Are you actually using bumpers?
 

I know that my team kind of brushed aside the notion of spending extra time, money and energy to add bumpers that will make our robot look less cool and less maneuverable. We also kind of figured that most teams will have them anyway, so it would be unnecessary (kind of the "If everyone else is a good driver I don't have to be" approach). We also don't feel like the 15 pounds will be anything close to a deal-breaker when push comes to shove.

Anyway, I was wondering how many teams actually are going to add bumpers, and whether or not it will affect the competition at all. Your thoughts?

(A search turned up only a 2002 thread about bumpers, not really applicable anymore)

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

YES! 15 free lbs is great - especially since they can help replace lexan for protection and team numbers in some areas.

Also - FIRST is all about parity these days. 70% of the teams use either the kit, AndyMark, or Dewalt transmissions with about the same gear ratios, IFI or AndyMark or similar style traction wheels, use the same motors, and weigh the same. Having some extra weight can't hurt in a pushing match.

They also look pretty swell in my opinion!

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Well I'm sorry I just sort of assumed they wouldn't look good, but i think pool noodles and fabric just wouldn't fit well with our theme of shiny objects (the T3 mantra: "If it's not shiny, what's the point?")

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Bumpers have been in the back of my mind, but we havn't really given that much serious thought to them. It will probably be one of those ship weekend afterthought add-ons.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

We're using bumpers mostly because we don't want overzealous zebras throwing flags about illegal contact if we didn't have them. The front and side bumpers do take some planning for going up the ramp. I personally don't think the added weight will make that much difference in traction and it will be that much more weight to have to accelerate.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Team 1501 will not be using bumpers.
With our design we could not get up the ramp without dragging them on the carpet.
IMHO, I think FIRST should have been a little more lenient. Why couldn't they say use the pool noodle(s) and keep them in the 2.5" to 8" range. We could have put one noodle all the way around or bot without any problem.
*puts flame suit on :) *

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

You could use shiny silver fabric.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Yeah, but then we would look like one of those shoddily-built props from an 80's science fiction movie.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Our frame is built to be sturdy enough to take lots of hits, the bumbers would probably help but we don't feel that we need them...

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

We don't have a frame, just bumpers.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Arghh.. After dealing with the COTS rule for the most however many years in FIRST and for the most part not having any problem with it, I am extremely disappointed in the non-COTS that FIRST have given us for supplies this year.

First it was a lack of finding the game balls, albeit one main supplier, a few rate hikers, or a chance encounter at a local store..

Now it is the fact that the bumper material material can only be bought on a few places on-line, and has a lead time of 4 weeks, oh.. and did I mention that the FIRST forums say that by the rules the bumpers have to be shipped with the robot? :mad: :mad:

So, pretty much what we have here is that if you didn't decide to have bumpers part of your robot from week 1 or 2, you are not getting them on your robot legally unless you use a less reliable fabric (also per the forums) vinyl, on your bumpers.

I rarely get this frustrated with FIRST, but this non-COTS for items mandatory (if you decide to use them) has got to stop!!!!
I hope this is discussed in a rules update soon, or someone from FIRST explains what a true same strength ("or similar material") is.
:mad:

Andy-Mark, if you guys are listening, please, please.. if bumpers are an option next year, order the material ahead of time and I will order it right from you.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Team 68 always comes up with a good robot, they caught my eyes back in 2002 at the championship.

... this is what I think, if your robot is really shiny and it isn't consistant, there is no point to it. I would much rather have an ugly robot that does what it suppose to do constantly.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

I'm pretty sure our team got our bumper fabric from a local crafts store. Have you tried buying it at a store instead of online?

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

No bumpers for our robot, how about 1/16" aluminum plate all around?
And what is this, anodized black??? Oh the horror.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Who says you have to choose?

Ah yes, armor plating. We bolted some 1/8" aluminum on the front of our bot last year after judges were ignoring a lot of ramming at the BoilerMaker regional. (Anodized black would look sweet. I don't know of anywhere around here that anodizes though, maybe I have to look harder)

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Yes, I have looked at a bunch of fabric stores, and we have a person checking an upholstery place today for the "correct fabric" (Cordura).

Greg, please PM me with the details of your post. I would like to make this happen before ship, and am losing hope of having the "correct" material (Cordura).

Thanks.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

1023 is using bumpers and they are finished. They were relatively inexpensive and didn't take long to make. All in all, I think that they are worth the time and expense.

Also, we ordered out Cordura on line and were able to get a discount and it came in pretty quickly.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Did you try www.ahh.biz ? That's where we got our material, it was shipped and received in a few days. (Top of Google ad list.)

I wouldn't castigate FIRST too much over this issue. You knew from Jan 7 what was required for bumpers. I am reminded of the saying that pops up on cubicles from time to time: "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

YESSSSS!!!!!! Finally.. some successful hunting in the elusive bumper outer material woes.

So, apparently this material is more suited to buy at an automotive upholstery shop than a fabric/craft store.

If anyone is going to make bumpers this last week of build in time to ship them with your robot (which apparently is required) go to an automotive upholstery shop.

We got ours finally, and in a team color. Sweet!

I heard (from another CD poster) that ahh.biz folks had a large lead time to buy them as well, and some other issues, so I didn't want to go with them and run into the same problems.

If they were mandatory to be on your robot I would agree with you, but requiring an optional item to be shipped within a deadline of 6 weeks when some teams don't think they want to use them until week 5 or 6, just is not right by my thoughts.

If it is optional, I don't see why it can't be made after week 6, and brought to the competition when you arrive on Thursday.

To me, that boggles my mind.

What about teams who come to their first regional expecting to not use bumpers, and then want to use them between their first regional and second, or regional and Championship event.

Are they not allowed to make bumpers, cause they had to be made (and shipped with the bot) within the 6-week time?

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Almost everything else is optional; why do we have to ship our (optional) CIMs with our (optional) kitbot frame? I think that it's pretty clear that the rules specify that bumpers must be produced within the limits of the robot construction rules. As such, the team that decides at their first regional that they want to use a bumper may construct it there, or they can use a post-competition fix-it window (but not the post-ship-date fix-it window) to make their upgrade. If they make it between the ship date and the first regional competition, they're cheating.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

From the definitions :
FIX-IT-WINDOWS – Two 5-hour work periods following the deadline for shipping the robot, or following the close of a regional competition, in which ALL teams may manufacture parts in preparation for future competitions.

Straight from the rules. The Q&A is misleading in their answers. According to the rules you may build and bring with you to competition 25 lbs.

<R29> Teams may bring a maximum of 25 pounds of custom FABRICATED ITEMS (SPARE PARTS, REPLACEMENT PARTS, and/or UPGRADE PARTS) to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their robot at the competition site.

However : <R17> During the “FIX-IT WINDOWS” following the shipment of the robot: During this period, all teams may utilize one or two 5-hour FIX-IT-WINDOWS to manufacture SPARE and REPLACEMENT PARTS and
develop software for their robot at their home facility. Fabrication of UPGRADE PARTS is not permitted during this period.

Then : <R19> At the competitions: Teams are allowed to repair, modify or upgrade their competition robots while participating in a competition event. To support this, teams may bring SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS and COTS items to the competitions (within the limits specified in Rules <R28> and <R29>).

From all of this I believe that you can build and bring the bumpers with you to competition as they must weigh under 15 lbs. There are more rules to support building them after end of season than there are to say you can't. I have yet to see it stated that the Q&A's are official. That is what the updates are for. I had someone last year tell me straight up that they enforce the rules not the Q&A.

It is still your call on how you handle the situation.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

That's what I thought at first too, but.:

http://forums.usfirst.org/showthread...umper+shipping

Spells it out pretty well right there. :(

So, the Q&A is not applicable in this case from what you are saying?? Why is there a Q&A system in place if it's not going to be enforced?

Seems like a real waste of time in that case.

Btw, <R16> is as follows - The rule that pretty much is the basis f the 6 weeks time limit:

Quote:

<R16> During the Build Season: During the period between the Kick-off and robot shipment deadline, teams are to design and fabricate all the components and mechanisms required to complete their robot. They are encouraged to use all the materials, sources and resources available to them that are in compliance with the rules of the 2006 FIRST Robotics Competition. As the robot shipment deadline approaches, all work on the robot must cease and the robot must be placed in a “hands-off” condition. The entire robot (including all FABRICATED ITEMS intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the robot)must be crated and out of team hands by the robot shipment deadline.

I don't know man.. I'm just glad we found the right material today.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

I think that teams that have some extra bumper materials: plywood, noddles, L angles and cordura, should bring them to the competitions. They're relatively easy to fabricate even at a competition and given the help and support teams give each other should be a feasible mid-competition upgrade. I know my team has done far more radical changes than adding bumpers to our robot at competitions. We are bringing spare bumpers and I suppose we'll see how much abuse they take and if its not a problem could even possibly loan them out. (They should attach to kitbot frames pretty easily.)

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

<R16> does not say anything about the Fix-it window.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

That definition covers both types of fix-it window: post-ship and post-competition, but does not differentiate. Read alone, Steve's interpretation might be right, but since the rules are later spelled out differently for each case (<R17> and <R20>), you can't use the broader definition to contradict the specific wording of the rule itself. Note carefully that you can't fabricate upgrade parts during the post-ship fix-it window; unless your robot already has the capability, you can't consider a bumper a spare or replacement—it is an upgrade, and illegal to manufacture during this period. During the post-competition fix-it windows, you may make upgrades, and therefore may make your bumpers then.

<R29> does not say where the 25 lbs of material comes from, only that it may be brought to the competition. You still have to obey the construction rules, especially <R16> through <R19>. As a matter of fact, though <R16> does not refer specifically to the bumpers, FIRST clarified that the bumpers are part of the robot, and are therefore covered under <R16>.

It's clear in the rules as written, and not contradicted by an update or Q&A: you must fabricate your bumpers during the build season, at the competitions, and/or during the post-competition fix-it windows. The sole exception is if you are making spare or replacement bumpers (meaning that you shipped fully functional, or functional but defective bumpers with the robot), in which case you may also use the post-ship fix-it windows to make spares or replacements (but not upgrades).

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

its hard to find noodles in the winter but we did it was a fun road trip for me and the guys too

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

Our team originally planned on skipping the bumpers. In the past our frame has never been damaged. The more we have considered what other teams may be bringing to the competition we have changed our mind. We feel that there are going to be a lot more bots whose main function is defense. It could get a little ugly. Those of you with ramping problems, have you thought about using the bumpers on just two sides? Just a thought.

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

we are doing bumpers just because of the added 15 lbs... and ours will look cool

Re: Are you actually using bumpers?
 

We're just planning to take some pool noodles that we already have and maybe some fabric to VCU. If it turns out we need the, we'll nip down to the hardware store, grab some plywood and bang out a set of bumpers. (Not pretty bumpers mind you) Personally I've advocated them since the beginning, but others don't agree.