Human Player
 

How valuable do you think a great human player will be? Do you think it will affect alliance pickers to pick your robot who may be a little worse over a team thats a little better with a horrible human player? How much will the human player affect alliances and the overall game play?

Re: Human Player
 

It really depends on what kind of ball pickup mechanism you have, right?
If you have to toss balls into your hopper, you had better have a good human player! :)

I don't really see the viability of making goals all the way across the 50-something foot field, over the 6-foot wall.
The robot has a hard enough time making goals from half court! :ahh:

Re: Human Player
 

Well even if you don't have the above hopper which you toss into, human players still hold alot of power, as the balls on the ground can be very tempting to the other teams, you have to know when to throw them and where to throw them. the human player which isn't able to throw in the top hopper, will likely fail at this... besides which team out there doesn't have a member on a sports team, or which has a good throw... I don't think it will be very often that you find a "bad" human player, but they will pop up I am sure.

Re: Human Player
 

I think that last year a lot of people said a human player wouldn't be important because of auto-loading.

Think again!

Even if your robot is automatically loading, that mechanism can break down, and having a good human player in a stitch may be your key to success. Also, your human player can help your alliance a lot. Say a robot with an open top on the blue alliance is situated such that its human player can't reach it right away...but the HP on the other end of the side can. Simple communication can speed up the process of loading and send the bot on its way.

Re: Human Player
 

This game is a combination of so many factors that it's hard to say that something will not make a difference.

The way I see it is, this game is just as dependent on the robot and how it works as it is on the strategy involved in preparation. So, if the robot depends on the human players, of course, the human player's role will be important. Each miss provides that many more seconds wasted in throwing and going down to get another ball. In a game like this, each second can make a difference.

So does the human player make a difference? Yes. Will it make a significant and noticable difference in the overall picture? I don't think so.

But how do I know? I haven't played yet! Time will tell....

Re: Human Player
 

If nothing else, your human better be able to hit a person at the range of 30 feet so the other person can grab the poof ball! That way, you can get the balls to the best human player quickly. About 60 feet to the far end of the field +6+ft.barrier= few if any human scores.

Re: Human Player
 

Can't the human player shoot balls over the wall into the hopper on top of the robot? That isn't 30 feet away. When a team is in defense mode can't they still be collecting balls, but not shooting them? They should be able to collect them from the floor and from the human player. On defense, two of the robots can be over in the end near their alliance human players "defending" against the other robots. Why can't they block a corner corral and have their human player load balls over the wall into their hopper? :confused:

Am I missing something?

Thanks for the input.
This is a great forum to put out questions on.

Carolyn Hinckley
Mentor

Re: Human Player
 

It is definitely possible, that was all I worked on for the first week or two of the build season. However, it is kind of hard to account for all of the robots that will be winding in and out of the space in front of the opposing lower goals. They would either deflect balls from a human player or just suck them up and use them for something else like shooting.
If I read your post correctly, you are right - the human players can load balls into the hopper of the backbot while the other two robots are playing defense. Blocking a goal to manually load balls while the other 5 robots are on the other half of the field should not be a problem.

Re: Human Player
 

Maybe I have this wrong but I thought our Human players were at the end of the field where the other teams scoring zone was. If so, that would put two robots near the human players that could be loaded. I thought one strategy was that when the opposing team scored a goal that our human players were there and could hold onto the balls or put them back on the field. Our players would not be loading our backbot. It would be near the opposing alliance human players.

Aren't the human players on the opposite end from the scoring zone for each alliance?

Re: Human Player
 

Human players are on the opposite side from the scoring zone, you are correct. However throwing a poofball from 3' BEHIND the lexan (yup, behind the starting line) over an 8' piece of lexan and into a robot that will most likely not be sitting still will be difficult. And if the robot is up against the lexan (guarding the side goal) it will be almost impossible (other than a lob) to put a poofball into the robot.

Re: Human Player
 

But can't the human players go to any part of the alliance zone they want to?

Re: Human Player
 

Thank you so much for this answer.
I thought I was confused. Not a great strategy on our part is it?

Thanks anyway. :)

Re: Human Player
 

Don't forget Dan, those dimensions are actually 4' behind and 6' 6.25" high in the space behind the low goals. (10' 5.25" in the central section). Anything is possible :)

Hans, human players can go anywhere within the boundaries of their own alliance zone... they cannot go to the zone of the opposing alliance.

Re: Human Player
 

and the human player can launch balls over to your half of the scoring area so you have balls when you need them. even if they miss, then your robot can pick them up if you have a harvester to do so.

Re: Human Player
 

My 30' estimate for hiiting a person was in reference to the fact that humans, even the worst ones in the world, can throw or pass the balls to each other. If you can hit anything you want at 60 feet, you can hit the robot or the corner goal.

Re: Human Player
 

Human players would be useful if they could get the ball anywhere close to the robot. That way, the robot can load it itself, and you don't need an inordinately good player. I don't think there is any way anyone will score points. Maybe 1 in 100 tries, but seriously, most people couldn't throw into something that small from 10 feet away, much less 54, and definitely not over a 6 foot wall. The game is giving us restrictions, and we have to find a way to get around them, or lose part of our potential

Re: Human Player
 

I am the human player for our team, team 1719, and I don't see how you could even get 1/100 into the goal :) . I've tried rolling the ball into the goal from just a few feet away, and even that is not exactly easy because the ball bounces as it comes up to the goal and seems as likely as not to hit the top of the goal and bounce back out.

Throwing the balls in would be almost impossible considering the angle, not even counting for the fact that a minor variation in the way you throw the ball makes a big difference in where it ends up. I'd say only on an absolutely /perfect/ throw would you even have a chance.

Overall, I'd say the chances are such that noone will get throw any balls into the corner goals at any of the competitions at any time.

The human player does have some resposibilities, which have already been talked about here anyway, so I suggest not boring you with them again.

That's it,
Paul Dennis

Re: Human Player
 

Who says the best people for human players have to be on a sports team. Honestly that is sterotypical for people to think that. In 2004 (FIRST Frenzy) our human player was not that athletic and did not play a single sport. However throughout all the regionals and nationals he made around 95% of his shots. In elimination rounds in Long Island he missed none of his shots. So why would teams instantly decide to go with a sports player for human player?

Anyways human player has a few things they are going to need to be able to do.

1.) be able to shoot into your robot. Yes you may say lets just shoot close, but if your human player can make it in your robot then that is less time your drivers have to take to chase a ball down and get it in the robot. Meaning you can shoot more over the same time.

2.) the human player needs to know when to shoot. If the robot is about to move the human player needs to be able to predict this movement.

3.) also the human player needs to know the rules of what she/he can do. Because penalities can cost matches no matter their size.

4.) Also needs to be able to know what is going on on the field.

Re: Human Player
 

i've only practiced a bit this year, but i got to be the human player 2 years ago, so i've had a little previous experience. From around 15-20 feet away, i can hit our hopper 6 out of 10 times, i know, its not great, but our hopper is like 2 feet by 1 foot. However, i can drop the rate of fire (6 out of 10) into the lower goal from a straight shot, not the cross shot.
The human player is going to be useful for us, because we have to load balls from the ground 1 at a time. :ahh: i think this is gonna be great.

Re: Human Player
 

trhjrjhijylfilp


human players are vital to a team that has a hopper also to teams that harvest balls


we have really good human player they can make 19 out of 22 from 40 feet away and 21 out of 22 from 30 feet away(half of the feild)

Re: Human Player
 

i see the human player as valuable because they control who or what has the ball

Re: Human Player
 

cant the human players throw it into the the area where the robot is, its only 30 feet and easily atainable. then the robot can get them there. thats what i plan on doing since im a human player.

Re: Human Player
 

Someone was talking about having the human player shoot. I've been practicing for human player, and i've been able to hit goals pretty well. Obviously, it won't be as easy when there are robots blocking it, but the wall isn't really an obstacle.

694

Re: Human Player
 

There is a advantage of being tall for this game Ex:ME!!! :D :D :D

Re: Human Player
 

Well we just got back from the Colorado Scrimmage and lets just say thaty a human player shooting into those corner goals should NOT be ruled out. With about an hour or two of practice our amazing HP managed to get over half of his balls thrown into the corner goals. So, don't trule those corner goals out completely, they are still a viable option for human players.

Re: Human Player
 

Wow. I definitely agree. There were a lot of those balls coming through at the DC Scrimmage, especially later in the day.

Re: Human Player
 

We had a PAC NW scrimmage today. It is kinda sad how many of the HPs just wasted balls throwing them wildly in the air and getting in the way of the one out of 8 teams HP that really could do it.

Re: Human Player
 

Just to let you know, we attended the Winter Warzone Scrimmage today, and the champion of the scrimmage would have lost if the Human players had not scored any 1 pointers. Just something to ponder. I'm not sure if it will be the case in the future, but it ws big at the scrimmage.

Re: Human Player
 

I think 1/100 seems a bit too low, i mean our human player during practice was making about 1/5 (throwing them across field) granted our field setup isn't 100% accurate but its similar (he is on the foot ball team though)

Re: Human Player
 

Even if the HP misses the goal, the ball's location will allow it to be easily used.

Re: Human Player
 

Our team is at a dilema. We have a great driver and a great human player, the problem is that they are the same person. No one on the team is near as good as he is at human player and hes tied with the other best driver, yet he has more expierience. What should we do, go for a good human player and help our alliances more and take a chance with the driving, or go safe with an expierienced driver and hope everyones ball collecter works?

Re: Human Player
 

unless you absolutely CANNOT pick up from the floor, go with the best driver, cuz if you can pick up from the floor the human player is negligible

Can they throw it over the wall? that's all they need really, throw it over and in the general direction

Re: Human Player
 

Yeh we just dont know. We'll wait to see during the practice matches in Cleveland to see what we're doing.

Re: Human Player
 

Also, remember the wall is only like 6 feet 4 inches tall, so just get someone tall, who can throw a ball moderatley wlel, and youre set.

Re: Human Player
 

Well, I know other people have said this but again, it would depend on what kind of robot you have. However, Human Players are also allowed to throw balls to get other teams well, the other alliances' balls off-course. It is in the rules..... so I mean, if your good at throwing a ball, or your Human Player(s) are/is then, go you!
But overall, I would say, next to the robot, HP's are very important this year.
Defiantely will help out. :D

Re: Human Player
 

No true answer.

Experiment in the practice matches and the practice field.

Hope it gets resolved.

Re: Human Player
 

I'd say it's near impossible for the human player to score any points unless they're extremely good at it

Re: Human Player
 

I've seen this sentiment repeated many times, but I really wonder how many people have tried. During our last week we had human player competitions on 525 to determine our field players. Our highest score (throwing over the wall and across the field to the low goal) was around 20/25 while many others were right under that.

Re: Human Player
 

They really got 20 out of 25. That may be a game changing factor. 20 points is definitely a lot.

Re: Human Player
 

Our team setup the field and from the look of it throwing a ball to the corner goal is not very difficult. If your human player can score that way consistantly you can even out every point the opponent make by dumping into the corner goal. Sure they can block it but sitting on the corner goal isn't really a good option, I'd be pushing around 3 point shooters instead. But then of course, if you put those balls back to your shooters instead of try scoring the corner goal you have the possibility of getting 3 times the points. :)

Re: Human Player
 

I think that if your opponent hoards balls into their scoring goal...then you get a HP to throw them all into a big hopper, then have that hopper dump all the balls into your goal, you could concievable score more points than you could be shooting, since you could do it quicker.

Granted, if you can only collect balls from the ground then that cuts the role of the HP considerably

It all depends on your robot design...although 11 did win a semi-final match in 2002 when our HP threw a hail mary shot into the goal at the buzzer. Granted, those goals were considerably larger than these, but still a hail mary shot at the buzzer isn't inconcevable

Re: Human Player
 

i personally think the human player is going to be important because at the beginning of the match there are no balls on the floor so i feel sorry for the team that goes on offense first. 60 balls= robots do they use them or not? 10 balls= each alliances total they have to get to the floor for a robot to bick them up so human player is going to be really important. they also have to keep watch on the time and try to keep the score so human players are going to be valuable :)

Re: Human Player
 

Today at the NJ regional I saw a bunch of teams trying to shoot for their corner corrals with their HP, but due to the robots and the incline going towards the corral the task is definately going to be harder then once anticipated.

Re: Human Player
 

our team does not have a single person this year on a sports team, last year however our human player was a soccer player, which worked for us, since we used the human loading zone...keep in mind for the team's 2 years, the most active people we have had was about 8 and that was last year!!!
also...at the high school, we lost many people last year to spring sports

Re: Human Player
 

All I know is that I tried to train a freshmen to be a human player... n she ended up hitting the refs 5 times. lol. it was really funny.

Re: Human Player
 

I thought i remebered hearing, but i cant find the rule, saying that a human player can not throw a ball into the center goal. I found that

<G38> Entering balls onto the field - Only the HUMAN PLAYERs may enter a ball onto the field, either by
attempting to throw it to a ROBOT, attempting to throw it in a corner goal, or throwing it onto the field
for pickup by a ROBOT. Balls must be thrown over the top of the Alliance Station Wall, and may not be
thrown around the side of the Alliance Station Wall. Violations of this rule will result in a 5-point penalty
per ball entered onto the field.

But it does not say that you cant go for the center goal.

Re: Human Player
 

Rule <G27>
<G27> ROBOTs Must Throw the Balls into the Center Goal - Only a ROBOT may throw a ball into the center goal. The kinetic energy of the ball must be supplied by the ROBOT. A HUMAN PLAYER may not bounce a ball off a ROBOT and score it in the center goal. A violation of this rule will result in a 5-point penalty.

Re: Human Player
 

thanks. At a scrimmage, not a regional, a guy threw one in the center goal. A little amusing, just i thought it was against the rules. Now im positive, thanks.

Re: Human Player
 

Hey everyone, I have a question some of you may know, which concerns the human players. While watching some videos of regionals last weekend, I noticed in the player stations members would grab the balls from one gathering area and move them to a bin behind one of the human players. Is this legal, because I don't see anything talking about that in the rules. If someone who knows the rules very well and/or has gone to a regional knows the specifics on this, please let me know.

Re: Human Player
 

It's also not a bad idea to have a bot with a big open hopper to be if you or two HP's on the alliance have a good half court shot and still make it in the bot. Then ya don't need to go so far and such.

Re: Human Player
 

Members being people volunteering? Becuase if so, then yes it is legal. I'm not sure if it was in the rules, but as human player just getting back from the Hartford regional, they did that so that the balls wouldn't be pushed around in the corral. This is so that they don't get scored twice. The scoring mechanisms aren't at the top of the ramp, rather they are looking down about half way,(theres a net that makes it obvious). Anyway, even though they have a human counter they don't want balls being scored twice so they move it behind the human player.

Re: Human Player
 

On our team, the HP was very important.

On defense, we liked the load balls into our hopper, being that our ball picked up from the floor was extremely slow, and if we did that, nothing could be IN our hopper.

Some of these matches went well with HP loading, and some didn't go so well.

Being the HP, I did realize that HPs are more important than we all thought. They return the balls to the field, load your bot, and even an alliance bot.

I remember at one match, all three HPs were just getting balls to one corner because that's where our bots were that needed loading. It's good to stick together.

For future reference to HPs. Before a match, strategize with your allianced HPs and find out about their HP and bot. Do they need balls more than your bot does? Are they better at shooting/loading than you are? Find these things out, two minutes goes by very quickly.

Re: Human Player
 

I can say that an amazing human player can be a valuable asset to any team. I am the human player for Team 537, and we won the St. Louis Regional yesterday. I can say that in one match I scored at least 5 points and we would have won 22-20, but we got penalized because the team we told to be the backbot failed to be the backbot. In finals I was not scoring much in the low goals but I played a big part in loading up Beatty so that they could unload 10+ balls into the far goal and give us a lead going into the final period so that we could focus on defense.

Re: Human Player
 

During the New England Regional in Hartford, i was constinatally scoring balls in our hopper and the corner goals. Although it is not a constant way of scoring, i did score 14 in one round(not counting the ones i accidently threw when our team was on D). Though if you are going up against team such as Gael Force, it is smarter to just hold the balls instead of letting them reload and score.

Re: Human Player
 

As human player, I noticed several matches in which the human player scoring/getting in the way made all the difference. Several matches the teams were seperated by a margin of like 3 points and then the human player made those extra four points, or on the converse side, got penalities and lost the game. THey may not be as important as a coach or a driver, but they can be useful.

Re: Human Player
 

I was surprised how much strategy can come from the human player. I would spend a couple minutes with my drive team, and the other teams drivers on our alliance talking about strategies. Sometimes I would load up the other human players bin, or but the balls in an alliances robot when it came near me. I would do that on Defence, and on offence I would either score on the corner goals, or throw a ball neer my teams robot to help them. On the free-for-all part, I would just score, I never really did much else.

A lot can come from a human player.

Re: Human Player
 

It is actually 80 balls, not 60. But to start out with, yes 60 because max of 10 in each robot. :D Just trying to be helpful!

Re: Human Player
 

Being the human player is alot harder than i expected. It may look simple, but all the angles, strategy, you really need you r head in their. This year, the human player actually has a fun job :ahh: .

Re: Human Player
 

Chantillty Robotics team 612's human player was able to get 20 balls in the corner goal, so i guess important since the human player are kinda the xfactor in the game if its close

Re: Human Player
 

For the most part it seems like human players aren't that important, unless your bot is only human player loadable. Still, if your bot is only human player loadable you can just park in front of your own corner goal on defense and have an easy time of the loading. It also doesn't seem like a really good human player can change the game. In one match where our chain fell off and the other two robots couldn't score very well as human player I scored about 8 points out of our alliance's 12. Needless to say, we did not win that match.

Re: Human Player
 

Our HP is a very good HP. I didn't realize how hard it would be to get them into the side goals. I'm a mentor and a the preship event I decided to try it and I found out that it has to be bounced or landed at center court and then roll in. We kept track of how many our HP scored. For 3 regionals combined, he was able to score 100 pts. himself. That's a lot or points for one person. Like previously said above I don't see the HP being that important unless you have to load from the HP, or throw balls on the field for your robot to collect.

Re: Human Player
 

I don't think it matters so much how well your human player is, but rather how well it adapts to benefit each and every human player on your team, for instance the triplets this year had a great hopper which worked amazingly well for throwing balls into, even if you were terrible at it... another think I've noticed, it the more human involvement a team puts into a match, the more they have been to win, as after all at this point there is very few areas were machines can do basic things better then humans... just my thoughts

Re: Human Player
 

well out hp basically won the regional for our individual team....let me elaborate--->our camera was knocked out in the rubber match of the Finger Lakes Finals and our teammates 229 and 1567 were doing the best they could (which was good) against a stong number 2 alliance headed by the x-cats, we won by a small margin. And of course me being as crazy as i am asked our teammates in a frantic panic "How many did you score!!!" and "How many did they score!!!" and i realized that the final ramp climb by 1567 might have pushed us over then my HP (Bill a.k.a. "Cash Money") came up to me and said "oh yeah I also got like 4 shots in the low goal." i was pumped. So i guess for us our HP was essential. Not only being a clutch player he also was very consistant and through out the regional scored probably 1-3 goals as an average and a high of like 7 or so. In the overall scheme of things it probably didnt make a huge impact but i guess what i am trying to say is that the HP was an essential part of our team and will remain an essential part of our team.