Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

The TechnoKats have 2 (nearly) identical robots that are almost complete. We will be shipping 1 and using the other for driving practice.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

That is interesting, but yeah that can be a good idea. We only have one robot though.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

We have two. We built the practice robot first, then built the competition robot.

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That's also what HOT does

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

1293 has two robots that are close enough, Chomp and Circumstance. (Circumstance doesn't get all the bells and whistles of Chomp--2004 RC, the steel sprockets from the kit versus the IFIs on Chomp, less attacking with the Slugbuster...)

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

Its amazing you can afford to build more than one bot. We barely made it to one! Good luck with practice!

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We have last years robot to practice with. We may not have the same arm but good practice.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

Quick question. How do you manage to build two robots in six weeks? We aren't even going to be finished with one!!!

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We kind of have 2....the daily driver and the toy....The real bot and the "freshman bot".

The freshman bot does donuts wicked good, it was built before kickoff just to put a jump pack on the freshmen's brains. Worked out well. I have fun crashing it just as well as driving it.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

We build two identical(except for paint) robots. Or as nearly identical as we can get with the exception of OI and some other minor things. We ship one and practice with one. We also have a full field(almost completely donated) to practice on. Some may say we are a have team, and I will openly agree to that statement, but we also try to open our facility up to as many people as want to come. We recognize that there are teams with little to no funding available for things that we take for granted some times, and therefore try to level the playing field a little. The only reason that we manage to get two complete robots in 6 weeks is a lot of hard work, a lot of donated machining, and asking for two of everything. Yea we have to buy a lot of stuff to do two(motors etc), but our twin usually ends up being scrapped after the first or second competition, mostly so that we have spare parts. With teams usually making a lot of spare parts they too could be able to do this. Also when we build our two, we build them at the same time. Usually we have a mentor showing students how to do stuff on one, and then the students doing it on the other. In that way we are also able to show the students how things are done, and then the engineers have a lot less to worry about come competition time because the students can fix a majority of the problems that may arise.

Picture here http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pi...&quiet=Verbose

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

To put what Jon said in simple terms, at least, as it was when I was there

We build them at the same time. When you're making one part, make two, when you're making two, make four. It is a lot more work, but as Jon said, it gives students more experience in helping build the robot, often times, the engineer will build something with the student for one robot and give the work for the twin to the student, and simply help if it's asked. The second robot can be good for taking apart and explain things as well as driving. The second robot for RAGE is often mostly disassembled a day or two before a regional since that's our spare parts. It's a great way to learn things about the robot and get some driving practice in. The "evil twin" for RAGE is often beaten on and driven into the ground, as well as making us able to do demos during the competition season on the current game with our "current" robot, so if some one comes to the demo and then comes to the UTC regional (since it's closest to us) it's easier for them to recognize us (as if the bright red shirts don't do it)

Oh, and if you ever want to use the practice facility, contact Jon, who will contact our team leader to get you in. It's on main street in East Hartford and has a soda machine. :)

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

I wish. We can barely afford one robot. Driver practice includes driving from the hallway to the classroom to test code/work on it and then Thursday at regionals.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

So that's legal? It'd be nice if my team worked hard enough to do that since our regional is one of the last few...

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

I know of five California teams building two robots.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

we had been using our old robots for driver training before we finished. Now we are using our competition bot for driver training

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

For the first time ever we have built a twin.
We are very excited to see if it makes a difference. I am just afraid that the results will be so great that there will be no turning back and we will be twinning forever! :ahh:

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

We build two every year. I think it helps. We get our competition bot working, then work out all the kinks in the practice/prototype bot. We also train our drivers on the second bot that we keep here. We have 4 robots now in our shops.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

We have 2.
The one that you have been seeing mostly on our photo album is the prototype.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

MOE (365) also builds two bots. The second isn't identical, often using less sturdy structural parts, but it is similar enough to train the drivers. (Since there is no "robot to robot" interaction, we don't need to have the additional protection.) We name both of the bots, our competition bot is Ter-MOE-nator, and this years practice bot is MOE-jo. (One of the mentors suggested that the second bot should be called "Two-MOE-nator".)

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

YEAH! another team that is completely behind schedule. The advantage you have is that you've probably had more code test time than we've had :D

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We don't have the manpower or the resources to build a second robot, we usually struggle to get the first one done on time.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

Laser cutting and bending its not much more time at all. but when it comes to machining, painting, wiring and assembly its brutal.
When you have to make a change you've scrapped 2 parts.

Not to mention ducking your boss.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

yeah we have two robots also we built the practice robot first then we built the competition robot this allows us to get the kinks out on the first one to make improvements to the actual one and we still have to practice so it is a little bit more stressful and during times of the season we thouht we were never going to get done but we are just relaxing today and waiting for the fed x truck so we did a good job. :) it gives us a break for a while and it is the time needed i have stayed here until 9:00 every night and sometimes 10 everynight this season except for on fridays everyone's day usually ended at 4 to 5. :cool:

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

Though I'm sure two bots is advantageous.. I wonder if it's really in the spirit of FIRST to build two. It seems to me that the 6 weeks allotted to the teams from Early January to Late February is meant for Design, Build, Program, Debug, and Train. Having the second bot after the deadline to continue to Program, Debug, and Train is a grey area FIRST hasn't addressed. I'm going to bring this up to a few people and see how people feel about it.

Perhaps some guidelines on the matter will be published in next years game.

As far as the team I mentor, we are a very "by the book" sort of team, and until it is addressed specifically, and we are given the go ahead, we will continue to build only one robot.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

While FIRST has adressed the programming end of it, they haven't really wanted to touch the rest in the past. Plus teams are not allowed to bring in their practice bot to competitions, another issue adressed in the past. As Dean has also said the competition isn't designed to be fair, and I think there would be a lot of not so happy teams if FIRST told them that they were no longer able to build two robots. FIRST also relies heavily on teams telling the truth and being honest when it comes to the not programming, and I feel that that is fine, if a team wants to cheat then it does nothing but give them a bad cloud hanging over their own heads.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

The twin robot debate has come up on these forums every season. I come from a generally "by the book" team as well, and used to think it was an unfair advantage to teams who did have the manpower and resources to build a second bot. But I've since graduated (long ago it seems... was 2002 really 4 years ago already?), and now have the opportunity to see the program from the volunteer perspective. What it comes down to is the competition portion of FRC is more a means to an end. The competition is (as was clearly stated in the opening video of last year's events) a celebration (a means) of all the hard work put in over the 6 week build period. The end is students inspired by learning and having fun working together to address real-world problems, and coming up with creative solutions. Of course, most students won't see that (or admit to it) while working on the robot, or competing as students (as I didn't), but once they graduate and look at it from a mentoring or volunteering perspective, it all starts to make sense. I do still see the gray area, and potential to circumvent some of the rules (fix-it window, programming, continuing to prototype and test mechanisms after shipping), but ultimately, if the students walk away with a positive experience with an open mind towards careers in engineering, regardless of the outcome of any given event, isn't that the goal of FIRST in the FIRST place? (no pun intended.. really...)

That said, my team has never had the time or resources to build a second bot. We've always used the previous year's robot to practice driving (we've always used tank drive, and it's been fairly consistent over the years). I'd also go out on a limb and say an identical practice bot may not provide as much of an advantage as most would think. It's one thing to get used to how a robot handles, and learn the quirks of driving any robot on a field by itself. It's a completely different ballgame when it's thrown on a field with 5 other robots buzzing all around with all sorts of cheering/music/noise everywhere. One robot that can score 20 balls in the 3 point goal by itself would get shoved around by a defensive bot, and would be lucky to score 5 in competition. It's all about the conditions of how the second bot operates, and as long as it's not used to blatantly break the fix-it window rules, I don't think it's a bad thing to have if the time and materials are available. Even if it puts some teams at a slight advantage, I don't think it lessens the value of inspiration or the work put in by either them, or other teams.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

yes we did for pratice once we ship our robot, this robot will also become our spare parts.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

Team Rush builds two. We are not a "HAVE TEAM," we just know how to expertly manage our time, money and resources.

When it comes to machining set-up is always the time killer. So making more than one part isn't all that costly. It takes more time if we have to re-setup and make parts later. With two bots you get all of the practice time you need, and you get to use the entirety of the six weeks to manufacture.

We drove the completed bot for about an hour last night.......we now have two weeks to learn how to actually use the thing!

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

I got into a debate with a by the rules mentor. Their stance was it was overall unfair to even build it. By the statement that was made, all teams with a robot from previous years would have to turn them over due to the fact that they have a robot and rookies do not.

Is it fair to build two robots of the same design and materials so you can keep one: Not 100%.

Is it fair to build a robot that can only be used to tweak Autonomous Mode and drive practice, with no extra mechanisms: If you are in a week 1-2 regional and then Atlanta, Yes. (This is the route I would take if I could)

A benefit, perhaps, is alliances. If you got two so-so teams who have little practice time paired with a team that had a practice bot, that would compensate. Even with only driving practice, it could buy you some time.

Too each is their own motives and goals.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

Team 87 is planning on it this year. It be as identical as our BOM, 3-D models, and photo documentation can provide. Only the rudimentary parts of it are built now. Esp since we were still cutting, modifying, and otherwise breaking Diablo last night.

This will be our first, but the reasons were simple. For those that know us, we've had some issues over the past few years with the mentors who drove the construction. They sort of forgot those younger, student-type people who are the heart of this program. Myself and the advisors from the school decided we were taking back the program before my company decided it wasn't going to sponsor us. (Sad but it would have come to that is a year or two) Now we've got a large number of kids who aren't used to the tools. Between that and not wanting to have the kids out too many days for competitions, we decided a 2nd robot made more sense then another regional. It also gives us a good chance to get more students involved and comfortable with the tools.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

Now that I think about it, we could. But we won't. I see it as one more thing to seperate the have's from the have not's, and as such, immoral. Ideally, rookies and 12 year veterans are on a level playing field in every arena but ingenuity and work ethic.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

We built 2 robots for the first time this year. First we dismantled last year's and built one, then once we learned from our mistakes, we hustled to build the competition one. Once you build one, building a second one just like it is a lot easier. Now we get to keep the scrap one here at school to play with before competition.

neat how you call it a twin. I guess ours is more of a clone.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

If first makes a rule to only make one machine it takes a load off my plate the other engineers plate and the machinest plate. Its not me that loses, the kids will lose. No practice time, no program time, no spare parts, less chance for a student to get some assembly time, less chance to experience what engineers do.

Go ahead first make the rule......NOTE( there will be teams out there to break the rule)

The only gripe here is have teams verse have nots Same as NASCAR.
What if you had two different teams building the same machine what then!!!

Dean said the teams are not fair thats the real world. The goal is the same show students what science and technology is like not to cry when someone else has an advantage.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

For those who take the stance that it is not "fair" or ethical/moral to build a second robot, and keeping this point SEPARATE from any discussion of whether it is allowed by rule or not ...

How is this any different from a team concepting, designing, developing, building, testing, and perfecting a new drive-train (or other mechanism/system) in the off-season, then re-building it after kickoff to stay "within the rules" ??

I don't believe I have seen any discussion on that topic ...

Remember the primary goal of FIRST - to Inspire students to consider careers in science/technology/engineering by immersing them in a "real-world" type of problem solving environment. A second prototype/backup/practice robot is merely a form of risk mitigation - something that is absolutely required in any technology environment.

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

We have built a second robot that is very close to our final design that we will be using to practice with. We also have enough parts to build a third based on original designs that we did not use. We might do this for practice competition. Our first design was completely different than what we came up with for our final production robot. We could see what our robot would do against something different. :cool:

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

For those of you that think it is a gray area in FIRST ... it is not a gray area at all. FIRST knows about second robots and have tailored this year's rules around the second robots. The rules are as constraining as possible while still allowing a practice robot.

I can tell you this: my students are excited, inspired, and are just having a great time driving the robot and shooting balls. We have a new form of dodge ball called "See if you can hit Copioli while he's walking by ..." where the students try to have the robot shoot balls at me and actually hit me.

Anyway, how about this: you inspire your way and I'll inspire mine. A second robot is within the rules and I won't tell you you're wrong for not building one if you don't accuse me of not being "by the book". "The book" is the rules manual and is does not disallow the practice robots.

By the way, if FIRST did make a rule specifically banning practice robots, then teams like ours would not have been able to loan it out at two separate off season competitions to get other teams inspired about FIRST. Again, FIRST is about more than just the competition.

-Paul

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

building more than 1 :ahh: we are lucky if we get one done in time :D

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

I have no qualms against teams building 2 robots. I used to though. But really, it's just a representation of the real world: you don't always have the funding or resources to best your opponent, so you must then make a better product with what you have.

FYI, we can't and never have been able to build 2, though we would like to

Re: Any other teams building more than 1 robot?
 

Building two robots has several advantages not mentioned here.

1. The students get a lesson in materials / cost management - save resources.

2. Students see a brief look at the importance of detailed plans and drawings.

3. Students get twice as much time fabricating and using the machines ( student labor/creation accounts for at least 90% of our robot. The other labor being Mike A. (Delphi), Mark N. (Delphi) and myself).

4. A robot to take to media events during the season to promote FIRST.

5. A robot to allow the students to modify it in any way at the end of the season and during class.