Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

While is only Friday night, there are a lot of folks who are sharing their thoughts and comments on the regionals they've seen.

While there is some value to keeping things in the discussions about the various regionals, there are some messages that are better captured under one thread.

So... ...here it is.

Joe J.

P.S. You can hate this year's game, that is okay, but try to keep name calling out of the messages and make an attempt to be as contructive in your criticsim as you can.

P.P.S. You are allowed to love this year's game too. Just so you know ;-)

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

This is what Greg Perkins said in another thread.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

From what I've seen so far I think that this game will play pretty well. Given the right conditions I think that this will be a very fast paced and exiting game once the drivers and the teams get used to the period switch's. I did like last years game allot though.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

iCurtis replied with this:

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

What I feel, watching the videos, is that as was said before, defence is king, more so than I have seen since Stack Attack. Secondly, though most teams are shooting, the corner goals seem unguarded most of the time. A robot with either good speed or power stands a good chance of getting to a corner goal at least once during a match, and if they have a good load of balls, could swing the match. Once someone is in the corner, you cannot get them out. Finally, though the ramp seems like a golden match winner, most alliances seem to only have 1 or 2 ramp climbers, and often they still have difficulties. A teams that can fly up the ramp whenever it's needed would seem to be a valuable team-mate.

Regardless, I see this as a game that could change dramatically as the year goes on. Not just in efficiency, but how the entire game balances.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I've found that autonomous is extremely important. All that an alliance has to do is to score some balls in the center or the side during autonomous, get the bonus and turn the rest of the match into a brawl. With that said, I think that this will change as time goes on. Later in the year, more teams will have working auto modes and the margin of victory will be much smaller leading to some competitive matches during operator control.

Along with that, it seems that any good shooting robot will not get its chance to prove what its got. I have seen a number of excellent shooters fire off three or four balls into the goal, then get pounded to pieces.

Finally, I have to say that FIRST really did good with the autonomous. Instead of it simply being a bonus that didn't have much impact on the game, they have made it something very meaningful. Teams are creating some awesome autonomous modes, and some are even modifying their programs depending on who they are facing. When auto mode started in 2003, I never would have thought that there would be_defensive_programs designed to only mess up other teams. This will certainly be an interesting game to watch as it develops over the season and the off season.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I would also agree with Greg Perkins that following the game proved to be very difficult for people outside of FIRST, especially if they were seeing it for the first time. Sometimes, the announcer would say how the decision was made for offense/defense positions at the start, but other times, there would be no mention. To an onlooker, it would seem almost at random. My only recommendation is at the front desk for regionals (visitor entrance), have a small flyer visitors can take with them that explains the game as simply as possible. I've kept track of the rules but during some of those webcast matches, I would lose track of who was on offense/defense.

The corner goals didn't seem to be as emphasized as I thought they might be, especially for those robots that couldn't shoot. Many of them seemed to have been playing defense and then running to the ramp at the end but I think the key teams are going to be those with robots that can shoot well under pressure and make it to the ramp at the end. Ball collecting takes a lot of time and, from the scores, those that had the shooters definitely caused the scores to jump higher.

My favorite parts of the VCU regional were those autonomous shooters. Those robots really tip the balance in favor of their respective teams. Once they have sunk their balls in the goal, the match, quite a few times, was already set. Congratulations to all those teams though during the first week. Some of those designs were absolutely mindboggling (shooting from the ramp at an angle of 80 degrees). It is a complex game though and it was amazing to see how teams worked around various problems which allowed them to participate.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

From my few hours of watching matches at VCU, i have seen this.

I feel like that there will be a different type of play will come about in the elimination rounds as the Alliances that have the best chance will be made of this: 1 robot that can shoot, 1 robot that can use the side goals amazingly and 1 robot that can get up that ramp easily and not be so tipsy on impact.

i see 222 as a top pick with their access point of how they shoot. They get up on the ramp easily and shoot the balls then. It does two things, get them protection from other bots that can't handle the ramp and they don't have to worry about anything getting in their way of shooting.

The autonomous is and still will be important in the elimination rounds. I have only seen a few robots with effective shooting capabilities in auto. As stated above in this thread, i also see that changing as the regional goes on and as the weeks go by. By the time we get to Championships, i will guess that 4/6 will have an affective auto mode to score points for their alliance.

With a few remarks on the periods, i saw that some teams didn't even try to get on the proper side for the specified 'back bot' and get penalized. that should not be happening, and needs to get told by the coach's of the alliance.

The shooting that takes place during their Offense mode is different then what i had expected coming into this year's game. I have noticed a few robots that get away from others to shoot like team 343 did, they waited until the last few seconds were the alliance they were made of had gone for the ramp and then got behind the opposing robots made a few balls in the last second, great decision.

As the Defense goes, i love it! It too does remind me of Stack Attack of how important the ramp was at the end of the match. It has a big part of this years game and if your getting hit by 2 robots while your trying to shoot or just get to the side goals is hard to deal with. I have noticed a lot of robot with casters and other things that will have your robot spin if hit form that side. I was really against that call from the start to think, if we have to get somewhere and we can easily be moved, that will waste that precious time we have and will make the drivers readjust every time a hit form the side.

other then that, i love the game and can't wait till FLR!

p.s. my longest post ever. yay.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

How easily do robots without bumpers get damaged?

Why is the ramp so difficult.

Anybody know where i can find replays

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Actually, I do not agree with this. Team 213 has used the dumping method for side unloading in Manchester. On average we can get 28-29 balls into the corner goal if we have 30 in the machine. Take a look at our machine. We do about 9-10 balls in autonomous on either corner goal (left or right).

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Alright, I'm going to nit-pick here.

Is it possible to have a more viewer-friendly ranking screen? I remember the rankings in 2004 were great, with numbers and team names in large friendly letters. You had your rank, the short name, the W/L/T, and average RP. This year, the look is cluttered, and it doesn't really fit well visually with the other graphics shown on the big screen (save, perhaps, the sponsors loop showing at VCU). I can't even make out the headings--I can only guess some things based on context (for example, nothing besides the W/L/T record has a format of 3-4-1).

That said, I can decently track what's on the field, and the announcements of the next periods came in clearly for me. It might be a VCU thing, but it works well. Tracking who's ahead is decent, but they really need to leave the RTS up.

Flags seem to be doing a well enough job for me.

Excuse the nit-picking,

Billfred

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I'm wanting to know more about the ramp. I read here that usually 1 or 2 robots per alliance make it up, but with trouble. Are the 5 extra points really worth that 10 seconds? Do most teams at least try for it, or are they scoring to the bitter end and ignoring it like the behind the line bonus from last year? Are there many robots that fall over whiling trying to get up the ramp like expected?

Couple other questions...

• Do defense robots nest next to the corner goals like everyone has been speculating?
• What is the normal strategy for free for all period? Is there more scoring or defense?
• Are comebacks often from alliances that don't win autonomous mode?
• how hard really is it to tell if your on offense or defense if you are the drivers/coach/hp?

I am going to try to catch more matches tomorrow, I have to go to a friend's house with the NASA channel. Good luck to all teams, thanks to everyone in advance.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

It is definitely a fun game! I think it is well-balanced in that it gives veterans a good chance to show off by shooting and rookies a fair shot with the corner goals and defense.

Previous posts have said most of what I observed. But, I am in the process of re-rendering some BAE footage for the web and will post in about an hour so you can see for yourself.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I dont' really see myself agreeing with a lot of things that have been said in this forum so far. At NJ at least there are numerous teams that can score in the center goal from their starting locations. Also I don't think we've had a problem with telling who's on defense and what not...it's fairly simple to explain to people...whatever side has the green light lit is the team that's scoring.

Also yes the defense is important, but we have one team (25) that can get all 10 of their preloaded balls through the center in auto...that's 30 pts, and almost guaranteed the 10 point bonus...that's hard to defend against...no matter what you think.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

It depends on your function. A shooter than can only get one ball every 5-10 seconds is better off heading for the ramp at 15 seconds. A 1-pt. dumper can often exceed the point differential given for the ramp, especially if there's a likelihood of getting just two machines up there. More often than not, we've opted for another load of 10 or so balls.

It seems that most teams know straight away if they can or can't make it.


Oh, you bet. Low center of gravity is a big advantage in this game. You won't fall while climbing, you won't be easily tipped by collisions and you won't tip yourself over, either. :)

Here at PNW, I'm going to go out on a limb and sat that there aren't more than three 1-pt. robots that teams need to worry about, so more often than not, the side goals go unprotected.

It seems that at least half the period is focused on the ramps, so there's not a lot that's happening during free for all. We, in particular, load during defense and score during free for all.

I can't speak for others, but we've never won an autonomous period and we've won more matches than we've lost.

I've had no trouble keeping our team on task, but some of our alliance partners have not been paying attention to clock nor light and so they do dumb things and dumb times. What doesn't help is that the field announcer is often as confused as they are and, in several instances, has announced which alliance is on offense incorrectly. That'll mess with your head.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

From the NJ regional point of view:
2 robots on the ramp appears to be max, 3 I've yet to see done, more teams are having problems with the ramp then everyone has expected. If you have balls at 10 seconds, then don't go up the ramp, just get into open space and get that shot off, if you don't have any balls then if its open, communicate with the other drivers and start getting up on the ramp. (read on for more on this)

Nope, they are harassing the teams that are trying to get shots off. Mostly defencive robots are congregating within a 5 foot radius of the center ramp, that area also happens to be where 98% of all tipped robots i've seen are.
This all depends on the strength of your robot, if you can shoot, generally you are scoring points. If you can't shoot, your playing defence. Not soo many people are going for the ramp, I don't think I've seen any 25 point bonuses at all, and in most matches only one robot from either alliance makes it onto a platform. However it is common to see traffic jams at the base of a platform at then end of a match, some robots are being very effective at just sitting at the base of the ramp stopping people from going up.
If you have a working autonomous mode, you having a working shooter/dumper that alone sets you way ahead, however if you have a team that has a great robot but needs work on the autonomous its possible to make up the difference. I'd imagine winning autonomous will make a much bigger difference in playoffs though.
The light above the goal is how you check this, just look up across the field and if its green then you can shoot. If its not, then don't, the sounds though I found harder to pick up, but watch the light and look at the countdown clock.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Most of my comments are in the PNW Regional thread. Here's one I missed:

Ball sweeping is WAY more important than most teams thought. Slow sweepers suck. The very few great sweepers that can collect balls at full speed (like 848 and 254) rule. I think it is my greatest surprise in a mechanical sense.

I think the game rules. MUCH more fun to watch than last year, and few matches are determined by penalties.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

http://www2.usfirst.org/2006comp/Events/NJ/matches.html

I am very happy with this years game! I do not feel that the penalties are out of proportion. Above are the mach results for the New Jersey Regional. I am a little disappointed in what I'm seeing. Keep in mind these numbers are based on 55 matches!

* 18 matches that have had single digit scores.
* match #25 Teams 1563, 1412, 555, 1367, 896 and 293 all recieved zero points!
* Teams recieved zero points 9 times!
* 17 matches could have been won by all three teams climbing the ramp!

How is it possible for three robots to spend 2 minutes not moving a single ball into the low goals? or why can't any of these teams get up the ramp? What are they doing during autonomous?


If this game continues to score so low, teams should consider different strategies (I.E. get on the ramp, push balls to side goals, or do something during autonomous.)

This in no way is a hit against the game! This game was made for high scores!

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Penalties... I'm guessing, but I'm pretty certain... It happened to us once last year :(

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Has anyone at any of todays Regionals done an analysis of the match results with respect to the which alliance is on defence during the second period?
I would like to know if more winning alliances start on defence during the second period. From the match results posted on the FIRST website it is impossible to analyze this.

I watched some of the VCU webcasts today and found it quite difficult to follow what robot was on offence and defence at any given time due to the camera shots, etc. The cameras seemed to focus a lot close up on the pushing matches rather than show a wide angle view of the whole field.

It seems to me that it should be a significant advantage to be on defence during the second period so that you can collect as many balls
as possible to score while on offence during the third period. The fourth period seems to be a real battle ground with relatively low ball scoring and a majority of the period spent climbing/defending the ramp. Besides the obvious point advantage of winning autonomous is there a real strategic advantage to winning autonomous and therefore going on defence/ball collection mode first?

I guess what I am asking is what are the percentages of winning alliances that are on defence vs. offence during the second period (the first one after autonomous)?

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

some footage from the GSR:

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=44976

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I agree.Watch team 25, 103 and 1279 work together and you'll see that game the way they no doubr visualized it.25 is a serious threat for the championship in my opinion.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

My Thought's after watching the NASA/VCU regional on NASA TV:

-Game's insane
-Overall, seems like it will be fun at GLR
-Do not anticipate anything really to change as far as overall strategies are concerned. How they are played is a variable.
-Like the robots I saw on TV, just love em.
-Yet, it seemed that a lot had too high centers of gravity. Might pose problems.

Next week, I'll get to see the game in person, then I'll have a much better summary.

-Joe


[Edit] 1610, the Franklin robot, really good. Congrats to them on winning.;) There was also another one with a top shooter that had a really nice autonomous. Really loved those two. Then I found the one with some sort of cotton candy like bowl device on top to be pretty innovative. :cool: [/edit]

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Crucial if your a defense oriented bot/ have bumpers: bumpers+ramp+trying to block=easily tipable, i was scouting today and that is the major thing i noticed at one point today, 1274 was able to tip two of the opposing alliances robots,

in autonomous: if u can score in the center go for it, it gives you an early lead and you will get the 10 point bonus, at BAE these teams included but not limited to: Bob (319) , and kaizen blitz(1276), bob went to the finals and kaizen won.

one thing to watch out for, if you are a corner dumping bot, be careful of ur drop down mechanism to release the balls, from the stands it looks like it is diffucult to see the bot across the field and Wheres Waldo, 1547, was Dq'd twice in qualifying and once in ELIMINATION,

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Yeah, you got that right. It was hard enough to keep track of for me, and I'm a veteran of Strategy and Gaming!

I found myself asking teammates whether or not teams were offsides a great deal. And heaven forbid you were a spectator. I took more than one person outside to watch the animation again more than once. Hell, the whole concept of an alliance takes most non-FIRSTers some time to grasp.

I mean, this isn't really a gripe. It's simply a observation that...well, as one of my friends put it after watching 562's noodle machine spin balls around, "I would concentrate on the game but oooh...pretty spinning colors!"

Wow.

Also: what was up with the BAE scoring system? For almost all of the finals the scores were read but not displayed.

And can anyone from the match we were in vs. 296 (when we tied them 8 vs 8) explain how by the beard of Zeus we tied 8 to 8 when there were no penalties and the live scoring read 55 to 8?

Dude, I'd love some of that footage. Especially of Kaizan or Northern Force...both of those teams had an extreme :yikes: :ahh: :eek: factor when it came to shooting.

And really...even most veteran teams didn't master shooting...

--Petey

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I think everyone was at the wrong regional this weekend. NJ went really well and we didn't experience any of the problems other people are bringing up. The game is simple...whenever the green light above the colored ring is lit the corresponding allaince is on offense, and one member of the opposing allaince has to be the back bot.

As for shooting, we had some amazing shooters...25,103,293,522,1089 just to name a few. Once the members of 25 post some video it should be easier.

There was a glitch in the scoring system so when the elimination match scores were posted the winning allaince would have the correct scores, and the losing allaince would have 0...so that's probably why they didn't post the scores to avoid confusion.

I'm sure that all these problems will be resolved in future weeks.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

No, they had a weird glitch that looked like it was affecting the scores.

Like, the real-time scoring would read, "65-21", and the top score (score without penalties) would read that, and then there would no penalties, and then the final score would be "46-33" without explanation.

It was very strange and had I been the losing team on some of them, I would have raised the issue with the judges. For instance, we tied 296's alliance at one point 8-8 after they'd been leading us 55-8 in the real time scoring.

Oh, and 296 got screwed over on their only loss. They sight by the green light, and it didn't go on in autonomous. They have it on tape, and I saw it with my own eyes while it happened. However, rather than doing a field reset, the refs and judges merely said that it was impossible and that it couldn't have happened. Except for those anomalies, 296 would have been 9-0 at BAE.

--Petey

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I do know that the scoring system was even worse before the updates they added. That really bites that you guys got screwed over. At NJ if there was a problem with the field (ie: autonomous not firing, green lights not going on) and it was in fact the field fault, then we did have to replay the match...in fact we had to replay SF 1 Match 1 3 times before it ran correctly.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

It's really disturbing how many refs and judges appear to be shrugging problems off this year. I know team 1294 had 2 robots on the ramp at PNW, and they didn't get counted. The reffs eventually counted one, but not 2 (which would have won them the match) The full story is here

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

How can third-, fourth-, and fifth-year teams show up at tournaments 20+ pounds overweight? I am dumbstruck at how much swisscheesifying and component removage I saw at PNW. We were bummed that we were three pounds over (last year we were over by 20 ounces), and we know we aren't the sharpest knife in the FIRST drawer.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Hmm...

Well, since I'm a college student this year, I wasn't down on the field that much. I can't tell you how they interfaced personally.

I will tell you that I LOVED the addition of on-the-field reffing immediately after the field.

But I swear to you that on Saturday I saw about 10 offsides going uncalled. It was just weird...I don't know. I'll leave that judgement to people who interfaced with refs personally this year. All I can say for sure is that I was not impressed with the length and breadth of the technical difficulties at the BAE GSR this year, whether it be the inability to display the rankings or the befuddling scoring system that seemed consistently off.

Ah well. First year for progressive scoring, I think, so there are some understandable bugs to work out.

--Petey

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Are others as surprised as I am with the number of robots that end up tipped over?
I can understand those that flip over when climbing on the ramp, but I've seen lots that were in the middle of the field.
In one match I saw 2 robots pushing each other straight on and both flipping over backwards as the result (didn't either of these think about driving backwards?)
I would have thought by limiting the area of allowable interaction, that the robots wouldn't have tipped over as easily. Guess not.
Yes, Yes, Yes, - Know all about those that are top heavy are gonna be easier to tip - but I didn't think it would be often as I was seeing.
(Even with the cg 2 1/2 feet from the ground, you only have a very short moment arm with the contact zone being so close to the ground (2 1/2 to 8)
Anyways - maybe its simply a by-product of the amount and type of defensive tactics be applied with this years game format.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Nah, we didn't get screwed over...296 did! We got the benefit of the screwup. I just felt bad for them, honestly, because we tied them in a match where it seemed like we should have lost.

And meaubry...yeah a ton of robots tipped. It was surprising, but not entirely unexpected, and could be exploited (fairly) by smart robots.

--Petey

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Observations based upon participation in New Jersey Regional:

1. 25 is extremely good, but they were made even better by the facts that

A.) It seemed no one ever once tried to prevent them from loading up on human player ammo all day - starve an HP loaded only launcher and it's as tame as a kitten. If you are on offense, I highly doubt all 3 robots will be in position to score points, so use one of them to hinder HP loader bots from refilling while they are on defense.

B.) Few seemed to grasp the idea that low shooter + getting between the shooter and the center goal with your robot = not many balls getting into the center goal. Some teams aimed to disrupt 25 by setting up in the near starting position and running into their SIDE during autonomous, but that does no good when the robot has an auto-adjusting camera controlled turret to correct any side to side perturbations. There were numerous teams at that event who could have beaten 25 (and other autonomous low shooters who move to a fixed position on the field) to their launch position, gotten in FRONT of them, and blocked every single shot. I would have enjoyed a chance at accomplishing this feat, but alas......

2. ......THE *RANDOM* MATCH LIST GENERATOR IS STILL A PILE OF JUNK. We didn't face or ally with 25 once (a desirable thing for any newcomer to the New Jersey Regional to do, you would think - a major disappointment for our team), yet some teams faced them 2 times. FIX THE PROBLEM!!!!!

3. FIRST better get their act straight SOON when it comes to the numerous field control and scoring glitches, or you are going to have a mass uprising on your hands. I returned home to Warren, OH at 3:25 AM after driving back from New Jersey. This late return was due in no small part to the HOURS of delays teams and spectators had to endure from the ridiculous amount of restarts and field downtimes. This is at least the 2nd year in a row these problems have been permitted to leak into the competition season, especially during the first few weeks, and it seems even worse this year. FIRST, HATCH TECHNOLOGIES, and whomever else is responsible for developing the field control systems - FIX THE PROBLEM, or find the number of registrants for 1st week regionals dwindle away and die. WE ARE NOT YOUR GUINEA PIGS!!!! My registration fees are not there for you to spend on people who develop buggy, regional experience and audience interest-degrading software and hardware. If you do not do more to improve your quality control and accelerate your testing and debug, you may find those fees absent from future seasons. I will gladly pay a lot less money to someone who isn't FIRST to attend more offseason events like the IRI where the probability of playing on fully debugged fields is 80000% greater. This is one area where I will be more gracious when FIRST starts being more professional. I can only imagine how these numerous problems could hurt teams who work their hardest to scrape together enough dough to attend a single Week 1 event.

4. This game has the potential to be quite fun. Offense will get better (much better, in our case) as the weeks go on as teams improve their shooters and start to understand the game better. Thankfully, defense is back with a vengeance, albeit perhaps too much so. I witnessed a lot of tough pushing and blocking - no free license to score for the offensive powers this year! You gotta earn it, and that's wonderful. Lots of high CG and/or short wheelbase robots are tipping over on the ramp or even through normal operation in the middle of the playing field, self inflicted or otherwise. I did see a fair amount of what I would define to be long distance ramming and penalizable (is that a word?) tipping that wasn't flagged. The 25 driving up on 293, 293 backing up to avoid tipping them (which I'm pretty sure they didn't legally have to do if they didn't want to - why should you have to limit your movements to protect a robot that mistakenly drove up on you and not the other way around?), 25 driving underneath 293 seconds later, and 25 continuing to drive forward until 293 fell over sequence in the elims raised a few eyebrows in my area of the stands when no flags were thrown. I didn't see it, but 48's robot also apparently got under 56 and accidentally tipped them in a qualifying match without penalty (we apologized to them following the match). With the tipping rules, I believe intent isn't a factor. It's black and white - if you initiate the act of having one robot's drivetrain be on top of another's and a tipped robot results, you must deal with the consequences. If you get under another bot and push them over, you receive the penalties. If you drive up on top of another robot and you end up on your butt as a result, tough cookies - don't do that next time!

5. Why in the world do so many HP's chuck balls up toward the corner goals like crazy during the 2nd and 3rd periods when they are on offense? Does anyone realize how few of those balls actually make it into the goals? All you are doing is giving opposing backbots with ball collectors more opportunities to load up and use those unrealized points against you. It also clutters the audience's view and makes it harder to see where robot shots are coming from. Save your balls in your ball corrals for human player robot loading or feeding directly to the backbot(s) during defense. And remember, balls in your ball corral are balls that can't ever be used by your opposition against you. In the 4th period, with a relatively uncluttered field and clear line of sight, that's when you start firing away at those corner goals. And make sure the balls are ROLLING, not bouncing, well before they reach the ramp.

6. Winning autonomous is absolutely critical to an alliance's overall chances of success during a match. I think the proof is in the pudding here. Most people have been saying this for months, and the early regional action is proving their predictions true.


Despite all the problems, the New Jersey Regional proved to be a fun, spirited albeit way too freaking long event filled with a bunch of great teams. Our team is very excited heading into Buckeye next week. I have heard, however, that the New Jersey field is scheduled to be shipped to Cleveland next. This makes me cringe (although I'm sure all the fields have been experiencing problems). I hope the problems plaguing the field control systems and causing stress for all the valiant volunteers responsible for keeping it limping along are minimized.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Autonomous is huge. Not because of the bonus, but because of the beautiful, open opportunity it gives you to score 10 balls in the center goal. If you are a powerful shooter then you get defended and pushed all around.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

We were in a pushing match with another strong robot at the VCU regional in the quarter final. Both robots simply pushed so hard that they flipped. I don't know why our driver didn't back off, but things happen quickly when you have a lot of power and a lot of traction. Our robot can do a pretty good wheelie from a standing start, and the CG is probably not even 2 ft. off the ground, and weight is almost centered over the wheels that lift. The tall structures on both robots didn't help matters.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

My thoughts on week 1:

From a "designing" and "playing" perspective, I really think FIRST got this game right, FOR US. It truly allowed teams of all levels and capabilities to be useful in many capacities. Like FIRST Frenzy (2004), there were many different opportunities to score, but unlike it, there was no one powerhouse move, with the exception of the ramp for the 25-point bonus, which often required cooperation. This provides all teams with the ability to make an effective robot, and if a team knew their limits and built accordingly, they could make an effective machine that didn't have to shoot balls.

I do agree with a previous poster, though, that allowing the autonomous-winning team to go on defense first is VERY one-sided. This is largely due to the fact that a alliance that wins auton 30 - 27 (10 balls made in vs 9) now has the chance to get even more balls AND gets a 10-point bonus. That's QUITE lopsided, and as I mentioned back at our kickoff, it is critical to win it.

That said, there are some awesome new programming opportunities to get autonomous working better, and thanks largely to Kevin Watson, I actually did see quite a few teams trying to get the camera module working. We got it working in our pits toward the end of competition, but didn't want to risk using it out on the field when we were getting close to the end. We're looking forward to testing it more in Atlanta, though, and hope to see more teams use it like 1403, 103, and 25 (just to name a few) did.

For untrained spectators, unfamiliar with FIRST, it is more difficult to see what's going on and know what's happening. This does take some of the appreciation of the game away, but seeing lots of balls flying and robots tipping can still be amusing.

Once again, having a first-week regional means having an enormous amount of issues with the field. This has happened before, but as T. Hoffman said, it's awful that first week regionals are often guinea pigs for FIRST fields. I pray that they can come up with a new system for doing this in the future.

All in all, I really enjoy this game, and while it's not as spectator friendly as Triple Play, it opened many more doors for teams, and I like seeing a variety of robots again!

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I thought that the defence aspect of the game has been missing the previous two seasons. It adds a new layer to the strategy. Yesterday at PNW I saw, what the announcer described as "the carnage", 4 robots tipped over turning it into a 1v1 match. And, I saw all 6 robots on their respective ramps during one of the finals matches. Final 1-2 all of our points were scored during auton and we won the match 14 to 5. So i would say that auton is huge. Over all i like this game and found myself cheering out of my seat for much of the day.

P.S. Tipping is part of this years game like it or not.

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where there any ramming penalties given during auto-mode? i saw multiple teams fly across the field and hit the opposing robots in an attempt to block them.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I didn't hear of any ramming penalties at all at VCU, which surprised me, because I saw a lot of hard hits.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

1626 nearly destroyed themselves one match.
They hit so hard a large piece of their robot flew off and then it raced to the other side of the field and smashed into that side.
Treat your babies with care folks. Dail down the speed or program it to stop short so you flush six weeks of hard work down the tubes due to a programming mistake.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I think that tipping is a part of this years game, because you can tip another robot easily and accidentally (ESPECIALLY if they are on the ramp)

I know that right now my team's defensive autonomous is NOT at full speed due to the fact that we don't want to break anything if we go ramming into the side of the field (which the program does every time if it doesn't hit a robot on the way)

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I posted these thoughts after day 1 at the BAE Granite State Regional:
After Saturday, here are my additional comments/revisions:

1. Like I mentioned after Friday, autonomous is so important for the very reason that you aren't covered. The only exception to what I posted before is what team 1276 did: they climbed the opponent's ramp and shot from there. This gave them perfect accuracy, while at the same time making them undependable. Many teams could not climb the ramp at all, and while they pretty much all could in the elimination rounds, none were really built to climb it easily (it's just such a deceptively hard task). They had absolutely forever to take their shots but at the same time did not need long to line up and take them. As far as I know, they only had a defensive autonomous mode, but it didn't matter because they just picked shooters with strong autonomous modes for their alliance, which let them interfere with the opponent's autonomous while their alliance took its own shots. They would be the only team to score anything of note in the rest of the game (as a result, their alliance swept in all their elimination matches easily to win the regional). My congratulations to team 1276 on solving this years game!

2. If this regional taught me anything about what it takes to end up picking on Saturday, it's simply that you need to be consistent. You need not score an awful lot, just that you must be a constant contributor. The number 1 seed at the Granite State Regional (151) was, to be brutally honest, not a team that I would even imagine picking. They were a human-loaded push-bot that tried to score via a low-mounted wheel on the side of their bot, and would generally only score a maximum of about 5 balls in the corner goals over the entire match (their alliance was eliminated in the quarterfinals 2-1). The key was that they would score 2-3 points in autonomous, play strong on defence, and climb the ramp every single game. This consistently scored a respectable number of points, and got them to the number 1 seed. My congratulations to team 151!

3. I was wrong in assuming that the scores would be much higher on Saturday than Friday. They may have been by a thin margin, but by no amount great enough to change the strategy of the game. The points I made after Friday pretty much all still apply.

4. I saw the games in the elimination rounds play out two distinct ways:
a. Both teams would similarly in autonomous, and the ten point bonus became a difficult but surmountable advantage for one of the alliances. The competition would come down to whether or not the other team could sneak through enough points, and getting up the ramp could sometimes swing games (usually to secure games, the alliance winning would have one robot defend their opponent's ramp, and it always worked). Usually, the team that won autonomous won these games.
b. One team scores 20-30 in autonomous while the other scores almost nothing. The winning team has a 25-30+ point advantage, and wins handily. In fact, the team that loses autonomous tends to defend so poorly (their moral seems understandably crushed, plus they are forced to focus on offense too much to have even the slightest chance) that the winners often win by a 40-50+ point margin and the only penalty that means anything is disqualification (which actually happened in the semifinals to one alliance).

It is my bold prediction that while teams will get better on offence, teams will similarly get better on defence, so most qualifying and nearly all elimination games will continue to follow these models for the entire season.







That pretty much wraps it all up. Good luck to all the teams competing at upcoming regionals. My team (166) will be at Atlanta, hopefully doing better than we did this weekend (we finally have a shooting autonomous just about worked out :D ). Please feel free to comment on my observations.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

If you look at the videos of the semifinals and finals of BAE(those are the only ones I've found so far), which had a link posted earlier and can be found at http://www.team195.com/video/BAE2K6/ you can look at 1276's strategy and how people attempted to defend them. If you look, other robots only tried blocking them during two matches. The first of those matches 1276 DID NOT get up the ramp and score- they were successfully blocked from accomplishing that. The second of those two matches was a failure, because although the other team tried to defend them they actually pushed 1276 up the ramp a little, jostling them but from the wrong direction and helping rather then hindering.

In conclusion, I believe that although 1276 was brilliant and their strategy very good, it is easy enough to block with either
a) A robot on the ramp pushing them (I think)
or
b) A big robot or two that blocks them before they get on the ramp.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

It seems to me that the intent to have a more 'full contact' game may have gone a bit too far - I have nothing against relaxing the hitting rules a bit, but it seems that now it's not being enforced at all. We were down on our side, completely out of one match, and our opponents kept hitting us, smashing in our shooter and breaking two welds on our frame...

Seems that something like that deserves a penalty at least.

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I agree - that is deserving of at least a penalty if not more. I don't think that it would be easy to call though. It might be kind of like reffing soccer - You don't know when it starts needing a penalty until years of experience (which these refs don't get to have) and once something bad happens you haven't been calling the penalty for the same push, just this time something broke, so what should you do?
There are cases where robots are on the ground that I think shouldn't deserve a penalty, however. For instance, if a robot was pushing, knocked themselves and the other robot down, the other robot was on the opposing team's ramp though, and an alliance of the other robot moves the first robot to get the other one off the ramp. Also, if it is an alliance member and they push the robot onto the ramp and get extra points, I think it is fine. I saw both of these happen...

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http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=44930

i saw this early and often on VCU's webcast.....i still don't understand the logic in it.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Last year I was very critical of the game because match after match robots did nothing during autonomous. This year the game gives some serious motivation to do something. I saw allot of autonomous action this weekend. Still there are to many robots that apparently have no auto strategy. First did their part to encourage auto. Between the sensors included with the kit and the easy-c functions, there is no reason that any team should not be doing something this year. So I consider this year a step forward.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

We were 45 minutes behind at the end of Friday, but had gotten our match cycle time down to 5 minutes by then. We did lose a lot of time early in the day due to scoring system and field control issues, but were able to make most of it back. We actually ran ahead of schedule on Saturday, and had few major system issues.

Bear in mind that this year's field and scoring system is much more complex than ever before - necessarily so because of the demands of counting balls and enabling/disabling goals. Sarah, the Good Scorekeeping Fairy of NJ, said the scoring system is the best she's seen and she has been head scorekeeper three years running.

Actually, the NJ field is on its way to Pittsburgh. Cleveland gets a brand spanking new field.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I also saw a bot push a fallen opposing robot gently aside so that the ramp was clear for the ramp dash at the end. No smashing, though, just a gentle nudge in front of the low goal. It also blocked the low goal completely, which might have been the second part of a brilliant move.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

Human players don't know the rules. I spoke to a lot of them after they had thrown balls at the 1 point goals and the celebrated. They didn't realize that they only get points when the green light is on.

Hard hitting, exciting, fast paced heck it sounds like hockey. I really think that there is a lot for spectators to watch. I liked the way the one ref pointed in the offensive zone at the beginning of the period.

Team 25 really drove over one robot but that was after they were almost pushed over twice by that same bot. I don't think that they were out of line for that move. I saw no ramming penalties either.

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I notice that alot in FIRST.
Alot of teams don't follow the rules and that includes drivers. You would think teams would take more care to at least know the basics and that's why the game so often looks so chaotic.

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This does seem to be an overly aggressive game. I heard some team members saying it was more like battle-bots than a first competition. I do think there's something wrong when we are asked to develop highly sensitive targeting systems and then encourage teams to ram them off target. It's kind of like allowing tackling in a basketball game. Maybe there should be free shots for fouls.

I love First and it's mission, but I think this game seems to celebrate aggression as much as if not more than science and technology. One of our long time mentors has often mentioned that his favorite game was the one where four bots worked together to balance on a ramp competing for the best time. Now that's a celebration of science, technology, and collaboration! Maybe it wouldn't play as well to a large venue, but I think it was really more what Dean's vision in creating First is about. Make a better world through gracious professionalism, not make better machines for fighting.

That said, I do also have to say we love shooting those balls!

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Week 1: Thoughts, comments

Disapointed so far. I expect to see something better (in every respect) at GLR - If not there, then :( :confused: :mad: .

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It is pretty amazing to me how much things have changed in a year. Last year if you just accidentally brushed a robot in the loading zone you were hit with a major 30 point penalty. This year full contact is encouraged and even high speed ramming is not even being penalized via the rules from what I can tell from the webcasts.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I think they should be calling some ramming penalties. I saw at least 2 robots get completely blindsided by other robots going full speed. Calling more penalties will give those teams with high goal scoring robots a better chance to show their stuff. As it stands, only EXCEPTIONAL shooters are doing well.

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I just want to say that while it was a programming error, we were very far off from "destroying" ourselves. What you saw fly off was nothing more then a lexan side panel, held on by velcro, and most likely it wasnt properly secured. We wouldn't do something completely idiotic without knowing the consequences. I was the driver, and the only thing I became concerned about was hitting one of our own alliance members. Other then that, it was somewhat fun to watch.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

I've had some time to sit and think about the game, and honestly I'm still not sure whether or not I like it yet. Watching it over a webcast won't sway my decision, I'll have to wait until BMR to ultimately decide.

However, I will say that from first glance, this game appears to be not as exciting as 2003, 2004, or 2005.

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1547 would just like to announce that: THE DISQUALIFICATION PROBLEM IS NOW FIXED!!! thank you :) BOO YAH GRANDMA there will be no more problems (knock on wood) with us driving into the corner goals.

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Did you just add something that will prevent your little ramp from actually going into the goal?

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We added into the code that we could not drive backwards while the ramp is down. We cannot get disqualified if another robot pushes us into the goal can we?

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You cannot, as long as your robot is not built in a way that damages the field.

Re: Week 1: Thoughts, comments
 

not now atleast. It's now specified in Update 15.