertainment as it is Sports, just look at the name.

It seems to me that most of you want to classify FIRST as a sport to add some sort of value to it, to qualify it, or something, but that's not needed. Remember what Dean said at kickoff? FIRST borrows from sports, but it's something different, something better. "It’s not an accident we are built on the sport’s model, but there’s a big difference, it’s an important difference."

Classifying FIRST as a sport similar to baseball, basketball, etc, detracts from what makes FIRST special. By doing this you also detract from the athletes who choose to play those sports, because you're saying that you are equal even though the most you do in competition is move a joystick or throw a ball. This isn't saying anything bad about FIRST, but claiming that you are equal to a marathon runner is just as much of an insult to them as it would be for them to say "Your robot is nothing, I could build that easier, and better," to you. FIRST borrows from sports, but builds upon them to make something better. They're two completely different animals, just with similar characteristics.

Edit: An afterthought...

I still challenge you to ask people if robotics/FIRST is a sport, and see what they say. I imagine most will either ask "What's FIRST?" or say "No"

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

i know quite a few people (including me) are trying to get their districts to qualify FIRST as a sport for more recognition so the main point of this poll is to help...

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

One thing I actually like about our district is that they don't classify anything as a "sport," they use the term "athletics." This, of course, disqualifies our FIRST team from that category, but we are treated as a club/organization.

I'm curious, how would this poll help to get a district to qualify FIRST as a sport?

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Quote:They're two completely different animals, just with similar characteristics.

I fully agree with the fact that FIRST requires insane amounts of time, more technical prowess and skill than many sports, and even in some cases strategy than sports. However, by my reconing, FIRST is not at all a sport. Here is my reasoning.

FIRST is wonderful, but to be what it is it really shouldn't be considered a sport. Basically, FIRST is a robot sport. The robots need to be 'in shape,' thin, strong and fast. But it isn't a people sport. To be the best FIRST team member in the world you do not need the charactistics of an athlete. And that is one of the things that makes it so special. Because of this, FIRST teams have people who may not be good atheltes, but who might still be excellent strategists and team players. FIRST gives them a place to grow and expand without the physical componant of sports.

Of course this is purely opinion, so if anyone diagrees, burn me (but not too bad) :)

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

95% of people will say "What's FIRST?" After you explain what FIRST is (a robotics competition), 99.9% of those will say "like Battlebots?" After you get through explaining FIRST, they will either become hooked and say it's a sport, or hate it and say it's not, or not care one way or the other (probably the majority). The other 5% (from the beginning) will either a) be on a team or b) have heard about FIRST and answer you.

Now, something to consider: Is weightlifting a sport? Yes. OK, then we lift heavy weights, whether they are tools or robots. Is track a sport? Yes. Have you never seen a team racing to get on the field and set up? How about NASCAR? It's considered a sport, right? We are more physical and use more strategy than NASCAR. So, FIRST could most certainly be a sport.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Now, that's exactly what I'm talking about detracting from what athletes do. Weightlifters have to be in near-perfect physical condition. Maybe I'm not a "normal" FIRST participant, but I don't consider anything in our robotics room heavy. I mean, not heavy enough that I'd need to train constantly to lift it. Comparing running onto the field to track? I run when it's raining outside to not get wet, am I suddenly just the same as a track star? NASCAR is the only viable comparison, and while I don't consider it a sport either, I would say it is moreso than FIRST. Why? Contrary to your post, between the maintainance of the car, the fuel conservation, the driving techniques, the skill it takes to drive at those speeds, the considerations that the drivers have to take (surface, temperature, weather, etc), and everything else, FIRST doesn't even compare. FIRST could be a little brother to NASCAR, with the idea of drivers, pit crews, constant maintanance during competition, etc, but couldn't be considered "superior" by any means. All in all, by calling FIRST a sport, you're trivializing what real athletes have to do, just as someone saying that building your robot is easy trivializes the hard work you have to go through for FIRST.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

athletes who play things like.....olympic curling? :ahh:

http://www.olympic.org/uk/sports/pro...p?SportCode=CU

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

There is the front cover of the Mass Academy tri-fold brochure that reads: "Where ROBOTICS is a varsity sport"

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I strongly believe that robotics is a sport. It has developed into my sport. I personally am a very athletic person and I had plans of playing soccer in the fall, basketball in the winter and baseball in the spring. But when I started high school I discovered robotics, and needless to say I was hooked. :D

So I still played soccer in the fall, but abandoned playing basketball or baseball because it conflicted with robotics, and I'm not even playing soccer this fall because I want to focus on robotics.

Ok so anyway, I think that robotics is definetly a sport, just not so much a physical sport as a it is mental one. There are some minor fun physical aspect to the game which do take skill, but a majority of the skill come from the head.

So anyways, our school has spirit week next week, and monday is sports day. So I'll be wearing my team shirt and labcoat, with some saftey goggles on my head and a couple of poof balls in my hands. :p

Mike C.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

( NOTE: these are my opinions... and I'd rather not get bad rep for them :) )



I believe that first is a club, it is a game, it is a competition, and it is a learning experience, but it is not a sport. Go into a sport store... Will you find and ounce of extruded aluminum, or maybe a speed controller... no, you won't. Also, I don't know about you, but I'm winded after a running a city block, my mile time was 7:40, and I can't do more that 8 pull-ups anymore. I am not an athlete, and I am not in a sport.

More than once, I have had to lift the robot, but I lift it for maybe 5 seconds at a time, and maybe once every 5 minutes (at a hectic time). Weight lifters do this for hours on end, and with far heavier weights than 120 lbs, especially since the 120 lbs is usually shared between 3 or more people. I have also had to make a "mad dash" to get to my driver station on time... but as anyone who has done this while pulling a robot through a crowd can attest to, my maximum speed was 5 miles an hour, hardly a brisk pace. Once again, I am not an athlete, and I am not in a sport.



Another thing. If my friends all of the sudden make a “fantasy walking league”, does that make walking a sport?



I have a feeling that a lot of us here in FIRST only want to consider this a sport so that we can check the little box on a survey that says “I Participate in a high-school athletics program." And pat ourselves on the back for being "just as good" as the football, or basketball players. I won't hold myself to those standards, because I don’t play in a sport, and I am not an athlete. Truth is... We, being children of FIRST, have a much better chance of succeeding in life while doing what we want to be doing than a football player does. Tell me a sport that 3 teams have to band together to win... show me a sport that the athletes are as friendly with their opponents as they are their allies.



And one last point... is this webpage... It gives a brief history of sports.

http://fermi.univr.it/cla/webclass/Facchinetti/motorie/02-03/origin_of_sports.htm

I am convinced that FIRST is wholly different from a sport... Convince me otherwise


P.S. If you do have a problem with this post, please take it up with my inbox and not my rep box :o

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

First of all, GB330033 is completely correct. He presented logical arguments, and instead of logical replies intended to provoke thought and productive conversation, most of the responses are complete nonsense.

The main problem here is that many people are acting like FIRST not falling into the catagory of "Sport" somehow invalidates it.

The FIRST robotics competition is awesome. It often changes those that participate in it for the better. It is an excellent opportunity to learn things about science and technology that you would not have the chance to learn about otherwise. In my opinion, it has more to offer than most "Sports".

However, all of these benefits and everything else that is great about FIRST, Does not change Reality or the definitions of words.

That being said, a "Mental Sport" is called a game. It is Difficult, Strategic, Fun, and it requires Intelligence and Mental Acuity. BUT, That doesn't make it a Sport. And anyone who thinks that lifting a toolbox makes them an Athlete, has NO understanding of how hard a real athlete works EVERY DAY. Again, that is not meant to belittle anyone, that same athlete would have no understanding of what goes into the building of a robot.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

why would FIRST not be a sport

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

The following are characteristics of a sport off of Wikipedia

* Target-In FIRST, many of the games (notice that FIRST calls them games, not sports) involve targets. Indeed, there are few that don't, with Stack Attack being the only one that I could think of recently, thought some of the earlier ones do not have targets.

* Display-Like in gymnastics or bodybuilding, the robot generally is made to look as polished as possible to make it seem better than those that are not as polished. Teams decorate their robots with paint and colors to make them have a better display.

* Strength-There is a lot of strength involved in FIRST robotics. The robots have at different times been required to pull goals back and forth, do chin-ups on the bar and even this year throw balls at a large distance.

* Combat-Of course FIRST has a combat characteristic; it involves teams fighting one another. Robots smash, tip, and occasionally ram other opponents.

* Court-The court in FIRST is always clearly defined, with alliance stations, goals, and other GAME elements clearly defined. There are even penalties for being at certain places in the court at different times.

* Team-Finally, FIRST has incredible team dynamics. Robots have to work together on each side in order to compete successfully. Some choose to play defensively and others choose to go onto offence.


From all of the above many might argue that FIRST should be a sport. All of these dynamics are present. However, there is one key difference. All of these things occur through the robot. Not including the human players, all of the human team members are quite passive when compared to the robots they control. Thus, this makes a case that FIRST would indeed be a sport if the people were required to do the work. However, because it is the robots who are playing the game, FIRST is not a sport.

**I also do not think that NASCAR is a sport in the conventional sense.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

:confused: Yes, this is just my opinion, but I have to disagree with the above statements. As one of the drivers for my team, I know exactly what it is like to be under the spotlight, to get your robot from point A to B while avoiding the opponents, and cordinating your actions with those of your alliance partners.

Examples: Maintainance of the car robot, fuel battery conversation, driving techniques, the skill it takes to drive at those speeds the robot successfully with two drivers, the considerations the drivers have to take (surface, temperature other robots, weather the quantity of poof balls left in your alliance's goals, the number of poof balls in the opponent's goals, how easily the other alliance will will score, etc, and much more!). The amount of strategy that goes into winning is immense. What about alliances? The amount of strategy that goes into coordinating your moves with your alliance partners to maximize your score with your team's abilities is unparallel in NASCAR.

FIRST is an "apples to apples" comparision with NASCAR, and because of the intensity of both they are both sports. :)

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this as well. By calling FIRST a sport, you are not trivializing what real athletes do. In fact, you are calling to light what real FIRSTers do. If someone was to spend 30 hours a week at robotics meetings, staying up until 3 AM every night working on their team's website, teaching themselves CAD and Inventor along the way, being the co-driver for their team, being on multiple sub-teams, and much much more, would you say that this person trivializes what real athletes do? On the contrary, I think this person would prove how much effort really goes into FIRST, and would prove that FIRSTers are not trivializing athletes.

Trying to be humble: All of those describe what I do for my team, so yes, those are based of a real person. :)

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Last year I was a human player. I know the feeling that you get up there. As a driver it is even more so. But as an athelete myself, I know too, that it is totally different.
Being a driver, finishing a 2 minute match, is in no way the same as finishing an 800 meter relay leg (about 2:10). Staying up until 3 a.m. working on a robot is no where near the same fatigue that one feels when coming off of a soccer field after 80 minutes of working yourself. Anyone who says that their entire body is sore from all of their exertation is probably just getting too little sleep.
In FIRST, the is a totally different kind of work from that of a sport, and this is what i think GB330033 is trying to get at. Just because it isn't a sport doesn't take away from it at all. However, trying to compare apples and oranges will get us nowhere.

My 2 cents. :D

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

if you think FIRST is not a sport, then what would it take to make it a sport by your definition?

Motor cross, motorcycle racing, Nascar - the athlete is in the vehicle being driven. If we changed FIRST so that the driver was IN the robot on the field, would that make it a real sport?

What about sports like sailing, bobsled racing, or other sports where the athlete is not suppling the energy that moves the vehicle in any way, the wind, or gravity is? How is controlling a million dollar sailboat different from controlling a $100,000 (time and resources invested) robot?

What about sports like golf, where almost no physical strength or stamina is required? Golf is all about skill controlling the motion of a club to hit a ball. How is that different from the skill required to control a machine to move a ball on the playfield?

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

To me, NASCAR and motocycle racing are both competitions. Thats is purely opinions, it is just how I view the concept of sports. I think that they lack the physical exertion that is required in a sport.

As to sailing and bobsled racing, the 'athletes' are participating in sport (to me) because their actions require a large degree of precision. FIRST drivers require the same amount of precision I agree. However, they do not physically shift their weight, as in bobsledding, or physically raise a sail. They press a button that enacts a series of commands in the controller that causes a motor/servo/pneumatic to do it for them. This is a key difference.

However, you bring up a good point with golf. Golf is clearly a sport in popular belief, yet at the same time, it holds many of the same characteristics as FIRST. To attempt counter this argument, I think that it is nessecarry to again put into perspective the relationship between the golf club and the person. The person hitting the golf ball is using the club to act as an extenion of his arm. The golf club is passivly hitting the ball; the force causing the ball to move come directly from the person swinging the club. However, the force that moves robots comes from motors that in turn are controlled by the drivers.Therefore, there is a small, but important difference.


Two more points that make FIRST a non-sport:

Autonomous mode: This section requires abosolutley no input or interaction from the 'athletes' (drivers). However, it is clearly an important part of the game, as it determines (this year) what position each team will play first.

Robot failure: At many times during competition, robots will break or run out of battery or simply not respond. The 'athletes' have no control after this happens and need to passivly watch the rest of the game commence. Therefore, the robots are the ones that are actually 'athletes' if FIRST were to be a sport. because the definition of an athlete is
"A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as
strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise
or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts,"
(Dictionary.com)
FIRST is not a sport, because the robots are not people.

Again all of this is pure opinion, but I urge all of you to do your best to counter it. Opinions, of course, can be changes. :o

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I would like to go back to a point Cody C made that I really relished. He said...

Most of the colleges I am applying to probably don't care that much if Robotics is a sport or not a sport. Nor does my employer, and nor does my school. FIRST brings a different set of skills to an individual and a group than sports do...and I would rather have allies in FIRST any day.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Agreed. Just because it isn't a sport doen't mean you won't get into college. And I highly doubt that a colllege admissions officer is going to think that it is a sport, even if your school does.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

About the NASCAR comparison, you're missing the point. The reason I said that NASCAR could be compared to FIRST in some aspects is because of the things you pointed out, however, the fundamental difference is that NASCAR drivers are put under much more pressure than FIRST participants. Those drivers are out there risking their LIVES for that competition. FIRSTers are just risking their pride. Yes, on a fundamental level, NASCAR and FIRST are quite similar, but FIRST is no where near as intense as NASCAR. Do I think NASCAR is a sport? As stated already, no. However, it is a much more intense "competition" than FIRST. I was a driver too, and I'll agree that it's intense, but it can't be equated to being under the lights on a football field. pwilczynski hit the nail on the head.


As far as trivializing the work of athletes goes, I once again think you're missing my point. I think we can all agree that a person couldn't just walk up and do some of the things that we as FIRSTers do (IE: Building robots, formulating strategy, etc). By the same token, not just anyone can walk up and do what some athletes do. If you call FIRST a sport, you imply that the participants are athletes, which seems to trivialize not only the work that real athletes do, but the work we do as well. Would you say being able to run fast is the same as being able to construct a championship-quality robot? No, they're completely different. Don't try to make the two equal.

As Dean has said, FIRST is similar to a sporting event, but there are key differences. Let's not try and make FIRST be a sport, because it's far different. Remember, I'm not trying to say that FIRST is inferior because it's not a sport. FIRST and sports are similar, but different. Neither is better than the other, they are each worthwhile in their own right.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I think that says it better than any of us.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

With that definition, you could also say playing video games is a "sport", which it most definately is not.

Golf is refered to as "The game of golf" for a reason.

Auto racing, motocross, etc best fits as a competition

Competition is a much more generalized term, and thats why I believe FIRST is not a sport, it never was, and it never will be a sport.

Plus, FIRST calls this, The FIRST Robotics Competition.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

FIRST is not to be compared with NASCAR, motocross, or any other vehicle related sport. When you drive a robot, you are not ON the robot, moving at 35+ Mph and having to think about the fact that if you make one mistake, you could very well lose your life.

The reason that saying FIRSTis a sport belittles Athletes is because it says "Yeah, we do the physical activity that you do AND are smarter than you" We don't participate in the same level physical activity at all.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Generally speaking, sports require long preparation, quick action, and immense physical exertion. FIRST is all these things, except physical. The only workout I get from FIRST is standing all day on an empty stomach, and maybe blood loss.

However, I prefer FIRST, which I call a competition, in most respects, to my other major "sport", soccer. There is no need to say FIRST is a sport because you turn a wrench, because its fine as it is, without the title of "sport". Besides, there are other advantages: with the title of "sport", you have to take showers with other guys...

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I disagree, I believe that FIRST is not a sport but an activity, a junction where team members come and design,built and even test what they have accomplished. For many it something that changes lives ( LIKE ME) and it does wonders for the world.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I am not sure about you guys but we definately get a mental workout and we do a lot of running between the pits and the stands. Despite this I would say robotics is not a sport.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

True that. My team's robot was the feature of last year's final pep rally, so we gave a nice little demonstration to all that were there. Most of them liked it, especially the part where the principal and one of the teachers pushed our 2004 robot with our 2005 robot towards one section of the stands and people had to crawl out of the way so robots wouldn't crush them (this was followed by us grabbing the controls back from them so no injuries occured).

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I've enjoyed reading this thread. I personally can't think of anything less relevant to my life than asking, "is FIRST a sport?", but there is room in my life for meaningless amusements.

You've all missed the point, though. A sport is any activity for which you wear special shoes.

You may now continue your discussion.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I believe it is, but outsiders that do not understand all of the aspects of FIRST do not...they just see us as a bunch of tech geeks (we are but we're proud of it.

and first is much more than a techie gathering

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

A new form of sport is how I precieve it. The sweat, the pressure, the practice! the sport of Engineering.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Can you pull a groin doing something in FIRST? If you can... it's a sport.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I see it as a Team but not a Sport.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Heres my opinion.

FIRST is a sport And here are my reasons. FIRST is a non traditional type sport the same as NASCAR is, where the vehicle is the 'athlete'.

Now, before you say that a person needs to be the athlete (as dictionary.com says) Take a look at Thoroughbred horseracing or greyhound racing. Both are sports but the 'athlete' as not a person but an animal. In todays day-and-age machines replace the animal, but the sport remains.

I guess it depends on your personal definition of sport (not just Dictionary.com's definition). My definition is an activity that requires skill and strategy to win a competition under a specified set of rules. FIRST satisfies my definition.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

physical activity: Running away from the robot stuck in autom chasing your colour shirt ;)

yes i think its a sport!

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

it involves the strategy of a sport and the physical exertion. so sure, why not? lol

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

FIRST Robotics describes itself as a sporting like competition. One of its goals is to excite young people by engineering in much the same way other sports do. Its definatly a sport, but also goes above and beyond the term.

Edit:
More food for thought. Would you consider those robo puppies playing soccer to be a sport? I sure do. Course to me there is also a difference between sports and athetism. FIRST will clearly never be in the Olympics, but that doesn't make it or other simular activities any less a sport.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I think it's a sport, partially because we come home tired each night, and at the end of the season we get to enjoy the fruits of our labor, and all the competitors unite in glorious competition. The other part is that it takes time, and practice, just like most sports. Thanks to the above reasons, i believe FIRST is definitely a sport

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I agree with Daniel that it depends on each person's personal definition. However, I also think that
A) this is a great chance to try and get to the bottom of this whole FIRST thing
and B) Just a fun little argument with a little gracious professionalism sprinkled on top

However, to counter your point about an "activity that requires skill and strategy to win a competition under a specified set of rules," I will provide the Dictionary.com definition of a 'game.'

An active interest or pursuit, especially one involving competitive engagement or adherence to rules

I think that you will agree that this places FIRST into the catagory of game/compitition. I also think that FIRST would agree itself, as it has never called itself a sport (except as a 'sport for the mind'), but has on numerous occasions called itself a competition (FIRST Robotics Competition) or a game (FIRST Game Design Comittee).

I think that this statement undermines what makes FIRST different from a sport, the fact that one does not use the same type of physical exertion as sports. FIRST exertion is fatigue due to loss of sleep, of frusteration due to a broken robot, or lifting a couple of pounds of corregated aluminum. These are totally different types of exertion from the exertions required to play sports (i.e. running quickly, lifting very heavy weights (not including robots, which are normally lifter by more than one person), or jumping).


Perhaps a sport for the robots, as I have said FIRST is, but you couldn't argue that the people involved were using any extraordinary amount of physical activity, much like those in FIRST.


As always, my two cents :)

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

If you where apart of the 2003 Nats - you rember going up and down thoes ramps.

I rember it quite well - and I consider it a sport...:D

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I just want to say that jockeys in Thoroughbred horse racing are athletes. If you disagree, you try standing up in the saddle of a horse going 45mph and see how you take it. lol :rolleyes: "And though they be but little, they are fierce!" haha

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

For all who think that we are belittling athletes--
There is one thing about sports that they all have in common. Training. Athletes train continuously. They work hard for days on end, trying to be the best. I think most of us have played comptitive sports at one time or another. So we know something of what they go through. Now, we can respect them for that hard work, right? But then you hear of all these drug use allegations, and it's like, Why are they doing this when they could just train harder?

OK, now that I've started on this topic, here's something else to consider. FIRSTers train and practice and prepare very hard. Driver training, building the robot, making sure the rookies know what they are doing, recruiting team members, giving blood, sweat, and tears, you get the picture. Watching the robot weight could correlate to a jockey in horse racing having to be light so his horse doen't have to carry extra weight.

All I'm saying is that FIRST has almost everything it takes to be a sport. The one thing that might be lacking is human physical activity on the field, but that's where human players come in.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

Yes it was made after the sports model, but in my opinion it is not a sport, no one would ever say the DARPA chalange is a sport, this is the same. yes it is a game, but not all games are a sport. for instance, lasts years game was much like tic tac toe. is tic tac toe a sport, no but it is a game, to call it a sport is to call human chess a sport. A sport is named a sport for one thing alone, it is the physical activness by a human which has a set number of rules from which you may compare yourself to another whom is actively participating in this same event.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

I wouldnt say persay it is a sport, but it is explained like a sport. I would definetly relate it to being a sport.

Re: Is FIRST a Sport
 

FIRST is a sport because it is a physically challenging, mental challenge. That probably made no sense, but I'll run with it for now.