Food for thought
 

Just out of curiosity i was wondering how many teams actually build their own robots. Because ive asked around at a lot of competitions and it seems that most teams ship out their robot to be built for them, or even jsut designed for them. I found this ironic considering the spirit of first is about learning and doing things yourself so why do so many teams ship out their entire robot or the majority of their robot to be built for them? because my team's entire robot is hand made and i think that says something about our team. Just some food for thought.

Re: Food for thought
 

We have been in FIRST for 4 years and we always design, build, program, and use our robot. The kids that is. The robot was always hand made. This year for the first time we got a connection with someone who could CNC parts for us. Since we don't have the necessary knowledge or funds we used this connection to CNC our transmitions. That is the only outsourced thing in our robot. If you see it its all handmade and hand cut exept for teh transmission. Actualy we first made the transmissions by hand and they were very imperfect. We got them CNC'd and now they function perfectly. Some parts you do need to outsource but most fo the work should be done at least by the students.

Re: Food for thought
 

Our team builds our own robot completely by ourselves, but yeah it is rather common to see that some teams robots are built completey by some engineering companies and then given to them to learn how to drive, but oo well. The building process is really fun for our team, lot sof laughs and inside jokes.

Re: Food for thought
 

I have been a mentor for over 6 years now, and I have never met a team yet that sent their robot out to someone else to be designed, fabricated or assembled.

Some things that might be leading to confusion:

1. The engineer mentors ARE part of the team, equals with the students in every aspect, except the adults cannot drive during the competitions.

2. In real life engineers dont fabricate parts, they create drawings that are given to machinst, or sent to machine shops that specialize in part fabrication. Usually those parts come back and are assembled by a technician, then the engineers test and debug the design. Dont confuse sending individual parts out to be fabricated with having someone else build your whole robot for you.

3. Any outside fabrication of work of any kind done on the robot must be accounted for (normal shop rates $$$) in the total cost of the robot. It would be impossible to get someone to build your robot for you and stay within the total allowed budget.

Over the years I have only heard of one team that went to the extreem: It was a rookie team, and the only mentor was a shop teacher who locked himself in his shop for 5 weeks and built the entire robot himself, then gave it to the students to practice driving. Things like this happen sometimes, but its becoming pretty unusual. By the end of the first year, when teams have been to competitions the mentors 'get it' and a good balance is established between student build and mentor built.

(BTW, That team with the mentor locked by himself in the shop for 5 weeks folded at the end of the year. The sponsors were VERY upset and pulled the plug).

Re: Food for thought
 

Ken first of all great thread topic. I think overall most teams build most of the robot by themselves. Some of the posts on here refer to sending some parts out but not having the whole thing machined by someone else. This is sometimes and many times the case with some teams. One thread in particular about a transmission fabrication really stood out. My team did custom gearboxes for the first year this year and as a person who is involved in learning about manufacturing I will like to say a few things. People have no idea sometimes when building a transmission how tight tolerances have to be in order for it work and how to machine things to those type of tolerances, this takes a person with skill and prior knowledge to pull such a feat off. Sometimes many people as in the case of a transmission for a robot. Also what someone posted earlier about how in the real word there are engineers, technicians and fabricators is absolutely correct. My team works with Sonny's a car wash factory and when I go there I get to to see all these things under one roof and it's amazing to see .

I like the thread,
- Drew

Re: Food for thought
 

This is our 4th year as a team, and we've always designed and built it ourselves. We've had various parts sent out to be machined for us, but that's only because we lack the equipment to do them ourselves. 2 years ago we sent out our frame schematics so it coul dbe built and welded, and the company did a horrible job on it; one of the side walls was crooked! Not that that's the whole reason we built it ourselves, but where's the fun in having some big company design and build it for you? Beyond that, what's the point in even joining FIRST if you're not going to learn anything because you didn't do any of the work yourself? Seems pointless to me.

Re: Food for thought
 

First of all, welcome to ChiefDelphi!
The debate about student-built vs. mentor-built robots occurs each season on ChiefDelphi and usually has the same results - there is no "right way" to model a FIRST team. Every team is unique. FIRST's goals are not to "teach" but to "inspire" - if you are inspired to appreciate science and technology by building the robot yourself, wonderful! If you are inspired to appreciate science and technology by observing professionals at work, wonderful! There are lots of threads on CD on this topic - instead of adding more to this one, do a search and find one already posted. And after reading through it if you feel you have more to offer, please add to that one.
I'm an alum from Baldwin Senior High School so I wish your team success this coming season!

Re: Food for thought
 

one last thought: if the idea of sending parts out to be fabricated bothers you, go back and look at all the stuff that came in the kit of parts. The control system, the motors, the pneumatics, the compressor, the wires, the battery....

Imagine if you REALLY had to build everything from scratch! It would be impossible.

Re: Food for thought
 

ohk i know you said look for other threads but i have one last point. look at the new pic from team 1501 now not to take a shot at their team but honestly they must have a pretty high tech shop to build that by themselves. just to prove my point because most responses said that they build their own robot so i was just curious about 1501. Although as other replies have said there is no "right" way so watever works for your team i was just throwing the idea out there

Re: Food for thought
 

4th year team here, 2nd year on it for me, and we've always had a student designed/built robot. We've had mentors machine complex parts for us and some other random stuff, but we do end up doing most of the machining and other stuff.

Re: Food for thought
 

Though I have not been on Delphi any where close to as long as many of my piers (only 3 years) I have been on long enough to hear this discussion half a million times. If you really do want to talk about it more I suggest you use the moderated discussion forum.

KathieK has got it right, this subject really has been beaten to death over the past few years, with very new insight added to it. If you really do have something other than "we built our robot all by ourselves" "we learn from our mentors building it" or "we have the exact right mix" then feel free to do so in a moderated setting. Otherwise I strongly suggest you let this dead horse lie.

Re: Food for thought
 

Actually....

All you need you need is:

1. A 1:1 plot of the part you are making, like a sidewall
2. Cut out your 1:1 plot.
3: Glue it on a piece of wood.
4. Cut out your peice of wood, this is called a FORMER block
5. Take your piece of wood to your alumium sheet.
6. Use a 1/2" circle with a hole in it to trace around your wood to make a 1/2 halo around the FORMER block.
7. Cut out your alumium piece with TIN SNIPS.
8. Use your former block to pound the edges together.
9. Klecko the thing together, when your happy, RIVET it.


Seriously....that is IT...no CNC mill or LASER cutting required. It's VERY SIMPLE to make a robot like this...

I am electrical, and I saw the kids make it they catch on fast.

Re: Food for thought
 

Lightning Robotics has been both a Mentor Driven team and a Student Driven team.
Back in 2000 and 2001 (as 465) a lot of the robot work was done by mentors.

In 2002 with a new sponsor we switched to a Student Driven team and have been that way ever since.
Last year we were worried about losing our machining capabilities, both access to the shop and mentors who had access to it, so we created our Hacksaw & Drill philosophy. We used this last year, designing the robot so that it could be using only simple hand tools. It worked extremely well.
We used it again this year with one difference, we did lose easy access to our sponsors machine shop.

The Hacksaw & Drill philosophy also allows more student involvement, a hacksaw requires much less training time than a band saw, and is safer to use. As a result our robots are almost 100% student built.

Now this is how our team operates, I know other teams operate differently and thats fine.

As for Student vs. Mentor built a lot of that can depend on the resources available to each team. It's common knowledge that some teams have better funding, or lots of mentors, or facilities better suited to build and test a robot. If they have them they should use them. Each team has its own way of carrying out the vision of FIRST.

Re: Food for thought
 

We used to build the frame to our robot then send it off to get welded. DuPont's safety standards don't allow welding in our workshop.

In 2004, we started using Bosch Tubing to build our frame. We still got it welded, but you can't weld that stuff well. The welding was really unnecessary anyway, and we haven't welded any frames since. Bosch Tubing is sturdy stuff and we don't have to wait for the welders anymore. :)

Re: Food for thought
 

Thanks for the off handed complement (high tech shop).
Our robot this year was 95% built by us. The other 5% were the trannies. They were manufactured and donated by one of our sponsors but assembled by the students.
Last year we built our awesome robot (shameless plug :D ) in a church basement wood shop. That's right, a wood shop. Our high tech tools were a band saw, a table saw and a drill press. Along with the Clecos and Cleco pliers.
This year we built it in a warehouse from space donated by another of our sponsors. They let us use their Bridgeport and lathe.
We used the Bridgeport to mill our sprockets and to drill the 6 hole wheelchair wheel pattern. The lathe was used to create joining parts for the wheelchair wheels for our shooter. we could not use students for these processes as they were building the bot, the electrical board and doing the programming.
As Chakorules stated all we do is form aluminum over a high tech wood form block.

Re: Food for thought
 

CJBonez, I understand where you're coming from as I'm also from a team in which students do all of the building of the robot. I wouldn't have it any other way because I take great pride in our robot at the end of each season. It's a great accomplishment to be able to compete against robots that were sent away somewhere to be precision laser welded or something. I know that I'm not going to be in the pit polishing up the robot like some other teams. We're definitely going to be working out some of the kinks during practice. Just take pride in your robot and have fun. I've learned so much by building the robot with my own two hands rather than having the robot built by somebody else.

Re: Food for thought
 

As a student on 1501, i can honestly say our robot is student built. The mentors are there to teach us and show us how to do things safely. As far as our work shop goes take a look at our workshop last year, there are tons of pictures here, oh and here are the basic tools for monocque construction. The only thing that has changed since last year is that we have more space and a mill and a lathe. The mill and the lathe are there for the students to learn how to use. I know many teams that have a lot more than 1501 does.

Re: Food for thought
 

I totally agree, i see a lot of parts that are simply purchased from the store and strapped on, and it underminds the whole .. lets be on the forefront of engineering, that is why we custom made our 2 traction wheels, and custom shooting wheel rather then simply purchasing them. Also we find they save a lot of weight!

Its hard to balance letting a student do it and a mentor doing it, i know, especially since you have to spend so much time teaching the student to do it, but an idea: if they do it horribly wrong/really bad that it has to be redone, by a mentor this time, both tasks get done,, the student gets experience and the final product is good. Thats still better then just the mentor doing it from the start!

Re: Food for thought
 

Personally, I don't care if it's 100% student built or mostly mentor built or a mixture of students or engineers building. If it gets to the competition and works the way it is supposed to and does what it is supposed to, I don't care. If the students get the picture of what engineering is and are Inspired, I don't care. I would prefer a 50-50 mix, but I don't care what your mix is, as long as it does what works for you.

It's been said that "100% student built" is pretty much ignored by the judges. I can believe it, because half the teams out there say that. How about letting the mentors guide you through the engineering process, from the project requirements to delivery of the product? Including helping with the build or doing some building themselves? Wouldn't the robot turn out better that way than if a bunch of students spent 5 weeks struggling with the game, then spent 1 week going with the first design that looked good or was the coolest?

Re: Food for thought
 

7 years of Big MO and this is my 4th year on the team. Every year we concept the robot and make the parts out of wood then we have pars made that have to be precise made, and anything welded we mook up and hold together so it can be sent out to be welded. We in the past have ordered out frame thru 80/20 but for the this year and last year we have used extruded aluminum frame which was welded. 2 years ago we used a 1/4 inch thick aluminum plate (bad idea, but we won a regional). For the past 3 years we have used the same drive train and have only have 1 ort 2 chains break, and we have a total of 5 chains on each side.

When you say building a robot completely by the students i hope he is refering to assembly or parts and final construction. Because almost every robot has to have a precision part and if not something bad might happen.

For instance, in this years game you might want to have a precise motor mount for your shooter if you h a direct drive. If your motor is not secure you might run into shafts breaking and wheels flying.

Most parts on the robot do not needt to be precise but not every team is able to have a robot building spot such as GM or other corporate giant. These teams that do not need to have parts made outside of there shop, these teams might need outside fabrication. And if you think of what FIRST is trying to get us kids tolearn, it truly is just to make us further our knowledge by learning mechanical, electrical, programming skills. They are not saying we have to completely design, fabricate, and build our robot. But understand how things work and new innovative ideas on how to do things. :)

Re: Food for thought
 

we design, build, and erm.... change our own robot. all student work. we do get input from the mentors because well hey, what else are they there for? but its all about the students.

Re: Food for thought
 

1568 is a second year team, and ive been on it for both years, as a driver and a college student now, it is still a student built team, with some adult help, the team is small and everything is done by everyone, there are no sub teams except for programming, being smallm helps us get the job done, the most widely used tool is the drill, and a tablesaw.

Re: Food for thought
 

Last year, Division by Zero worked with ThunderChickens and Dynamos for a large portion of the design. Many of the parts were built by them and then shipped to us, but that was mostly because they had the better facilities. Everything was also assembled and tested by the individual teams. In the end, if you looked at pictures of the robots side by side yes they were simular but they were also very unique.

We were a coalition. A team of teams, working together and exchanging ideas. Personally, I feel that is very much with in the spirit of FIRST. Much more so than if someone sat in their own little corner and said, no we're not talking to anyone. I think its really cool how teams help each other out in the pits, and we then extended it to build season.

There's quite likely someone out here who knows more about the details then I do but figured I'd throw it out there.